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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Can we now say H7 is the worst heroes ever?
Thread: Can we now say H7 is the worst heroes ever? This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Tutto possibile
posted December 28, 2016 11:53 PM

What destroyed Detroit? What destroyed my country's industry? What destroyed Zimbabwe's economy?

Politics, the answer is always politics. Ubisoft know how to make games, they just wanted HoMM to have this fate. It's their policy. Why? Hard to tell. The other option is that they simply didn't understand the game, but since everybody understood it, I don't believe that much in this one.
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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted December 29, 2016 12:47 AM
Edited by Brukernavn at 00:49, 29 Dec 2016.

I don't believe Ubisoft wanted their heroes games to fail. H5 was a financial success, and I think it took them by surprise. With H6 they were honest about trying to reach a larger audience and some of the major changes they introduced. By and large this was not received well, even though the game enjoyed moderately positive reviews. With H7 they wanted to "go back to the roots", taking the "best of Heroes". Especially H3 and H5 were frequently mentioned as the reference games they used to develop H7. I do not believe they deliberately failed to meet this objective. They really wanted and tried, but due to a number of different factors they didn't succeed. My impression is that they have been honest about the game not turning out the way they wanted, and I think they mean it.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted December 29, 2016 12:52 AM

Brukernavn said:
I do not believe they deliberately failed to meet this objective. They really wanted and tried, but due to a number of different factors they didn't succeed.


It is obvious the company, after h6 fiasco, gave orders to go back to the roots and is why there was Shadow Council and all that, what I think is that Team Erwin OTOH didn't obey orders and tried to fool both the company and the fans. My worthless speculation ofc.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted December 29, 2016 02:19 AM

Brukernavn said:
With H7 they wanted to "go back to the roots", taking the "best of Heroes". Especially H3 and H5 were frequently mentioned as the reference games they used to develop H7.


It's a pity they were clueless though, as to what made those games great. They even had the balls to admit so themselves, but then stubbornly refused to take any advice freely given by the Shadow Council and the VIP tribune.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted December 29, 2016 02:19 PM

Brukernavn said:
I don't believe Ubisoft wanted their heroes games to fail.


I doubt that too, but it should really be common logic not to release an unfinished product and if it happens, then not to stop trying to fix an unfinished product.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted December 29, 2016 03:10 PM

Maurice said:
Brukernavn said:
With H7 they wanted to "go back to the roots", taking the "best of Heroes". Especially H3 and H5 were frequently mentioned as the reference games they used to develop H7.


It's a pity they were clueless though, as to what made those games great. They even had the balls to admit so themselves, but then stubbornly refused to take any advice freely given by the Shadow Council and the VIP tribune.

I would really like to talk to someone involved in the whole H7 development. To find out what went wrong, or more likely why they released so broken game after all that effort with Shadow Council and so on.

As regards the feedback provided on SC and by VIPs: I believe the problem is fans of this franchise being too different. They can hardly agree on common vision for future games, and some of them are also too blinded with older games. Things like "H5 skill system was the best, so we will criticise any other one". But who should be target audience? H3 players? H5 ones? H6 ones? Or brand new group? You can satissfy all of them.

I don't say Ubisoft could not have listened to us much more - they could and, what's more, they should. But this is the other side of the coin: Many comments, including my own ones, were absolutely useless as they focused on criticising certain things they could not have been changed. Instead of providing feedback, the platform changed into a place filled with criticism even before the launch. That does not provide good conditions for the game development.

Realise many game developments are done behind closed doors and only closely to the release date, devs reveal all details.
I mean, this series' community is very special and has hig hexpectations. H7 Shadow Council project, although I really enjoyed it, was a "perfect" way to enable this community analyse and criticise every single decision done by the team.


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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted December 29, 2016 03:31 PM

Maurice said:
They even had the balls to admit so themselves, but then stubbornly refused to take any advice freely given by the Shadow Council and the VIP tribune.

They haven't seriously taken fan advice for years, so I wonder why they keep pretending like they care about it. I gave up participating in those things after the immensely disappointing 3D H3 release, which was a colossal missed opportunity.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted December 29, 2016 04:05 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:08, 29 Dec 2016.

Antalyan said:
Things like "H5 skill system was the best, so we will criticise any other one".

That is not an H5 fanboy thing, the majority agrees that it was the best system and even ubi knew that much. But they went from H5 best system to let's give H6 system some H5 touches, minus the good H5 parts. Because.. too complex! Must dumb down.

That is a good example of listening to the community but not understanding it. Or worse yet.. they tried to sneak in their own vision because they thought we'd love it, as Erwan said for H6.

