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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Is racial factions really bad?
Thread: Is racial factions really bad? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 11:01 AM

It creates the opposite of diversity - why would you call a faction GOBLIN, just because they feature a Goblin who wields some kind of spear? However, if you have a Goblin Spearwielder, a Goblin Darter and a Goblin Trapper in your faction it gets BOROING like hell and does NOT create diversity AT ALL.

Game is also called HEROES of M&M, bot RACES of M&M, not even FACTIONS of M&M, so, no, nor argument whatsoever, sorry.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 13, 2016 12:20 PM

How much do you hate AoW for its racial approach, JJ?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 03:35 PM

That's something else because of the classes. The actual factions are the classes and you get them in 9 different races which makes for a lot of variety and diversity.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 13, 2016 03:40 PM

JollyJoker said:
It creates the opposite of diversity - why would you call a faction GOBLIN, just because they feature a Goblin who wields some kind of spear? However, if you have a Goblin Spearwielder, a Goblin Darter and a Goblin Trapper in your faction it gets BOROING like hell and does NOT create diversity AT ALL.

Game is also called HEROES of M&M, bot RACES of M&M, not even FACTIONS of M&M, so, no, nor argument whatsoever, sorry.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is:

1.
It is not bad to have a races taking up more units, given it doesn't take a spot that would fit better for another unit.
For an example, it should be okay to have a hunter, druid, and pegasus rider all be elves as they are all unit that fits the factions theme regardless of race. However it would be bad to add a bladedancer purely because it's an elven unit when you could add something more fitting, like a wolf or a dryad.

2.
It could create more diversity as in less repeated race (specifically humans)
Look at Heroes III. Basicly every unit that is not stated otherwise is human, and every faction has access to human heroes. It does make sense for units like mages to be humans, and factions like Tower and Necropolis to have access to human heroes, but all of them? It would make each faction feel more unique from each other is not all of them had human heroes and units, but instead gave other races a spotlight.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
posted November 13, 2016 03:51 PM

JollyJoker said:
That's something else because of the classes. The actual factions are the classes and you get them in 9 different races which makes for a lot of variety and diversity.


To be honest it is something I overlook because the game is great, but in terms of immersion speaking only: Draconian Hunter, Dwarf Hunter, Frostling Hunter, Goblin Hunter, Halfling Hunter, High Elf Hunter, Human Hunter, Tigran Hunter, Orc Hunter, then we go again with Draconian Shaman, Dwarf Shaman etc etc, really?

I would have much preferred an approach more NWC-like.
And townscreens.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 13, 2016 04:14 PM
Edited by Stevie at 16:17, 13 Nov 2016.

JollyJoker said:
That's something else because of the classes. The actual factions are the classes and you get them in 9 different races which makes for a lot of variety and diversity.


False, and I smell a bit of hypocrisy now. There's nothing to indicate that classes stand superior to race with regards to what a faction means. In fact, faction creation makes it pretty clear that a faction is composed of 3 elements of equal importance, and those are race, class and specialization. And that's only the case for AoW3 where customization is on another level. In AoW1 and AoW2 there is nothing but race, and I know for a fact that you don't hate those games because of that, quite on the contrary. With that in mind, I find your vehement opposition towards race a bit unwarranted. Even Heroes 3 to some extent had race duplicates, for Heroes there's humans in every single faction.
Also what Galaad said.

From my perspective, having partial racial equivalents is unavoidable, but forgoing mythological creatures in favor of race is just inexcusable.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
posted November 13, 2016 04:43 PM

Stevie said:
From my perspective, having partial racial equivalents is unavoidable, but forgoing mythological creatures in favor of race is just inexcusable.


