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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Town Analysis. Major imbalance.
Thread: Town Analysis. Major imbalance. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Midler
Midler


Hired Hero
High Priestess Elf Queen
posted April 14, 2002 04:29 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Midler on 19 Apr 2002

Town Analysis. Major imbalance.

First of, I wanna say, despite the major Asylum imbalance, that this is a great game, with all it's new features greatly improved from HOMM III. I definitely like the "melee/ranged attack at the same time", creature spell-casting, individual creature growth rates, and first strike features. Choosing one of the 2 creatures for each level also promotes greater strategy and I like it. But... there are still some flaws, like all games, and I just thought I'd point those out and see if u guys agree or not. Notice level one creatures are majorly toned down?

Ok i'll post the towns in order of favour!

ACADEMY: Definitely my fave town. Its magic spells really do not focus on one theme, and is a mix of everything else (except Summoning), but I play it more on its creatures. The town lacks flyers, but I love it because I have a "defensive" playing style. I think this town is best for Intermediate players.
Halfling- not much to say. Giantslayer isn't really TOO noticable, since Level 4 creatures have high defense and Halfling have low attack.
Dwarf- well, majorly toned down from III and II. I don't even use it as ground troops that much (I let Nagas/Golems do the attacking) cuz they're even more fragile than before.
Mage- useless in low numbers, but can deal A LOT in large numbers. However, Poison and Magic Fist are the spells I dominantly use.
Gold Golems- Wow, cool creatures. The only setback is their speed.
Genies- Like the Mage, powerful in large numbers. Create Illusion on Dragon Golems/Titans is pretty cool too.
Naga- WICKED warriors. Sure, their only special is no retaliation, but given that skill, they can last long in battle.
Titan- toned down from III... which I like because I thought it was too powerful for being the ONLY level 4 ranged creature. I like its special abilities.
Dragon Golems- I used to hate this for its design, but I gave it a chance, and wow I like this creature. I usually pair it up with Genies and Golems instead of Nagas and Mages.

STRONGHOLD- VERY Balanced, and that's one characteristic I look for in a town. Excellent for beginners. I just love this town, but I don't understand how Mermaids and Sea Monsters fit here. Oh well. Too bad neither one is recruitable. I'd love to use a Mermaid in battle.
Berserker- I usually put these things in the back, cuz they get themselves killed by charging blindlessly in the battle field.Oh well, I still like them more than Dwarves.
Centaur- If ONLY they made the centaurs in III ranged... geez. Oh well, Centaurs are great creatures BUT! they have such a pathetic growth rate.
Harpy- I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I think anyone can benefit more from choosing Nomads instead of Harpies. Though they were toned up from III (I found them almost useless in III), I still prefer Nomads over these.
Nomads- the strongest level 2 creature! One of my fave creatures. Fast AND durable. Need I say more?
Ogre Mage- same growth rate as Nomads, and VERY cheap. Perhaps their slow speed will prove to be their only setback.
Cyclops- One of my fave creatures. AREA ATTACK? wow! It's a tough decision to choose from Cyclops and Ogre Mages... but I usually choose Cyclops anyway.
Thunderbird- cheap... and weak. But their thunderbolt is toned up from III... still, I think I can benefit more from picking Behemoths over these.
Behemoth- not much to say I guess. Good level 4 creatures, but not exceptional.

NECROPOLIS: I like the 2 obvious branches. Y'know, the demon branch and the undead branch. I think it's a good idea cuz it adds more variety. This town for me is tied with Preserve, but I found Preserve's creatures rather weak. If u choose the Demon branch, this town's great for Intermediate. If u choose the Undead branch, this town's great for Beginners! Good set of spells too! Too bad u hafta use ur creatures instead of ur magic against Black Dragons.
Skeleton- Weaker than before, but I think it's good they toned it down a bit cuz they can become really powerful with Necromancy.
Imp- Better than before, and an even "stronger" design. Not much else to say... perhaps fragile but that's it.
Ghost- Well, another weak creature added to the undead branch. Still, Vampires take away that setback.
Cerebus- Good creatures, but doesn't really stick out. Sturdy at that too. With no retaliation and area attack, a good infantry unit.
Venom Spawn- OMG, I've never picked these creatures over Vampires before. Perhaps I should do that now *plays HOMM IV*
Vampire- cheap (not money wise, but unfair wise). Very cheap. Man, I guess the trick to killing these creatures is to kill its allied creatures first. Cuz I always try to concentrate on killing these first, even with a slightly stronger force and I end up losing.
Bone Dragon- Again not much to say. Still a great creature.
Devil- ugly ugly design. One reason why I never chose this over B. Dragons! Perhaps I should do that now.

