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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Is racial factions really bad?
Thread: Is racial factions really bad? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 14, 2016 10:15 AM

Exactly.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 14, 2016 11:09 AM

Minastir said:
Ok, I'm not gonna lie, I have only read the first couple of comments in this thread but what I would like to say considering this topic: if somebody is incapable of making great faction, it doesn't really matter if the faction is based on the race or theme. Both, race factions and factions based on themes can be done terribly. So just make a damn good faction and then I won't even think about what kind of faction it is
QFT, one of the best statements of the thread so far.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2016 04:26 PM

JollyJoker said:
If race WAS in the mix, EVERY intelligent "race" could be a faction: Dragons, Goblins, Trolls, Kobolds, Gnomes, Halflings, Lizardmen - whatever.


Why not? In Age Of Wonders it's so, and you can choose with whom you associate.
I'd personnaly prefer racial towns in HMM3. As in almost every RPG we have racial towns/villages, we don't often see dwarves living with elves (they usually despise each other and represent totally different ways of living).

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted November 15, 2016 01:10 AM

Mediczero said:
GenyaArikado said:
My idea Ashan dungeon lineup would be

Assassin (basically the Stalker called Assassin)
Harpy/Harpy Hag
Troglyodite/Cthonian
Priestess/Matriarch
Medusa/Medusa Sorceress
Minotaur/Minotaur Gladiator
Black Dragon/Shadow Dragon
Hydra/*Insert adjetive here* Hydra



Don't think the harpy would fit in here. Beyond the part that Ashan's Harpies usually is in the league with the orcs, there is no reason for the harpies to ally with the darkelves, nor any reason for the darkelves to go through the effort to capture and enslave harpies from the surface when they can acquire something equally good like giant bats from their subterranean realm. Other than that, pretty good.


Had they wanted harpies in dungeon they would have writen some lore and added them. The perception that Ashan's lore regarding lineup is a monolyth is just that, perception (visual wise is a bit more rigid but still less than this site claims)

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 15, 2016 07:54 AM

GenyaArikado said:
Had they wanted harpies in dungeon they would have writen some lore and added them. The perception that Ashan's lore regarding lineup is a monolyth is just that, perception (visual wise is a bit more rigid but still less than this site claims)

Regardless, I think there are more fitting options for the same role, such as flying bats or some other cave monster.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 15, 2016 01:53 PM

You say you like mythology but want to remove harpies in favor of bats?
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted November 15, 2016 02:01 PM

There are many mythological bats
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 15, 2016 02:48 PM

Galaad said:
You say you like mythology but want to remove harpies in favor of bats?

I simply prefer harpies in other factions than dungeon, yet still suggests a fitting alternative for a similar role. It's a question of taste.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 15, 2016 03:08 PM

Looking at the comments, I think it would help a lot to clarify, by racial factions, if people are talking about something cosmetic or something structural. When JJ compares the element of race in various games, he is focused on how they play out in terms of attributes, where as a lot of comments, in favor or not, seem to be about themes.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted November 15, 2016 04:13 PM
Edited by Stevie at 16:23, 15 Nov 2016.

JollyJoker said:
Race (The Dwarves, The Wood Elves, The Dark Elves, The Humans, the Orcs, The Demons) is boring crap

JollyJoker said:
It doesn't make sense to have Trolls as a race now, with a Troll Sorcerer, a Troll Rockthrower and a Troll Clubwielder, although you definitely could do it, adding, Goblins, Orcs, Cyclopses and Ogres - but THEY could all be a racial faction of their own.

JollyJoker said:
It creates the opposite of diversity - why would you call a faction GOBLIN, just because they feature a Goblin who wields some kind of spear? However, if you have a Goblin Spearwielder, a Goblin Darter and a Goblin Trapper in your faction it gets BOROING like hell and does NOT create diversity AT ALL.


Attributes my ass. He only brought that up after I asked the revealing question about AoW, which was besides the point because the the conversation and his expressed dislike for race was 100% focused around their thematic approach as the quotes can readily reveal.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 15, 2016 04:58 PM

Your ass aside, apples and oranges, yet again.

AoW 3 is a race-based game from the start, Heroes is not. The race crap doesn't gain anything. It's a THEMED game, and ONE theme was "race" (human) - supposedly because they are afraid of monsters (and actually slay them).