Agreed, but at least equivalents in terms of gameplay can differ with the look, name and background of the unit, unless is cases like Djinn/Efreet but that doesn't bother me in the slightest, these equivalents are cool IMO
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted November 13, 2016 05:45 PM

Elven swordsman, human swordsman, dwarven swordsman... Offcourse if game is interesting clonning dont destroy gameplay. But its not a strong side of game if we have practicaly the same units many times.
Human crossbowmen. Human calvary. Human female griffin rider like Catherine. Human wingedman "angel". 4 human but another units.
Elven archer. Elven unicorn rider. Elven female pegasus rider. Elven winged pixie. The same 4 elven units but another.
Goblin thrower. Goblin wolfrider. Goblin raven rider.
Golem melee. Golem gorgone with gremlin (like horseman). Gargoyle with gremlin female or Golem genie flier. Golem titan shooter.
Dvarven hammerman. Dwarven boar rider. Dwarven female roc rider.
..
Some examples where we have racial factions but not boring because all unit is another or have second new creature to riding.
I think is the best solutin. About 4 racial like up units and 3 thematic creatures.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 13, 2016 07:46 PM

JollyJoker said:
The truth is that races are completely redundant, because in practise the "racial" units are all ripped from different human units from history, anyway, with the difference between a Dwarven Defender and a Human Halberdier is basically non-existant.
Except the Defender carries a warhammer type weapon, not a spear.

Quote:
The initial games do have them, but not as a race, but as a mythical being. In H2 the "Elf" is the archetypical mythical Elf and in that not different from, say, a Troll. The main characteristics of an Elf is, he looks vaguely human, is quite thin, has pointy ears and has a weapon, a bow.
Except not, because that's Tolkien's influence, and you know what else he put in, Elven armies, with few if any mythical creatures. Before that they were rarely even regarded as an actual 'race'.

Quote:
A Troll is a mythical being as well, hulking and ugly and big, dwells under Bridges, throws rocks and regenerates damage.
And turns to stone in daylight.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 08:35 PM

MattII said:


Quote:
A Troll is a mythical being as well, hulking and ugly and big, dwells under Bridges, throws rocks and regenerates damage.
And turns to stone in daylight.
And VAMPIRES?

Look, the point here is, FACTION is just another word for TOWN (not race) in the game, which offers a specific selection of creatures or units or whatever you want to call them. "RACE" is crap because it doesn't matter - you could have NO Dark Elf in Dungeon and two different Minotaurs and STILL call it a Dark Elven town (simply because they are too proud to fight themselves and only lead their minions as heroes), for example).

On the other hand you might have human Apprentices and human Swashbucklers in a town and call it the Cove or the Harbor or whatever you like.

In HoMM race shouldn't matter, because RACE means, there are a whole lot of them.

On another note, AoW has been a different game from HoMM, and while I did play I and II, for me III beats them by a mile, and the reason IS the added diversity. In AoW 3 you have
7 different racial units (there are 9 different races), 1 Irregular, I Infantry, 1 Pikeman, 1 Archer, 1 Cavalry, 1 Support and 1 Special unit that can be Inf, Cav, Sup or Irreg. While there ARE racial differences, some of which are even relevant, these units are only some kind of backbone, since not only the Class you play will alter THEM (due to the stuff you research and your Leader can get), but you will get also class units in addition to that.
So, say you play a HighElven Necromancer. In this case all your racial units become Ghouls (giving them different characteristics because they become undead), but you also can get 6 more undead units, the Lost Soul, the Reanimator, the Banshee, the Bone Collector, the Deathbringer and the Dread Reaper - plus you can raise Cadavers from dead units, ghoul living units and take control over more undead units like Wraiths and Archon Titans (which are undead Titans indeed). Lastly you can pick specializations that will allow you to summon stuff (you may pick Fire spec and can research Summon Hell Hound, for example). Plus there are secret spells that may give you Summon Bone Dragon...

Now, say I play Warlord instead of Necro. Then my Class units will be Berserker, Monster Hunter, Mounted ARcher, Phalanx, Warbreed and Manticore Rider.

Which means, in AoW 3 there are no factions, but puzzle pieces you combine, and race is one of them.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 13, 2016 08:39 PM

MattII said:
Quote:
A Troll is a mythical being as well, hulking and ugly and big, dwells under Bridges, throws rocks and regenerates damage.
And turns to stone in daylight.

Fun fact, it is actually only Norwegian and at times Swedish trolls that turns to stone in the daylight, while Danish trolls have no problem with the sun. Though they are also a lot smaller than other trolls.

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Minastir
Minastir


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 13, 2016 09:43 PM

Ok, I'm not gonna lie, I have only read the first couple of comments in this thread but what I would like to say considering this topic: if somebody is incapable of making great faction, it doesn't really matter if the faction is based on the race or theme. Both, race factions and factions based on themes can be done terribly. So just make a damn good faction and then I won't even think about what kind of faction it is

PS: The only rule to fallow, just don't add too many the same race creatures in one line-up

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 13, 2016 10:25 PM
Edited by Stevie at 22:35, 13 Nov 2016.