PRESERVE
Tied with Necropolis for me. Honestly, I thought this town was toned down. It still has some good pros (Creature Portal for an extra unit, Summoning SKILL, not spells) but I really don't like the nature spells. Out of the summon spells, the only ones I liked were Summon Faerie Dragon, Mantis, Phoenix, and Griffin. Other than the summon spells, Nature magic doesn;t have a lot of unique spells either. Snake Strike is basically like First Stirke, Wasp Swarm is like Confusion, etc. And where are the Dendroids? I think this town really starts out weak.
Sprite- Thank goodness for no retaliation! These things don't have to worry about Frist Strike and all that stuff. Yes, they are fragile, but toned up from "previous" Sprites.
Wolf- I found this creature almost as useless as the Dwarves. Man, I had HIGH HOPES for the Wolf being in the PReserve, but its low weekly growth, slow speed and low stats greatly disappointed me. Two attacks don't cut it when ur almost dead.
Elf- Are these things weak or what? I had high hopes for these too. Despite the 2 attacks and first strike, I found Elves not too good for the low growth rate, low stats (especially HP), and the fact that their "Second" arrow hits AFTER the enemy has retaliated. Geez.
White Tiger- Honestly,though its clear that they're better than Elves stat-wise, Elves are the only recruitable ranged unit in the Preserve (which I find displeasing, for I think Druids, instead of those cheap imitations Monks, should be brought back). They're strong, but doesn't move fast enough to make a difference in the first round.
Griffin- MY FAVE Nature creature. Actually, the only Nature creature that has impressed me so far. I luv summoning these things!
Unicorn- Blinding is much better now, but I found more pros choosing a Griffin instead of a Unicorn. Too bad, like the wolves and elves, I had high hopes for this. Nice design though.
Faerie Dragon- the ONLY Nature creature I haven't tried yet because the only maps so far I've been playing are the ones with Asylum as an enemy. My brother says they're good though, but useless against Black Dragons. (which I find totally unfair)
Phoenix- one of the strongest level 4 creatures, and rightfully so. This thing has existed ever since the first installement as one of the best, and it should stay that way.


HAVEN
This town is way down here for me for personal reasons. 1) I've always hated human towns 2)the classic Druid unit was monopolized into the Monk 3) Champions are level 4 units 4)surprisingly, there are 3 ranged dwellings... which I think should be more fitting in the Preserve, just for old times' sakes 5)Humans are the units of technology, and so should have the mechanical units and be considered the Order town. Yes, that's it, personal reasons. I also find it too hard to believe that monk is a level 3 and Champions are level 4. (Remember, this originated in the "Altar of Wishes" so don't blame me... Also, as if u haven't hated a game/town before for personal reasons!)
Squire: Well, stun's great, but not much else.
Crossbowman: The no ranged penalty is great, but they use Crossbows: weapons designed for accuracy and don't go far. Compare it with the Elves using a longbow: weapons that are shot in one direction, goes far, but inaccurate.
Ballista: ANOTHER creature with no ranged penalty? Hmmph, lacking diversity, same with Order having 2 casters.
Pikeman: Well, it's actually better than I had anticipated.
Monk: Well, I still sometimes choose these things over Crusaders, but I just hate it being such a bad replica of the Druids!
Crusader: Well, weaker than I had anticipated for an infantry, but I like its death bonuses.
Champion:... Never chose these things over Angels, don't think I ever will. Somebody persuade me to give these a chance.
Angel: I like resurrection, same amount of saved lives no matter the #s of Angels... or at least that's what my bro says. Good to spearate a large number of Angels into 2 squads, maybe even three.

ASYLUM
Well, my main complaint and I want changed is the fact that it has not only some of the best creatures, but also has a great set of spells. I don't think it should have ALL the direct damage spells, along with other blessing spells such as First Strike (shouldn't this be with Life?), the formerly Earth spell Implosion, and the the spell that is highly needed by the other towns to get rid of Black Dragons in large numbers-slayer/Mass slayer.
Bandit: 2 strikes would make more sense. I find it odd that it's the level 1 creature with the highest growth rate.
Orc: Hmm, worse than expected, that's all I can say. Someone tell me, are these pigs or elephants demi-humans?
Medusa: AAAH! Stone gaze is soo...soo... ok let me put it this way. I like the fact that stone gaze is now long ranged, but I had 11 phoenixes against a large number of Medusae. They managed to kill one Phoenix and stoned 4 more! *sigh*
Minotaur: Was it 35% block? sounds more like 40, or even 50%. Oh well, good creature for ur side, but not for the enemy. It's a tough choice I think to choose from either Medusae or Minotaurs.
Efreet: Don't like them, but the Fire Shield has been improved.
Nightmare: Aren't these detah creatures? Oh well, I really like these things! One of my fave new creatures.
Hydra: ...Would u choose this over Black Dragons?
Black Dragons: Well we all know the massive casulaties this thing can make even with 2 Black Dragons.

So yeah that's it. I think there are some useless skills like Giantslayer for a Halfling, and universal branching choices such as choosing Black Dragons, or Angels. So wouldn't u want something to balance those out? Like, tone down the Black Dragons and improve the Hydra (it is a slow infantry after all)? Or maybe give Unicorns to actually cast blind, like nightmares can cast Terror. Ya know what I mean?


____________
"I am light. I am dark. I must give my life to serve; not even death can release me." -Selenia, Dark Angel

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 15, 2002 12:10 AM

ACADEMY: Definitely my fave town. Its magic spells really do not focus on one theme, and is a mix of everything else (except Summoning), but I play it more on its creatures. The town lacks flyers, but I love it because I have a "defensive" playing style. I think this town is best for Intermediate players.

=> The genie is a flyer.
=> I don't think any of the town fits intermediate players better or worse than others. The only town which is considerably easier is Necropolis. The tow towns that are more difficult to play is Stronghold and Academy. Why? Because it COSTS MUCH MORE to build the towns up. You're unlikely to get your level 3 creatures in the first week.


