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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Heroes 5.5 Impossible Strategies
Thread: Heroes 5.5 Impossible Strategies This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted January 02, 2019 07:13 AM

Just keep playing, so everything would be clear for you more and more everytime.
Your choice with fortress and might is clasic, and one of my favourites. Brawlers, Bears, and Spearwielders stays in town for defensive use. In some cases the only troops that i use with the main hero is Dwarves and Rune Patriarchs. Light magic is crucial for end game situations, with Celestial Shield and Ressurection cast on my Defenders.
Appart from all that, it is always essencially to me, whatever faction i choose, to choose the right Governor/Protector, in order my main hero will roam the map freely, without returning home to protect it.
Governor for all factions should be a magic hero.
To make things harder to your maps, try to choose enemy castles yourself. Tougher opponents are always Inferno-might hero selection, and Dungeon-magic hero selection. Compared with other castles, these two ones are insanelly tougher to beat and they use A.I. re enforcments cheat better that others.
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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 02, 2019 07:56 AM

Thanks for the advice.

Perhaps I'll try Inferno or Dungeon myself next time, as I remember I struggled with both of these (especially Inferno) last time I played them (which was like 5 years ago, but I read inferno was buffed in 5.5). But I can pick the other one to be my opponent's faction and hero.

I agree that magic heroes should be the protectors of towns. They require less level-ups to become useful in big battles.
At the game I played I completely forgot about the governance option there is in 5.5, but I never had to protect my own town as it was me who was on my opponent's side, and he never was on my isle. He did pass his own gatekeeper, but didn't advance as much as I did.

I considered Sylvan to be a slightly OP faction, so I thought the AI will do well with them. I didn't pick it for the AI, but once I saw that he is developing a might Sylvan hero I considered it to be a threat. I guess the AI plays better with other factions, as Sylvan is quite of a charge factions, something the AI probably doesn't realize.

I'll try a few more times with other factions. And in general I'm not that experienced with magic heroes / factions (ignored Academy completely, and rarely played Dungeon, for all the time I'm familiar with the H5 game), so perhaps a challenge can be doing it with a magic hero.

Is this the most challenging 1vs1 map the game has to offer, or are there other maps similar to this one?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 02, 2019 10:23 AM
Edited by Elvin at 10:28, 02 Jan 2019.

Academy, dungeon and necro are great in let's fight. I used to practice their creeping on this map with the objective of clearing all mines within a week. Not always possible ofc and not with every hero but it is doable with skill and a little luck. Sometimes I could even break through the t7 by end of week 2 with the highlight being 35 emeralds with dungeon. Now it is probably not possible because units move around when all your units are invisible instead of wait. More realistic to plan a week 3 at any rate.

I could do that in 3.0 to 3.1 by focusing on logistics, enlightenment and a magic skill. H5.5 is a little different but the principles remain the same, get intelligence, improve your spellpower and get logistics to speed up your growth. Dungeon has the added benefit of cheap artifact merchant where elemental arties are common. If you go for secrets of destruction, you have better odds at getting fireball because your starting town has lvl 1-2 guild. The free spell is always something you do not know. Academy and necro are better off with summoning and fire warriors is very good for taking down powerful enemies.

Academy in particular may have to get creative with the t7 like when you face magmas. Destructive may not be good enough but titans with arcane armour/regeneration(maybe some limited artificer) can survive ridiculous amounts of punishment. Then there's firetrap spam(even better with teleport as a failsafe), regenerating phoenix blocker, fire elementals with phantom forces, multiple hives with motw and so on.

EDIT:

Ah, I forgot that my usual setting was hard so things may be a little harder.. Dungeon and necro do not require much building but academy might be trickier.
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bulya
bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 02, 2019 01:03 PM

Well, I suppose you can do a lot with summoning, and destructive is fine enough as long as there is enough mana sources.
But when it comes to magic heroes I'm only good at theorycrafting as played them so rarely.

I usually don't invest into logistics, at least not with the factions I played recently. I remember considering this skill as a very valuable one, but having a hero following my main and doing a lot of the picking up stuff is enough on many occasions.

Perhaps for magic heroes logistics is more important as after all they are to some extent on a timer. The later they get to fight the big fight the less help they will get out of their magic. Especially if the opposing hero prepared for that in one way or another.