JollyJoker said:
Which means, in AoW 3 there are no factions, but puzzle pieces you combine, and race is one of them.


Yes there are factions, they're determined by race + class + specialization, and are more than usually referred to depending on the race. I am in disbelief I actually have to say this to you of all people.

You're in a state of contradiction and you're unwilling to admit it. When I asked you earlier about how much you hate races in AoW it was not by accident. Before you made ANY differentiation, I believe that what you stated in a very general sense was that "Race is crap", yet race was a foundational piece in AoW even before class had anything to do with it. In fact, race is historically MUCH more prevalent in AoW than in Heroes and honestly class is besides the point here. Class doesn't eradicate the fact that there's still races, the fact that there's still "a Goblin Spearwielder, a Goblin Darter and a Goblin Trapper" REGARDLESS of class.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 10:37 PM

Dude, it's two different games. Apples and oranges. And you can make the math yourself. Factions in HoMM: 9 max. Factions in AoW 3 as you define "faction": 756. That's just 84 times as many "factions".
You don't really want to compare that, do you?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 13, 2016 10:52 PM

I'm not fond of racial line ups. Exception for humans, which would be a less magical thing, on the lines of H2 (I don't like angels in human line up, btw). Besides, as seen that humans are meddling everywhere when it comes to being Heroes (which I mostly doubt that other races/factions would simply allow humans becoming so overly important to them like that), I don't like human dominance as heroes, not I think they should be present in most of factions.

I think some factions can have even a race or two or three, and they don't even need to show in the line up I reckon. Similar the lines of coaches who never played sports in their lives but they are goddamn good coaches.

But I hate those new Dungeon line ups full of dark elves, or those rampart ones full of elves, dwarven full of dwarves etc. They feel so repetitive somehow. The fun fact is that I wouldn't think they would be repetitive if we were talking about colored squares instead of beings. Each square with different color has a different ability, and that feels ok. What doesn't feel ok is shaping them to give some unique 'appearance', whilst they really don't feel different, avoiding adding another interesting option to give a broader diversity to the line up, both visually, lore-wise, ability-like.

To my perception, some factions wouldn't even need multiple heroes, depending on their conception.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 13, 2016 11:07 PM
Edited by Stevie at 23:14, 13 Nov 2016.

JollyJoker said:
Dude, it's two different games. Apples and oranges. And you can make the math yourself. Factions in HoMM: 9 max. Factions in AoW 3 as you define "faction": 756. That's just 84 times as many "factions".
You don't really want to compare that, do you?


I believe the subject of the threads was racial factions. Both games have that dimension to them so it makes perfect sense to use it for comparison. Bringing up Class and Specialization in such a context has absolutely NO relevance. Number of races (which is 9 in HoMM3 and also 9 in AoW3) is of no importance either.

I don't know how I can be clearer. You KNOW for a fact that a race in AoW3 brings a set number of creatures that follow a specific pattern: irregulars, infantry, archers, pikemen, cavalry and support. Every single race has that, class or specialization don't even matter. So, again, you said you hated that, but obviously you don't hate it in AoW, hence the conflicting standards.

But okay, I'll grant you the argument that class and specialization are important. Then I ask you, before they were a thing in the franchise, how much did you hate AoW? Specifically, how much did you hate AoW1 and AoW2 where race was everything there was? We both know the answer to that.

Conclusion, you hate race in Heroes, you love race in AoW, for no distinguishable reason whatsoever.

Oh, and again I add, race is MUCH more prevalent in AoW compared to Heroes. In fact race is such an important element that it is completely defined and holds gameplay impact, unlike Heroes where race affects morale at best.
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2016 03:16 AM
Edited by GenyaArikado at 03:32, 14 Nov 2016.