With regards to criticizing any other system, do you honestly believe that we'd get this much fanrage if the system was actually good but not similar to H5? I do not. Nor do I believe that H5 is the end objective, H5.5 shows that it had room for plenty of improvements and/or additions. And even without seeing it in action, it was not hard to identify its flaws. The reasonable thing would be to do just that and build upon the system, making an even better one. Even if the team was devoid of ideas, they had our feedback, both in the closed and public forums. Hell, they had a few years' worth of insider ranting just from the H6 development cycle and it was perfectly accessible, visible and understandable. But that was not what they WANTED to do.

So.. wrong team for the job.
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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted December 29, 2016 04:05 PM

You're being extremely dishonest Antalyan, you very well know that 1) with the upvote system it was easy to see a majority's wish among the participants and 2) the blog only became toxic and a place for trolling after it has been made very clear our feedback and opinions were useless and we were being played for fools.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
No Use Crying Erwin Spilt Milk
posted December 29, 2016 04:18 PM

if you have no idea how to develop a video game don't be a video game developer lol

end of story lol

anyone who knows anything knows a random ass community manager from Gameloft who doesn't make games and doesn't care about Heroes was never the one to lead it to greater glory lol
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted December 29, 2016 04:25 PM

Antalyan said:
They can hardly agree on common vision for future games, and some of them are also too blinded with older games. Things like "H5 skill system was the best, so we will criticise any other one".


If you recall, we had some avid discussions here on these forums. Plenty of ideas and constructive criticism. Part of it was to point out flaws in whatever they showed of how they had designed it - which is pretty void of a personal preference of systems from the past. We warned them that a number of things wouldn't work out the way they assumed they would, but instead of reconsidering and taking a closer look, our warnings were ignored. The result is that the game has design flaws now that weren't necessary to begin with.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted December 29, 2016 05:23 PM

Elvin said:
Antalyan said:
Things like "H5 skill system was the best, so we will criticise any other one".

That is not an H5 fanboy thing, the majority agrees that it was the best system and even ubi knew that much. But they went from H5 best system to let's give H6 system some H5 touches, minus the good H5 parts. Because.. too complex! Must dumb down.

That is a good example of listening to the community but not understanding it. Or worse yet.. they tried to sneak in their own vision because they thought we'd love it, as Erwan said for H6.

With regards to criticizing any other system, do you honestly believe that we'd get this much fanrage if the system was actually good but not similar to H5? I do not. Nor do I believe that H5 is the end objective, H5.5 shows that it had room for plenty of improvements and/or additions. And even without seeing it in action, it was not hard to identify its flaws. The reasonable thing would be to do just that and build upon the system, making an even better one. Even if the team was devoid of ideas, they had our feedback, both in the closed and public forums. Hell, they had a few years' worth of insider ranting just from the H6 development cycle and it was perfectly accessible, visible and understandable. But that was not what they WANTED to do.

So.. wrong team for the job.

Well, I think you must do changes when creating new game, that means creating new skill system as well. However, it's obvious the way they followed with H6 one was very bad.

But look at the H7 one, it's pretty good now (the improved random one), and still some complaints about it do appear.

Galaad said:
You're being extremely dishonest Antalyan, you very well know that 1) with the upvote system it was easy to see a majority's wish among the participants

Yes, I do remember the upvoting system. And some proposed ideas were pretty good But with passing time, I realise that for example that money put on lich @ vampire redesign could have been spent in much better way.
Additionally, the general rule is still valid: a dissatissfied person is much more likely to join discussion, to upvote, to review something than a happy one.


Galaad said:
2) the blog only became toxic and a place for trolling after it has been made very clear our feedback and opinions were useless and we were being played for fools.

Not exactly, it did so even before the game release, before we were able to even see the product. Also some proposed ideas were later integrated.

verriker said:
if you have no idea how to develop a video game don't be a video game developer lol


If you have no idea how to develop a workingvideo game don't be a video game developer. If you have no idea how quality looks like don't be a video game quality controler.

Don't tell me, tell Ubisoft

Maurice said:
Antalyan said:
They can hardly agree on common vision for future games, and some of them are also too blinded with older games. Things like "H5 skill system was the best, so we will criticise any other one".


If you recall, we had some avid discussions here on these forums. Plenty of ideas and constructive criticism. Part of it was to point out flaws in whatever they showed of how they had designed it - which is pretty void of a personal preference of systems from the past. We warned them that a number of things wouldn't work out the way they assumed they would, but instead of reconsidering and taking a closer look, our warnings were ignored. The result is that the game has design flaws now that weren't necessary to begin with.