STRONGHOLD- VERY Balanced, and that's one characteristic I look for in a town. Excellent for beginners.

=> No, the buildings are just too expensive for a beginners town. Both the level 2 and level 3 prerequisties. And the biggest disadvantage with T-birds (and also earlier with Titans) is that they require Castle to be built.

I just love this town, but I don't understand how Mermaids and Sea Monsters fit here. Oh well. Too bad neither one is recruitable. I'd love to use a Mermaid in battle.
Berserker- I usually put these things in the back, cuz they get themselves killed by charging blindlessly in the battle field.Oh well, I still like them more than Dwarves.
Centaur- If ONLY they made the centaurs in III ranged... geez. Oh well, Centaurs are great creatures BUT! they have such a pathetic growth rate.
Harpy- I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I think anyone can benefit more from choosing Nomads instead of Harpies. Though they were toned up from III (I found them almost useless in III), I still prefer Nomads over these.
Nomads- the strongest level 2 creature! One of my fave creatures. Fast AND durable. Need I say more?
Ogre Mage- same growth rate as Nomads, and VERY cheap. Perhaps their slow speed will prove to be their only setback.
Cyclops- One of my fave creatures. AREA ATTACK? wow! It's a tough decision to choose from Cyclops and Ogre Mages... but I usually choose Cyclops anyway.
Thunderbird- cheap... and weak. But their thunderbolt is toned up from III... still, I think I can benefit more from picking Behemoths over these.
Behemoth- not much to say I guess. Good level 4 creatures, but not exceptional.

NECROPOLIS: I like the 2 obvious branches. Y'know, the demon branch and the undead branch. I think it's a good idea cuz it adds more variety. This town for me is tied with Preserve, but I found Preserve's creatures rather weak. If u choose the Demon branch, this town's great for Intermediate. If u choose the Undead branch, this town's great for Beginners! Good set of spells too! Too bad u hafta use ur creatures instead of ur magic against Black Dragons.

=> You're not penalized for mixing undead creatures with demons, but do note that you get a -2 morale if you mix undead creatures with order or chaos aligned creatures. So if you want to hire and develope Lords or Thieves you would probably do well to hire some demons. My own fave build-up is Cerberi, Vampires and Devils.

Skeleton- Weaker than before, but I think it's good they toned it down a bit cuz they can become really powerful with Necromancy.

=> Necromancy and the transformer is no longer for only Skeletons. Actually, you want GM necromancy as soon as possible so you can gain 2-4 Vampires each battle (Necromancy doesn't work on mechanichal, undead and elementals.)

Imp- Better than before, and an even "stronger" design. Not much else to say... perhaps fragile but that's it.

=> Imps are very good. Fast enough to not slow down your hero and capable of recking spellcasting for enemy creatures and heroes. I like them MUCH better than the skeletons.

Ghost- Well, another weak creature added to the undead branch. Still, Vampires take away that setback.
Cerebus- Good creatures, but doesn't really stick out. Sturdy at that too. With no retaliation and area attack, a good infantry unit.

=> Ghosts are not bad. The aging they do on their enemy is a very good effect. Ghosts are also fast enough not to slow you down. This is an advantage they have over cerberi. On the other hand Cerberi mix better with other alignements.

Venom Spawn- OMG, I've never picked these creatures over Vampires before. Perhaps I should do that now *plays HOMM IV*

=> Venom Spawn are good but is also a slow creature. Myself I prefer Vampires.

Vampire- cheap (not money wise, but unfair wise). Very cheap. Man, I guess the trick to killing these creatures is to kill its allied creatures first. Cuz I always try to concentrate on killing these first, even with a slightly stronger force and I end up losing.

=> Vampires are probably rightly priced. They are expensive grow slowly, but once you get up that GM Necromancy you can boost your vampire production to ridiculous amounts.

Bone Dragon- Again not much to say. Still a great creature.
Devil- ugly ugly design. One reason why I never chose this over B. Dragons! Perhaps I should do that now.

=> Devils are good. They cn summon Ice Demons and this special is very good.

I'll see if I have time to comment on the other towns later.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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FuriousGeorge
FuriousGeorge


Hired Hero
posted April 15, 2002 04:31 AM
Edited By: FuriousGeorge on 14 Apr 2002

I think your analysis is only halfway complete. Towns & monsters aren't the entire equation anymore, with heroes actively fighting, and there being so many powerful spells.

ORDER
Heroes:
Life/Order/Death magic, Tactics, Nobility. A damn strong setup, the 2nd best in the game. I always stick a L1 noble and L1 Knight in all my castles, even for just garrison duty.
Life & Order are the 2 parts of the powerful 3 magic types, and they combo extremely well together (martyr-illusion, anyone?).
Also, the University allows you to create advanced classes easily.
Units:
The 2 spellcasting units give Order a lot of firepower. Ranged, no range penalties, and no retaliation. Uber. The wizards have a huge advantage in Poison, the best damage spell over long fights & can ignore obstacles. The genies, Create Illusion.
Nothing exceptional in the rest.