I remember logistics being very accessible to Sylvan, and I used to pick it up early. But back then it was the first faction I learned to play with, and I didn't understand the game the way I do now (didn't play on the same difficulty level as I do now). So perhaps now I won't pick it up, at least not with my main hero. The escorting hero can have it, and perhaps even scouting as well as some of the other logistics perks. But its perks doesn't help that much early on, (some are only good for supporting heroes rather then the main one) and the movement boost is helpful in the mid game, but still, feels like Combat for might heroes. Obligatory but not that useful in the late game.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 02, 2019 01:54 PM

Actually, spellpower is a lot more important than mana for destructive. Dungeon is supposed to only cast when absolutely necessary so stalkers contribute to the fighting. Plus, a single fury can take down limitless amounts of speed 4 units, split or not. It doesn't matter how many spells you can cast, only that the first spell or two are decisive enough.

Logistics is not about picking resources, think of it like a 30% experience bonus. More battles compared to an opponent without logs and faster to clear key locations like utopias. It is an absolute must for any main hero, might or magic.
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bulya
bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 02, 2019 02:47 PM
Edited by bulya at 14:55, 02 Jan 2019.

I could be wrong about logistics. May be I should give it a try.
With a might hero I think there is no point of getting it earlier then week 3, simply because if I want to invest into logistics I have to have a set-up that I can creep with easily. I guess magic heroes can have such a set-up very early, so for them getting logistics on week 2 and having a boost on how much they can clear each day (as well as how much magic wells are accessible to them) is very good for them.

But with might heroes it takes longer to have a set-up to creep easier. Moreover, if that set-up includes both, war machines and combat, then having logistics means that 3 skills that won't help that much in the final battle, and I will have 3 skills at most that will help me there. And the resource of how many skills a hero can have as well as the level he can get to is a resource upon itself. I also don't think that 30% experience gets to 5-6 levels which are required to have logistics, so the main benefit is the additional stats of those levels and may be the hero attack and how much the tent regenerates.

In case I can have logistics, skip one of those skills (war machines or combat) then its great.

On one hand, I think early creeping will cost more losses, which means losing momentum with a might hero, as well as more gold. And in such a case the additional movement doesn't pay for itself. May be light magic can replace the need for war machines, though my might hero will then spend a lot of that movement on visiting magic wells. Which again, may not be worth it if I can avoid all that movement.

On the other hand, logistics is definitely way better later in the game then war machines, so if it lets me rely more on light magic, and have the movement to visit magic wells perhaps this is a better way to go then rushing the tent perk.
At least in the stages when creeping becomes easy logistics should pays for itself way more then war machines.

Its about can I handle the early game well enough without the tent (and Blista to some extent).

May be the thought process that stopped me is the gamble of having or not having regeneration as part of my 3rd level light magic spell.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 03, 2019 09:29 AM

With this mindset you would be thoroughly trashed in multiplayer, map control far outweighs combat skills.
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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2019 12:50 PM

You could be right. I didn't play a lot of multiplayer, and I was the dominant player and won easily in the games I did play, so perhaps I didn't met the opponents to show me where my weaknesses are.

I'm playing an opponent that seems decent now, so we'll see how will it go.

I actually tried a set-up that frees war machines in favor of logistics (Haven might heroes start with combat, so freeing that was impossible), and I must say it feels strong. I broke through the gatekeeper on late week 5, so I don't think it was good by me, but playing a new faction, a new hero, a build I made on the spot, and relying on different creeping techniques makes it hard on its own. So perhaps if I try it next time I'll do better with it. I was also a bit lucky getting regeneration as one of my level 3 spells and arcance armor as the level 5 spell. Fitting very well into the way I built my hero. I'll see how does the dungeon magic AI do vs me, and I hopes he crushes me. I can start a similar game afterwards to see if I can do better in creeping with such a build when its less freestyling and I'm more prepared to the difficulties that comes with it.

Its just that it is quite time consuming, so trying out all that stuff isn't easy with all the real life going on.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 03, 2019 02:17 PM

That wasn't what I meant. Logistics, wm and enlightenment are an instant pick the moment they appear. You cannot afford to wait till week 3 to get logistics, you just get it and prioritize wm. Wm is mostly for might heroes though any class with high knowledge(say academy), high attack or a good mix of both can make good use of it. Enlightenment is an instant pick for might heroes too, most of the bonus stats go to might which is a huge advantage.

In maps that allow fast expansion like most toh maps, you can manage around lvl 5-10 week 1 and around 15 or more week 2. If you can manage t7 and castle by end of week 2 you'll have a much easier time. You'll have to pick gold ofc ^^
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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2019 06:42 PM

I see your point regarding Logistics and Enlightenment. Map control, good stats, early boost to mana, while swift mind can change battles in the mid game not to speak the late game.

Though WM I think can be skipped if it appears too late. After my early game without WM it seems like a good pick early on, but way less then an instant pick if it didn't appear till mid week 2.

I think the skill system was changed so that there will be more various builds, and less musts to be picked. For a few classes Enlightenment isn't even an option.