H7 did lower racial emphasis in tows and dungeon-aside the "repeated" race creatures fill different archetypes (ie elf hunter and elf druid)

The only one where they dont is in Dungeon where Stalkers should have been mixed with the assassin. We should have gotten blood maidens/skirmishers (core, as the concept) or ideally, dark elven sorceresses (elite) since those do play to a different dark elven archetype (the bladedancer and the drow priestess respectively)

My idea Ashan dungeon lineup would be

Assassin (basically the Stalker called Assassin)
Harpy/Harpy Hag
Troglyodite/Cthonian
Priestess/Matriarch
Medusa/Medusa Sorceress
Minotaur/Minotaur Gladiator
Black Dragon/Shadow Dragon
Hydra/*Insert adjetive here* Hydra


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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 14, 2016 06:59 AM

GenyaArikado said:
My idea Ashan dungeon lineup would be

Assassin (basically the Stalker called Assassin)
Harpy/Harpy Hag
Troglyodite/Cthonian
Priestess/Matriarch
Medusa/Medusa Sorceress
Minotaur/Minotaur Gladiator
Black Dragon/Shadow Dragon
Hydra/*Insert adjetive here* Hydra



Don't think the harpy would fit in here. Beyond the part that Ashan's Harpies usually is in the league with the orcs, there is no reason for the harpies to ally with the darkelves, nor any reason for the darkelves to go through the effort to capture and enslave harpies from the surface when they can acquire something equally good like giant bats from their subterranean realm. Other than that, pretty good.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 14, 2016 09:04 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 09:20, 14 Nov 2016.

Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
Dude, it's two different games. Apples and oranges. And you can make the math yourself. Factions in HoMM: 9 max. Factions in AoW 3 as you define "faction": 756. That's just 84 times as many "factions".
You don't really want to compare that, do you?


I believe the subject of the threads was racial factions. Both games have that dimension to them so it makes perfect sense to use it for comparison. Bringing up Class and Specialization in such a context has absolutely NO relevance. Number of races (which is 9 in HoMM3 and also 9 in AoW3) is of no importance either.

I don't know how I can be clearer. You KNOW for a fact that a race in AoW3 brings a set number of creatures that follow a specific pattern: irregulars, infantry, archers, pikemen, cavalry and support. Every single race has that, class or specialization don't even matter. So, again, you said you hated that, but obviously you don't hate it in AoW, hence the conflicting standards.

But okay, I'll grant you the argument that class and specialization are important. Then I ask you, before they were a thing in the franchise, how much did you hate AoW? Specifically, how much did you hate AoW1 and AoW2 where race was everything there was? We both know the answer to that.

Conclusion, you hate race in Heroes, you love race in AoW, for no distinguishable reason whatsoever.

Oh, and again I add, race is MUCH more prevalent in AoW compared to Heroes. In fact race is such an important element that it is completely defined and holds gameplay impact, unlike Heroes where race affects morale at best.
No. Race doesn't matter much in AoW, because you are not limited to one. When you create your leader, the race part is just defining the race of your Leader hero and th race of your starting and most probably the neighboring town and that's it.
And racial units will be different depending on which Class you play. You play Elven Rogue and suddenly your Elves start doing Blight damage. In fact, certain types of units of ALL races start doing Blight damage, once you have researched a certain class tech, so race is just a unit property, and you should know that as well. Orcs, for example, have +5 HP, +1 Melee, -1 ranged and -1 Resistance compared to standard.

In Homm it's a different matter. Necropolis, for example, is no "racial" town - but all units share a common property. Undead. This is quite close to AoW 3 insofar that "undead" means, no morale, no mind influence, a Light vulnerability and certain resistancies - but units as such can be everything, provided they are undead. On the other hand, an Elven town, no matter which one, doesn't share any property. Instead, of those "factions" that consist of 7 or 8 units part of them are member of a certain race, 1 Archer, 1 Inf or Melee and 1 support, but no common properties; apart from the racial units there is an assortment of other units that also don't share any traits or properties.

Which means, the way "race" is done in HoMM it has no meaning whatsoever, except that racial units will all share a certain humanoid look and have similarities with a known historical human unit.

AoW COMES from "races", ending in SM's 15. But even THEY thought things were too similar, because SM introduced another "special" unit for each faction (that hadn't got to do anything with race). When they made III they realized that SOME racial traits were covered by Class aspects - Dark Elves and "Rogue" share so many attributes it doesn't make sense to have them both, for example - so races had to be reduced to be meaningful.