DEATH
Heroes:
Death/Chaos/Order magic. Tactics. Nobility. Except, if you're using Undead it boils down to Death Magic & Tactics. My big beef w/ Undead is that their abilities don't make up for their penalties: which is -2 morale to other units and no morale bonuses for themselves. What good is a Death Knight (tactics) who can't use leadership for his undead? Morale not only allows a unit to go first, but also adds +25% to Attack, a rather large bonus.
Units:
The vampire is great, except against other undead, mechanical, elementals, or illusions. That's a lot of exceptions. Versus the computer, no problem. Versus a human, i think this is exploitable.
The non-Undead side looks like a better overall lineup to me: Cerberus/Venom Spawn/Devil.
In terms of raw firepower, it's not there. You're going to have to make use of the Death special abilities to win.

What this faction badly needs is some damage enhancement for it's special units. Spells like Misfortune should really be in the Death spell list, not Chaos. With a splash of Chaos or Order, i think Death can do very well.

MIGHT
The lack of magic is an interesting 'disadvantage'. It's damn easy to just take another town and get a mage. I think this disadvantage is highly dependent on Scenario.

Breeding Pit is the best support building in the game.

Berserkers, yes they die a lot but they're worth it. They're better than a few L2 units.
Nomad - not exciting but better than a Harpy.
Ogre Mage vs. Cyclops: spawn rate is key here. The Ogre Magi spawn twice as fast. As far as numbers go, the Ogre Magi blow Cyclops out of the water. The key question, can you get your Ogre Magi to the enemy in time? Basically, do you have magic or not?
Behemoth vs Thunderbird: a bit of the same question. Once in contact, the Behemoth is much better. But will he ever get there.
 
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Midler
Midler


Hired Hero
High Priestess Elf Queen
posted April 15, 2002 07:57 PM

=> The genie is a flyer.
=> I don't think any of the town fits intermediate players better or worse than others. The only town which is considerably easier is Necropolis. The tow towns that are more difficult to play is Stronghold and Academy. Why? Because it COSTS MUCH MORE to build the towns up. You're unlikely to get your level 3 creatures in the first week.

-I know the Genie is a flyer!! Do u understand what "this town lacks flyers" mean? For one thing, the primary purpose of the Genie is to cast spells. Its strength is not even par with all the other level 3 & 4 flyers. That's why I said, this town lacks flyers.
-I disagree...especially with Order. Building a Treasury for the Nagas will just reclaim back the gold in due time. Building Genies are even easier to build. These cost about the same as building Efreetis/Nightmares. Sheesh. Building Ogre Magis are even much easier and the Cyclops only building perequisite- the Wrestling Pits cost very little.

=> You're not penalized for mixing undead creatures with demons, but do note that you get a -2 morale if you mix undead creatures with order or chaos aligned creatures. So if you want to hire and develope Lords or Thieves you would probably do well to hire some demons. My own fave build-up is Cerberi, Vampires and Devils.

=>Already knew wut u were talking about.

Skeleton- Weaker than before, but I think it's good they toned it down a bit cuz they can become really powerful with Necromancy.

=> Necromancy and the transformer is no longer for only Skeletons. Actually, you want GM necromancy as soon as possible so you can gain 2-4 Vampires each battle (Necromancy doesn't work on mechanichal, undead and elementals.)

=>Already knew that too.

=> Vampires are probably rightly priced. They are expensive grow slowly, but once you get up that GM Necromancy you can boost your vampire production to ridiculous amounts.

-Sigh... another misinterpretation. I said "cheap" as not being money wise! And I think the fact that they're expensive and have a pathetic growth rate is fair...because as u said, they can be grown to large amounts. My only complaint is its imbalance with V Spawns... V Spawns cost the same and have the same growth rate... and yet I can't stop thinking of its inferiority over the Vampires.

=> Devils are good. They cn summon Ice Demons and this special is very good.

-I know that. Though they can move anywhere, they're weaker than Bone Dragons and is still susceptible to mind spells.

I'll see if I have time to comment on the other towns later.


____________
"I am light. I am dark. I must give my life to serve; not even death can release me." -Selenia, Dark Angel

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 15, 2002 09:20 PM

About Genies. You must be joking! Some people believe Genies are the BEST creature in the game. I haven't played with Genies much but their stats and spell selection looks VERY VERY promising. Academy could not ask for a better Flyer on third level. And at growth rate of 6/week, they're supposed to be a bit weaker in their stats than Nagas who grow by 3/week.

Lacks Flyers I read as Misses flyer as in has no at all. AFAIK this is a normal interpretation of lacks although lacks could also mean has too few.

Spellcasting flyers are among the best creatures in the game from what I've seen so far. Angels, Devils, Genies, Faerie Dragons and Genies are all excellent creatures.

Yes, but you hamper development in the beginning. In a town with a tavern and torture chamber built, the Necro player can purchase the cerberi dwelling on day 1 and the vampire dwelling on day 2 and the player would still have the money to buy the 2 vampires that become available.

The academy player instead has to buy the level 2 pre-requisite, the level 2, the expensive treasury and then get the money for the genie/naga dwelling. On the normal difficulties I believe you'd exhaust your starting/money or resources when you build the level 2 and no latter than building the treasury. You then have to scrape together the cost of the genie dwelling from the map before you can build it. Necropolis has no such problem. You can equip the two vamps on one/two heroes as their only troops, and you can take out roughly a company of level 1s with no losses. And this applies from day 2 of the game.

Stronghold is handicapped mainly at the level 2. Nomad requires Caravan, 4000g + res, which normally you would build after your level 3. Harpies require Citadel 7500g + res. So to get Cyclops you must either have built Citadel or Caravan.