Perhaps you don't take into account that I play on the impossible settings, so I have to pick if I'm going for the tier 6 and 7 creatures or the mage guild early on while skipping one of the high tier creatures (and may be even some of the less used ones among the low level creatures). It feels like skipping some buildings is a must to have a good castle by the end of week 2.

Checking the new skill system, playing vs a magic hero perhaps Shatter Destructive can be nice to have instead of WM. Not only if the magic hero relies on Destructive it can change the battle by quite a lot, but also having an easier life vs all kinds of Spell caster guards and a guaranteed Arcane Armor even if I don't have the full light magic skill yet nor the full mage guild. Didn't try such a build yet, but I might do as seems like the new skill system allows way more valid builds then the 3.1 original one.

You are the experienced one when it comes to Multiplayer. I'm just good at creeping and leveling up my hero. So I could be wrong when things come to Multiplayer as perhaps having a good Catapult can also be quite good at the late game. Though my thought process is that denying one town from my opponent is already game changing, which is why I don't give the Catapult a lot of respect. Or may be there are other reasons I could be wrong.

I also wonder how often do people play Multiplayer with the impossible settings, as I bet most of the Multiplayer games are played on Hard (as long as both of the opponents are decent, my GF had trouble with the normal settings as well). As I'm playing on the impossible settings which may change things slightly.

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fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted January 03, 2019 07:49 PM

No matter how good you'll learn the game in single player, no matter how great are your moves and strategies against impossible settings and scenarios, you'll probably eat a tone of dust and mud if you try to play with another human player that knows heroes.
Hahaha...i'm talking from my own experience.
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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2019 09:18 PM

Well, you are welcome to feed me.
Or in other words, I'd like to play a 1vs1 vs you.

PM me if you want to play.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 03, 2019 09:19 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:21, 03 Jan 2019.

I can confirm. I thought I knew the game and first 6 games were one-sided losses ^^

No matter how much the skill system changes, the only ways to creep optimally with as few losses possible and as few units hired are through wm and magic, it's a matter of game mechanics. That is even more true when you start with less resources and gold. Even ranged unit specialists cannot perform as fast.

I honestly disapprove of skipping dwellings because units like rakshasas and treants are great. But when the alternative is three t7 at day 16, you are better off sacrificing them :/ Granted, if you can rush the opponent in week 2-3 you are better off developing your guild but such maps are quite imbalanced.

I do not like shatters, if you counter destructive you may face mass decay, summonned elementals(fire warriors) or ballista. It could help vs specific neutrals but other skills would still help you develop faster. And tent is better than reduced destructive damage, it will protect you from more threats and save more troops overall. Arcane armour is also rather expensive for earlygame, no?
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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 03, 2019 09:35 PM

Elvin said:

I honestly disapprove of skipping dwellings because units like rakshasas and treants are great. But when the alternative is three t7 at day 16, you are better off sacrificing them :/ Granted, if you can rush the opponent in week 2-3 you are better off developing your guild but such maps are quite imbalanced.



Having 3 Archangles on the first day of week 3 is the outcome I meant by skipping some of the lower level creature dwellings including the t6 one.
Perhaps there are exceptions where the t6 ones can do as well as the t7 if not better, like Nerco or Fortress.

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caracal
caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted January 12, 2019 07:55 PM
Edited by caracal at 19:58, 12 Jan 2019.

Thank you very much for this extensive insight into strategies of different factions. That is exactly what I was looking for to learn. I am dirty casual in heroes and read quite a lot of posts and topics here trying to collect some knowledge from different subjects but you just gave it all on a platter . Thank you once again for your effort. I have a question though. Is HoMaM 5.5 played competitively or is it just for harder PVE? I would like to get better at this iteration of Heroes but I'm not sure if there is point learning all the builds and tactics for 5.5 or should I stick only to pure 5 3.1 since the changes are vast.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 12, 2019 09:17 PM

3.1 is not nearly as good though I'd learn the one my friends played or the one I could find opponents in general but if you play single, I'd recommend H5.5.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted January 12, 2019 11:03 PM

Welcome @caracal,

I would suggest joining our discord channel. There you can look for opponents in the #battlegrounds channel.
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caracal
caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted January 19, 2019 11:53 AM

So I have done several runs on LET'S FIGHT map with my beloved dungeon and wanted to share some of my experience and perhaps read your insight into it (I'm a dirty casual so I'm looking forward to learn from you). So the map is ridiculously rich. Warlock + stalkers creeping is laughably easy on this map. I often get Intelligence and Expert Destruction by day 3. On my first run I didn't even bother building any army. Only mage guild and artifact trader. Took all exp from the chests and beefed up hero to level 13 first week. With that I could clear entire starting zone. Disclaimer I haven't done that on Impossible yet only on hard/heroic which I believe are settings for multiplayer games. I managed to break out around end of week 3, week 4 and finish the map with just stalkers. My second run I decided to run with Overlord. Now I have to admit I suck at might heroes so it was a bit learning curve for me....till I got Sinitar from tavern xD.