In the old games Elves are "creatures", like Trolls. Their characteristic is, that they are Elves, as the characteristic of a Hydra is that it's a Hydra. The game doesn't gain from having diversified Elves, that is, Elves that melee-fight, Elves that shoot a bow, Elves that cast spells, other Elves that ride Lizards or winged Horses, more Elves that wield Knives, throw shuriken, poison and backstab, or can become invisible.

The game can (can, but not must) have ONE racial theme, that is, one racial faction, but since a monster unit is in no way different from a racial unit, except that all racial units are somewhat lookalikes - humans in disguise - why would you have MORE? It's boring.

MONSTERS rule, for frack's sake, and I'm no friend of having a dozen differently colored Dragons neither - same problem.

Think about the fact that HoMM VI, finished game, had only 42 different faction creatures. FORTY-TWO (upgrades are the same). With all 9 factions it would have been 63. That's not a lot - so why would you have 7 different Elves, 5 Dwarves, and 4 Humans among those?

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted November 15, 2016 05:55 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 17:57, 15 Nov 2016.

Now now, play nice.


If you know me, you probably already know my thoughts on the matter: i don't like it. Using my Dungeon as an example (It's a bit down) I'll try to show you what I mean.

When i design a faction three things are at the centre:

1. what creatures are iconic and manditory?
2. What creatures and mythological beasts do i want in the faction?
3. what theme or core philosophy do i want to portray?

Unless you're making a brand new faction without any previous ones as base you can skip question 1 but otherwise, answering these three is a really good place to start: You have a good basis for what creatures to have, what creatures you want and how to form the rest of the entries around that. You have a solid base to build something.

To answer these three questions myself, 1) B.Dragon and Minotaur. 2) Medusa/Gorgon. 3) Pursuit of power at the expense of others/might makes right.

With the dragon, Minotaur and medusa in place we can use number three to design the rest and a good example of this is the chimera. Warlocks here are powerful and one of the ways they pursue it is to create beasts and monsters to fight for them. My first idea was the Griffin but it was quickly discarded as it fit thematically much better in haven so I had to find another creature that a) did fit in and b) showed the complete disregard the Warlocks have for the sanctity of life and what creature fits better with that than the Chimera? A creature so unnatural and without any clear identity for itself. It's very existence is a testament of how little regard its creators has for it and that captures point three perfectly.

The Argos also works well with that philosophy as well as having a shared past with the faction while the Trog works well as a testament that not all creatures has the same chance at success in a brute force, cutthroat society. Neither of witch really work with any other faction either so if they're in at all it should be here.

If your initial approach is to make a "dark elf faction" with some creatures from the old games then your creative process will revolve around something superfluous and limit what you can do dramatically while of you start with a handful of creatures you want with a theme that binds them together you can then add the Dark elves in a thematically functional place, tying the faction together more intricately. If you make the faction around the need to make it a dark elf faction you have to come up with a theme after the fact. Ashan's dungeon is a perfect example of how wrong this can be with them taking Dungeon, filling it with Dark elves and shoving a stealth/assassin theme over the whole thing while classic dungeon has always (with the exception of H4 because that game was weird) been about overpowering your foe. It doesn't take a genius to see this doesn't mix.  


EDIT:
I'd like to point out that, as JJ as continually pointed out, that there is need for one race-based town and this has so far been haven. The reason is that it's the POV/basic faction. it's the one that sets our expectations and the one we will compare all the other ones with and is why it's commonly the tutorial/prologue faction.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 15, 2016 07:59 PM

Or you could split the difference, Take the H3 lineup, move the Minotaur down one to 4th tier (ditching Medusa), and put a Shadow Witch in at Tier 5 and swapping most of the humans (and a few of the Trogs and Minos) out for Dark elves, and hey presto a 'Dark Elf' Dungeon with only one DE in the actual lineup.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted November 16, 2016 12:40 AM
Edited by GenyaArikado at 01:32, 16 Nov 2016.

Mediczero said:
Galaad said:
You say you like mythology but want to remove harpies in favor of bats?

I simply prefer harpies in other factions than dungeon, yet still suggests a fitting alternative for a similar role. It's a question of taste.


Indeed. I for one, believe Dungeon should be the matriarchal (all units with a clear biological gender are female, except minos) greek mythology based (cthonian, harpy, minotaur, medusa, hydra), dark elf (stalker, matriarch) ruled magic town (hag, sorceress, matriarch)

A possible replacement for the harpy could be a dark elven maenad (basically the blood maiden/skirmisher) and I wanted to add the Lampade as a Matriarch update (make it Matriarch/Lampade) but i wasnt sure if people here would follow my thoughttrain.

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