To get Vampires you need Tavern (500g + 2wood but usually prebuilt), Torture Chamber (1500 but usually prebuilt), Cages ( 3000g +4wood +1 sulpur), Mansion (6250g + 8 wood + 8 crystal). Total cost of: 11250g , 14 wood, 1 sulphur and 8 crystal. If you play advanced you usually have this by day four, at worst you may have to trade for some crystal.

If you count with having Tavern and Torture chamber pre-built you need 9250g, 12 wood, 1 sulphur and 8 crystal by day 2. And usually you have that or can trade a few resource to get it.

Venom Spawn are not weak. They're actually quite strong and they are Necropolis only shooter, and as such they're useful. The main reason I don't take Venom Spawn myself is actually because they're too slow for my taste.

I don't think Vampires are cheap in any way cheap can be interpreted that I know of. (And I can think of at least three meanings of the word.)

Devils are extremely dangerous and their specials are very useful. Devils placed better than Bone Dragons in Thunder's tests. If you look at the two combats between the two Devils won one while Dragons won the other. Likely, the Ice Demon special kicked in one of the times.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Thorman
Thorman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 16, 2002 03:42 AM

Genies are the strongest lvl3 unit,nothing can match them.I could care less if they cost that much or are so tough to get,they worth every gold/ressources you spend,even if it means to have to wait a few more days.

They deal 18dmg/genie if i remember.Or create 18 hp of creature/genie.

6genies=108dmg or 108hp of creature.

6genies versus 3 vampires could result in 6 genies + 2vampires(one already hurt) versus 3 vampires on first round.(yes,u can cast create illusion on your ennemies)

Vampires get stronger once a hero has GM necromancy,but by the time,your genies will have make your life so much easier.

Won't even compare with other lvl3 since vampires are suppose to be the best.



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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 16, 2002 09:28 AM

I would reply but I think I gave myself a headache reading the first post here
Well everytown has it's ups & downs some good sides & it's bad sides.
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Dreaming of a Better World

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Flashman
Flashman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 16, 2002 11:17 AM

Water elementals > genies.

As for town balance I'd have to to rank Preserve #1.
(Well it's my favorite~)

/Flash
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 16, 2002 02:29 PM

I don't think anything can ever be totally balanced unless the sides are mirror images of one another.

Perhaps the game wasn't aiming for balance in the first place? Did you consider HOMM2 to be imbalanced since the Knight and Barbarian towns could in no way compete against the Warlock and Wizard towns? Or the fact that Archangels were easily the best unit in HOMM3 (superior stats in everything except HP)? Other 7th level creatures were not as good as the AA, and the AA only cost gold and no resources! It wasn't intended to be balanced, or else every 7th level creature would have identical stats.

HOMM4 likewise wasn't intended to be any more 'balanced' than HOMM2 and HOMM3. It's up to you to choose how to play them. Like direct damage spells and brute strength? Take the Chaos town. Want to use lots of summons? Take Nature. Want to rely on healing and resurrecting? Life.

Anyway, this was more a reply to your topic title "Major imbalance" rather than what you actually wrote. I know you like the game, so that isn't the point. I just don't consider it 'majorly' imbalanced. It is about as balanced as previous HOMMs.

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Pootie_Tang
Pootie_Tang

Tavern Dweller
posted April 16, 2002 06:48 PM

What would be more interesting is if you could give the names of TBS games that were totally balanced AND still fun to play.  In fact the only game that I can think of that is fairly balanced and still fun to play is Starcraft and thats an RTS.  Go figure.  

For what you get outta HOMM4 it's great.  Can't wait till multi-player.    
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I'm gonna sign yo pity on da ruhny khine!! Thwack!!

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Midler
Midler


Hired Hero
High Priestess Elf Queen
posted April 19, 2002 11:55 PM

Quote:
About Genies. You must be joking! Some people believe Genies are the BEST creature in the game. I haven't played with Genies much but their stats and spell selection looks VERY VERY promising. Academy could not ask for a better Flyer on third level. And at growth rate of 6/week, they're supposed to be a bit weaker in their stats than Nagas who grow by 3/week.

-Good Lord, how many times will u hafta misinterpret my messages?! I said the Genie's primary purpose was to cast spells, not go on to the middle of the battlefield and attack other creatures!

Lacks Flyers I read as Misses flyer as in has no at all. AFAIK this is a normal interpretation of lacks although lacks could also mean has too few.

-What the heck? Could u repeat these sentences? Just to make a reply assumption, the standard definition of "lacks" is too few, not "none at all". "One lacks the ability to fight" is a sentence very different from "One has no ability to fight".

Spellcasting flyers are among the best creatures in the game from what I've seen so far. Angels, Devils, Genies, Faerie Dragons and Genies are all excellent creatures.

-Yeah, ok so? Did I say anything to say they were bad?

Yes, but you hamper development in the beginning. In a town with a tavern and torture chamber built, the Necro player can purchase the cerberi dwelling on day 1 and the vampire dwelling on day 2 and the player would still have the money to buy the 2 vampires that become available.

-point taken for the Necropolis. But compare with the other towns I mentioned as well for level 3 creatures.

Venom Spawn are not weak. They're actually quite strong and they are Necropolis only shooter, and as such they're useful. The main reason I don't take Venom Spawn myself is actually because they're too slow for my taste.