I ended up breaking keepers with my secondary warlock hero without losses. At the end of the game my main hero (might overlord) was lvl 28 with 41 ATT and my secondary hero (Destruction warlock) finished with lvl 33 and 47 SP. Which kind of makes me think that as a dungeon you definitely want to develop two heroes. Powerful warlock for hard creeping and hit and run tactic ( I even hit and run vs keepers during that game.) and offensive might hero to sweep up enemy hero after your warlock and bunch of stalkers decimated his army.

Quote:
Yrwanna stands head and shoulders above all other might heroes (sorta the dungeon version of Gorshak).  She is capable of breaking gate keeper stacks before end of week 3 as her stalkers are tremendous offensive units with a solid might build.  With Yrwanna, get Encourage and Aura of Swiftness immediately (so Furies can reach their targets first turn) and then get War Machines->Tent.  Spam Encourage to keep taking extra turns with Furies.  


Now you suggest here to go for WM/tent and furies but I discovered that you can build hydras on city's lvl 6 which on LET'S FIGHT I could do as early as day 3 because town is well developed from the beginning. You upgrade your hydras to deep hydras with regeneration + tent and you can easly clear all the shooters in the starting zone. You might need second week population though since the building alone offers only 3 hydras. Once you have 9 of them You can go nuts with hydras who can block nicely for furies in the corner against melee attackers or hydras alone vs range. I have pulled off something similar with Arcane shooters and Ancient treants with their deep roots ability with Ossir hero. I was even able to take dragons and utopias with this tactics making sure my hydras/treants were positioned in a way that furies/shooters wouldn't be hit by breath.

Now I read somewhere else that building treants is not ideal since it's better to go for dragons faster. Are dragons better tanks for your power stacks than treants and hydras? Am I being cost inefficient? Also what town build order would you suggest for Sylvan town in the 1,2 weeks to maximize creeping. I would like to learn all towns but I really struggle with might heroes. Also is there a point to ever take Assassin class from dungeon? I see they all start with logistics and two heroes seem to have some potential. That is Thralsai
with a specialization RUSHER and Lethos although I don't know how well the plague scales up in the late game. What are your thoughts guys? How well would those tactics work against people?

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Bulya
Bulya

Tavern Dweller
posted January 19, 2019 02:52 PM

I think it was easy for you due to the game being on hard / heroic rather then impossible.

First, on impossible I don't think you have the resources to get 9 hydras by the start of week 2. And I think they are also too costly to rely on that early.

I'm the one who loves might heroes, and does it with might heroes, so we are quite the opposite. And furies were great for Dungeon to clear the map with minimal losses early on (and I'm talking impossible settings here). While doing so I could get the capitol, castle and dragons, with no bother of high tier units. On impossible you start with very little resources, so getting high tier units early on means you delay your tier 6 and tier 7 dwellings, not to speak of upgrading them or the units themselves.

I don't think developing 2 heroes is important if you want a good might hero. I could do it with pure might, using almost no magic for creeping (no magic at all for early creeping), so leveling up a magic hero means the might hero you rely on is going to be way weaker.

It sounds to me like you didn't really get the idea of blockers. Hydras are good finishers, and the regeneration help them with that. But they are very expensive blockers for the first or second week. Blockers will usually be tier 1 or tier 2 units no matter what town is it, and their job is buying time for your high damage output units (shooters for most town, furies for Dungeon) to do damage so that the finishers can engage them and take no losses. Blockers have to be sacrificed many times, which is why you want them to be as cheap as possible.

Yrwanna is a good hero for might Dungeon because she boosts the damage output of the furies, that you will be using no matter what might hero you go for as your high damage output creatures.

I suggest you try it on impossible at least once, and see how well can you do before drawing any conclusions.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 19, 2019 03:12 PM

Might heroes can only play fast with wm but even then you'd be screwed if you faced lots of t7 before week 3. Week 3 maybe if you also had flaming arrows but that depends on what enemies you get.

Good job getting lvl 13 in week 1 but never ever get xp from chests again On the same map you can get lvl 17-18 by end of week 2 just with gold. You're right in that you don't need an army to break through the t7, just guild and artifacts. Might heroes will probably need deep hydras though.

Why would you need treants when you can build dragons a week earlier? Plus they are more efficient with regeneration due to higher hp and init.
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