But in HoMM, "races" are not a universal underlying theme delivering "properties". What does the lore say? There are humans, the work of Ylath; Elves, the work of Sylanna, Faceless, the work of Malassa, Angels, the work of Elrath, Dwarves, the work Arkath; and Naga, the work of Shalassa, plus Demons, the work of Urgash (and because of Urgash's chaotic nature Demons come in all shapes.
That makes Demons the only immediately usable "race" as a faction. They are different like, say ""mammals", but COULD share common properties - say, regeneration or undying or whatever the hell you want.
Faceless and Angels are reduced to a handful - but strangely enough EXACTLY that property could make them factionable in HoMM as well, because you have only one racial unit, and if you look at H6 and Haven and Dungeon, if you consider Dungeon a Faceless town and exchange Trogs for Shades, you do have a very nice Dungeon of the Faceless.
You could do the same with Haven. You could easily take Pegasus Riders (riders being whatever race you want) or Knights (of any race) because it wouldn't be a human town, but HAVEN, the Angels faction, and for HOMM, that makes a lot more sense, because in HoMM it's important to make all units as different as possible, because there is nothing that changes properties (adds diversity via gameplay).

It is absolutely possible in HoMM, even in Ashan, to create themed factions weher race doesn't come into play. Stronghold is a faction that is racial only by name. In H7 you have Gnolls, Orcs, Harpies, Centaurs, Basilisk Riders (Riders are Goblins), Wyverns, Cyclopses and Behemoths, which is a brilliant line-up. There is no reason whatsoever to call this an ORC town. Lore says, Orcs are half demons, but most of the others are BEASTmen; they share that they were created by the Wizards, and that they are renegades. They are NOT a racial town, but the Stronghold, a wild, primitive faction, and "bloodrage" is definitely not a good faction ability in H7, because there is only one demonbreed.

Then there is the Academy. This is also no racial town. It's basically Wizards (humans), Constructs, Spirits and the loyal Beastmen that stayed, undead being renegades or outlaws as well. It's not a racial, but a themed faction.

I don't think that we need factions called Dwarves and Elves in HoMM, although factions could easily contain Elves and Dwarves. In Disciples Dwarves are called "Mountain Clans" and in terms of a faction, considering there is already a "Dungeon", a Mountain faction (which could be called Fortress alright) could easily contain Dwarves - as Dwarves, like, Axemen, a sturdy melee fighter with some magical resistance. The Norse mythology makes sense, and I've seen worse lineups than H7 Fortress - but why would they be a DWARVEN faction?

Same with Elves - they are a wood faction, so what is wrong with having a PRESERVE here, featuring Elves? And if you have "Druids", why does it have to be ELVEN Druids? Druids should come in all racial denominations, it's after all a profession, isn't it, so why shouldn't there be Goblin Druids as well? So give them hoods already and be done with it.

HoMM is a MYTHOLOGICAL MONSTER game, not a war of races. Even then the game has enough themed factions anyway, and it is no problem to make them all themed.
Race, on the other hand, is no defined feature - it doesn't add anything, simply because the units of a racial faction don't share any common meaningful traits.  

I edited this to add, that here we are at AoW 3 again, because here is what makes AoW 3 so good - while "Druid" is a class, the Druid" in AoW 3 is called Shaman, and because it's a Class unit, there are Elven Shamans and Goblin Shamans (and 7 others); there is the "basic Shaman" (which happens to be human), but the racial trait changes something - for example Dwarven Shaman is "Armored", while Tigran Shaman is pretty expensive, but gets a shapeshifting ability (Were Bear) and loses an animal-boosting abilty for it.
That's cool.
On the other hand, the units that are the same, because each race has them, say, the regular racial support, are differently named, and have their racial properties; the Elven support is called Storm Sister, for example, the Goblin is a Blight Doctor, and so on. They share similarities, but also differences.

It makes sense.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 14, 2016 09:32 AM

I think most of the confusion around Racial and Faction came along after naming Racial Skills (if they are named like that, dunno), whether I always understood them as Faction skills. Necromancy is not tied to the race (which race, btw), but to the Necropolis Faction.

Maybe after calling those 'unique' skills of each faction 'Racial', it all started to blur the understanding of telling them apart. But the explanation is clear enough given above: in Heroes games, races don't have traits of their own; so they are useless as gameplay features.
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Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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