-Oy Vey... I said (went something like this) "I can't help but think of the V Spawns inferiority over the Vampires with the same growth rate they have". This is just my opinion. Sure the Vampire has better stats, but as everyone already knows, they can increase to large amounts and are very difficult to kill. Venom Spawns CAN'T regenerate/ressurect, and that's basically what I'm trying to get across.

Devils are extremely dangerous and their specials are very useful. Devils placed better than Bone Dragons in Thunder's tests. If you look at the two combats between the two Devils won one while Dragons won the other. Likely, the Ice Demon special kicked in one of the times.

-point taken then.


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Midler
Midler


Hired Hero
High Priestess Elf Queen
posted April 20, 2002 12:03 AM

Quote:
I don't think anything can ever be totally balanced unless the sides are mirror images of one another.

-Yes it can... if one side has crappy creatures, they must posses great magic. Mediocre creatures, mediocre spells...etc.

Perhaps the game wasn't aiming for balance in the first place? Did you consider HOMM2 to be imbalanced since the Knight and Barbarian towns could in no way compete against the Warlock and Wizard towns? Or the fact that Archangels were easily the best unit in HOMM3 (superior stats in everything except HP)? Other 7th level creatures were not as good as the AA, and the AA only cost gold and no resources! It wasn't intended to be balanced, or else every 7th level creature would have identical stats.

-no u misunderstood. There will always be creatures more powerful than the rest, and spells better than the rest. But to think that Black Dragons, Nightmares, Medusae, Minotaurs and spells such as, Chain Lightning, Bloodfrenzy, Implosion, Haste, First Strike, and yes, even the spell that all the other towns need MORE than the Asylum, SLAYER, are all in the SAME TOWN! Nature has such weak creatures and I woulda expect at least 2 archer dwellings. Summon isnt all bad, but the earliers summon spells are just horrendous and summon so little even at high levels. As for HOMM 2, ur right, it was hardly balanced... but that's why this topic originated in the "Altar of Wishes" because I wanted more BALANCE!


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"I am light. I am dark. I must give my life to serve; not even death can release me." -Selenia, Dark Angel

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CleansingFire
CleansingFire


Hired Hero
posted April 20, 2002 12:04 AM

In my opinion, this game is the most balanced Heroes game yet.  I have seen someone complain about every town and how they need to be toned down.  People don't seem to realize that every town has it's own powerful qualities, and they will be counteracted by the other towns own bonuses.

I think that we all ought to wait until we've been playing multiplayer for a month or two before complaining about the games balance, as that will be the real test of how balanced the game is.  
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 20, 2002 06:26 AM

Quote:
I don't think anything can ever be totally balanced unless the sides are mirror images of one another.

-Yes it can... if one side has crappy creatures, they must posses great magic. Mediocre creatures, mediocre spells...etc.


Umm no. It won't be totally balanced still. People will get into arguments about one side being better than the other. Some people will say that weaker creatures and stronger magic is a better combination than mediocre creatures and spells. It is debateable, and the more powerful spells might not make up for the weaker creatures.

The only way to make it not debateable is if the sides were mirror images in stats and abilities (doesn't matter if they look different).

Balance is delicate. For any game to have sides that are exactly 100% balanced is impossible, unless they are mirror images.
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insatiable
insatiable


Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
posted April 20, 2002 10:22 AM

Quote:
this game is the most balanced Heroes game yet

Just true..!
..yet...gave a glimpse at necromancy recently and i say THAT was scary...i mean gaining 2 vamps out of a routine fight seemed ridiculously strong!..i hope that town has it's weak points ,can't see them yet though...
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 20, 2002 05:32 PM

Quote:
Just true..!
..yet...gave a glimpse at necromancy recently and i say THAT was scary...i mean gaining 2 vamps out of a routine fight seemed ridiculously strong!..i hope that town has it's weak points ,can't see them yet though...


13 of those buggers flew straight up to my Hero in one turn and killed her. No retaliation either. And it was a level 16 hero who had the Regeneration plate. One hit. Either these guys are a tad powerful, or the heroes just don't have enough HP alone to deal with numbers of enemies. Any enemy who has high enough numbers will kill a hero in one attack. The way I see it is that one unit (a hero) alone doesn't have enough HP to match numbers of weaker units, and its damage doesn't beat numbers of weaker units either. You need to have good artifacts and spells to stand toe to toe with 20+ average creatures (and if it's a small stack of 4th level creatures.. RUN).

My prediction is when multiplayer arrives, there will be a lot of dead heroes.. They will sit in many player's prisons, and everyone will probably be getting new heroes.
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CleansingFire
CleansingFire


Hired Hero
posted April 20, 2002 07:15 PM

Jenova:  What level of Combat did your Hero have?  That makes a huge difference.  Heroes without the Combat skill tend to die very fast in battle.  Although Vampires will make it happen even faster.

Grandmaster Necromancy is one of the issues I'm concerned about, but I'm going to wait until multiplayer has been out for a month or two before I decide about that.  
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 21, 2002 05:50 AM

My hero (I've forgotten the class already ) had combat but not at a high level. I generally avoid combat when I use a magic hero. I just don't like the idea that every hero should learn combat if they want to survive when attacked in melee. Combat conflicts with the interests of some hero classes. I know it's no RPG, but I like to get casters who focus on magic (2 magic schools).

I like to learn the 5 primary skills early on, and then build them slowly. Whichever two happens to go up first (depending on what options I get in level up and learning stones, etc..) decides what advanced class. I usually don't get combat unless I use a might hero, because with a magic hero I won't be fighting that much, I'd rather be casting spells, so combat would seem a bit of a waste. GM combat will definately make heroes survive longer, but that's a lot of skills I would have spent on other things earlier.

I always get 2 magic schools, tactics, scouting, and nobility. Getting it early on is a habit I retained from previous HOMMs (I wanted to get everything early so that bad skills don't suddenly pop up that I can't avoid).

Anyway, I think that hero HP could use a small boost, because you need a very high level before you can even have enough HP to match a black dragon. And your spells are no use against the dragon, so depending on how intelligent the AI is, your hero might not last long.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 21, 2002 06:56 AM

So we all can figure out what each town has & the creatures lets see how it inbalances .I may of missed a few things in some towns which I will put in
Haven:
can create 4 skills for you to buy for your hero which can come in handy & increase you morale.
Squires: has the hand to hand combat, not very tough mayhaps if you have good #'s of them. They can stun an opponent for a round.
Crossbowmen: are good lv 1 shooters which can shoot through many obsacles which if you have many can be deadly.
Balista:another good shoterwith good offense for a sec lv shooter but defense is not as hot if you can get to them lol.No range or penalty penalty.
Pikemen:are descent with their power & defense for a sec lv but not to hot.They can hit from 2 hexes without retaliation.
Crusader:They are very solid with good speed which means if you give them a chance they can do some major damage with thier 2 hits & the right spells.Good power & defense
Monks are solid ranged attackers which can be deadly but nothing special .
Champions: which I explained in the 4th lv creatures thread
Angels:also look in 4th lv thread

Academy:You can buy some skills here & some items with good spells to learn of the three & also a treasury which you man need .
Halfling: re not the greatest shooters for a lv 1 but they can help a giant slayer
Dwarfwarfs can be good at defending ranged shooters with magic resistance, you can get alot of them but not very powerful
Gold Golem: A very strong ground unit for a lv 2 creature with magic resistance (75% dwarves 50%) descent speed but can be tough reaching creatures, good defenders.
Mage:Are not ranged shooters but spell casters which can cast some Order Magic which is the more you have the more powerful the offensive spells will be.
Genies:Are not that great in offensive battle but thats not their best but their spell castings which Ice bolt can be very deadly which is the more the genies you have the more powerful the spells like lv ups in your magic skill .
Naga:Very powerful ground units with no retaliation & powerful primary skills they can be deadly.
Dragon Golem & Titans are in 4th lv Dwelling.

Preserve:where you can buy good ranged weapons including the bow with no obstacles penalties.
Also you can get the creature portal where you can buy some neutral preserve creatures which can be dealy but if you have the money that can help.
Sprite:are descent creatures for a lv 1 but can be little pesks with thier movements & no retaliation.If they are the fastest lol that would be cool.
Wolf:with their speed & two attacks can be deadly but since usually they go first they may be retaliated since their offense & defense is not that great.
Elf: Are great ranged shooters where you can get good amount of them.They always get first strike with thier first shot sec will get retaliated.
White Tiger:Have good offense & defense for a sec lv unit & with the first strike can be deadly.
Griffen:Their power is not that great compaired to other 3rd lv units but with thier unlimited retaliation can put a big hurt on the opponent with the right spells.
Unicorns:Have good power & defense which can blind a creature randomly & are pretty solid but dont be reckless with them
Fairy Dragons & Phoenixes in 4th lv units thread .

Necropolis:with any units that you dont want can be transformed to skeletons & also the amplifier to help decrease your chance for a good % of more skeletons for you nec Skill.
Imps:with reg lv 1 power & defense can be a nuisance because they can channel your spell points & can deal some damage but are weak otherwise.
Skeletons:Good stats for a lv 1 unit & plus with Nec skill you can get a good deal of them & hard to kill with ranged units
Cerebus:Still has the 3 headed Multiple attacks & got good power & defense but dont always leave them out in the open carelessly
Ghost:When your Nec skill goes up in lv you can bring ghosts back from the dead instead of skeletons I think it's expert Nec.These creatures got some movements lol & can age a creature & with good #'s can be tough to kill kill .
Vampirene of the toughest 3rd lv creatures in the game with great stats for their lv.Also i think in Grandmaster Nec skill you can start bringing Vampires from the dead which them alone can put a big hurt on a player.
WIth no retaliation really fast speed & movements & blood sucking to brinbg thier #'s back to life,enough said lol.
Venom Spawns:Are great ranged shooters which always poisons a creature orless immune.Also got great power & defense & are hard to kill so you can poison someone to your advantage .
Bone Dragons & Devils in 4th lv thread .

Asylumrobally got the best offensive spells & wards
Bandit:have the stealth but not a facter in battlenot very powerful & are fast so they can do some damage .
Orc:Ranged attackers but only short ranged so they are probally the worst shooters but do have good power & defense .
Medusa:got good power & defense & also can turn you to stone which can kill your creatures even 4th lv creatures which makes them very powerful with thier unlimited shots.
Minotaur:Got some good stats & plus they can block any attacks hand to hand or ranged shots in random.
Efreeti:Good offensive attackers which got good power & defense so they can do some damage with thier fire shield & fire attack
Nightmare:also with good stats but they can cause terror to an opponent so they wont retaliate & can be deadly ground units which hoipefully they wont get attacked first they can be dealy if they get close .
Hydra & black dragon in 4th lv creatures thread .

Stronghold:Can recruit anyone they want,also increases your power & defense by 3 each plus can increase your magic resistance by 10% also can bye some good weapons & can increase your population by 50% but more expensive then buying 4th lv dwellings so may be good if you have good spending money or big map
Berserker:Got great power but poor defense since they are not under your command they will go after the nearest creature & if in reach of more then one usually goes for the more in stacks.Also 2 attacks.
Centaur:got descent lv 1 stats but only short ranged attackers but if you have good #'s can be deadly .
Harpy:Got good attack & defense which means they can be deadly with thier no retaliation fly & return hit can be hard to kill.
Nomads:average ground units with descent stats & have the first strike which they get first crack before retaliation.
Cyclops:Got great power & defense where they have no retaliation with thier range attack because of thier area atack which you can hit muliple enemies if in range.
You will see what you can hit.
Ogre magi pretty much exact same as in heroes 3 except little more powerful.Stats are poor compared to most lv 3 creatures which is pretty shocking for them being ogres & all.Other wise same thing with bloodFrenzy three perbattle
Behemoths & Thunderbirds in 4th LV creatures In the thread .
I know I may be off in some of the towns which I will fix
Thanks everyone





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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 23, 2002 02:57 PM

Good post Midler, nice to see you got a brownie point ;-)

I don't agree that Asylum are over-powered though

I think when we play multi-player we're more likely to see "No Nec" than "No Asylum" (which I reckon is the real test of balance). You say youself the vampires are cheap. I think theyíre more than that Ė I think that they are the one element which skews an otherwise well-balanced game

Now I love the Asylum myself but the town doesn't offer the same instant power as the Necropolis. In fact in Hotseat and in Single player, it hasnít felt more powerful than the other towns

Necropolis though!

I've been trying a few scenarios with a view to multi-player on a Medium map. I generally get 15-20 vampires to my opponents town by the time they're building their fourth level creature dwelling, sometimes before!

GM Necromancy is usually achieved with a 9th-10th level Necromancer

Now I know a human is a tougher opponent but that doesn't mean that the game will last very much longer. It simply means that they will put up more of a struggle :-)

So, asking ourselves "who's the daddy?" at the end of week 3/beginning of week 4 you have to hand it to the Necromancer

I don't see any other town competing

Arguably, the Asylum could be a little over-powered in a long game but the Preserve has an extra creature dwelling - arguably the best creature dwelling in the game, the Stronghold has 50% creature growth and Life and Order really do have better spell lists. Sanctuary, Hypnotise and Town Portal are so powerful it's sick and there are many combos. Not to mention the Necropolis has decent level 4s and a hell of a head-start

On the other hand if you meet a Necromancer with vampires in the first or second week you are dead unless you're playing one too

Incidentally when fighting vampires I have some joy concentrating everything on the vampires except perhaps a Slow spell or two.

From playing a Necro a lot I can tell you two things:
1) I couldn't give a monkey's fart about the other troops - they are only in the army to stop me losing vamps and in most fights they sit at the back and do nothing! and
2) I have only lost vampire stacks when I've advanced them too confidently and the enemy's hit them with everything he's got.

Thorman, in your post 1) the genies cast two spells in round 1, 2) you seem to have forgotten that vampires regenerate themselves. At the beginning of round 2 theyíll hit the genies and be near to full strength again and 3) the weekly growth rate isnít a fair basis for comparison Ė vampires will go into production earlier and be supplemented very soon by GM Necromancy and 4) the Necro player can clear his surrounding area and gain troops from the routine easy fights. The Order player canít, he will incur losses, even losing some genies

Finally definitions

1) Fliers
Creatures are spellcasters, ranged, fliers or walkers
To the people who think Academy has fliers ask yourselves which creatures do you send across the battlefield to go hand-to-hand with enemy crossbowmen. Answer = walkers only
That's what Midler (and for what it's worth, the Homm manual) meant by fliers
The implication is that you can't quickly cross the battlefield to shut down enemy ranged attacks which is a disadvantage (although the town can cope in other ways)
Itís fliers in the tactical sense rather than in the literal sense
2) Cheap
Cheap means (in this context) winning with a lazy, easy strategy rather than by any particular skill or though. Like making a cheap comment. It implies contempt for the strategy. Itís colloquial but a very common use of the word
And I agree, using Vampires against someone who doesn't is cheap and will spoil a multi-player game
3)Balance
Jenova, computer strategy games always aim for balance. Read articles by game designers and they will stress balance as one of their prime considerations. What they mean is, as Midler says, that they allow different elements to be out of synch but that viewed as a whole the towns are equally good. Think of a scales. On one side you have an 80g weight and a 20g weight, on the other you have 2 50g weights. Balanced, but not mirrored

The advantage of this over mirror image balancing is that itís never obvious which is better. Is Castle better than Rampart in HoMM3? No one can say which makes it a very interesting contest.

CleansingFire very sensibly suggests looking after a month or two of multiplayer. I'm sure he's right but it's fun to speculate ;-)

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