I agree with that




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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted December 29, 2016 06:01 PM

Antalyan said:
hexpectations.


lol
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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted December 29, 2016 06:18 PM

Antalyan said:
Yes, I do remember the upvoting system. And some proposed ideas were pretty good But with passing time, I realise that for example that money put on lich @ vampire redesign could have been spent in much better way.


Yes it is true but remember at that time we had no other indication than "will be similar to h3 and h5" regarding the gameplay and we didn't have much to argue about that so energy was put on other things, like lore and flavor.

Antalyan said:
Not exactly, it did so even before the game release, before we were able to even see the product. Also some proposed ideas were later integrated.


Before game release does not mean we haven't seen the product, there were plenty of information and screenshots to show the game and we had each skills and spells, creature abilities and faction direction available already + there has been the "beta" testing. Before the beta I knew exactly what I was going to play, and didn't meet any surprise then. We wanted to prevent a catastrophic release due to the tremendous amount of decisions we deemed to be downright awful, shouting to the death about things like 1+1=2.

Oh and how grand of them to implement one or two things that should have been obvious since the beginning AFTER the release lmao, that's like saying "no you're wrong", then "ah turns out you were right, well now praise us!". And the game crippled by bugs was just the cherry on the top.

Antalyan said:
Additionally, the general rule is still valid: a dissatissfied person is much more likely to join discussion, to upvote, to review something than a happy one.


I don't know about that, I hear you quite often.
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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted December 29, 2016 06:51 PM

Galaad said:
Antalyan said:
Not exactly, it did so even before the game release, before we were able to even see the product. Also some proposed ideas were later integrated.


Before game release does not mean we haven't seen the product, there were plenty of information and screenshots to show the game and we had each skills and spells, creature abilities and faction direction available already + there has been the "beta" testing. Before the beta I knew exactly what I was going to play, and didn't meet any surprise then. We wanted to prevent a catastrophic release due to the tremendous amount of decisions we deemed to be downright awful, shouting to the death about things like 1+1=2.

Oh and how grand of them to implement one or two things that should have been obvious since the beginning AFTER the release lmao, that's like saying "no you're wrong", then "ah turns out you were right, well now praise us!". And the game crippled by bugs was just the cherry on the top.

I remember it clearly and I was strongly against H7 being released in its state as well.

It is true that certain things should have been in since the early beginning, not later due to fans' complaints. However, it's a circle as they could not manage it due to low development time and budget... and Ubilimbic (especially Ubi) is fully to be blamed for that.

Galaad said:
Antalyan said:
Additionally, the general rule is still valid: a dissatissfied person is much more likely to join discussion, to upvote, to review something than a happy one.


I don't know about that, I hear you quite often.

Exception proves the rule
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted December 29, 2016 08:05 PM
Edited by Stevie at 20:23, 29 Dec 2016.

Corribus said:
I still contend after all these years that 3D is the worst thing that ever happened to the HoMM franchise.

But anyway, H7 is on sale on Steam, almost 70% off MSRP. I never played H6 and wondered whether H7 was worth buying at this low price. From this thread and aggregate opinion around the interwebs, it seems the answer is no. Sad to see what this once-great franchise has become.

Anyone want to change my impression?

The ironic thing is that the formula for a successful HoMM game is so simple. It's a game furthermore that is perfectly suited for 2D format. It should be easy to put out a great game on a modest budget. Ubisoft just seems unwilling or incapable of doing it.


You know, after researching the M&M franchise and reaching a peak in involvement in the last couple of years, I can confidently say that there was no point in time when you could blame 3D for its downfall. You can't even expect to be able to pin the entire blame on a single feature, there's no feature that carries the entire burden of a game to impact it so. What I can tell for the Heroes series under Ubisoft is that the primary reason why the game went on a downward spiral was a combination of low interest (budget), mismanagement (inexperienced and cheap devs) and lack of creative vision (the M&M division under Ubi, currently Erwan and gang). Everything that you see in the game itself is a consequence of that.

Galaad said:
It is obvious the company, after h6 fiasco, gave orders to go back to the roots and is why there was Shadow Council and all that, what I think is that Team Erwin OTOH didn't obey orders and tried to fool both the company and the fans. My worthless speculation ofc.


So according to you Erwan deliberately sabotaged Ubisoft and the Heroes community because.. he is pure evil? *tin foil hat*

Corribus said:
Maurice said:
They even had the balls to admit so themselves, but then stubbornly refused to take any advice freely given by the Shadow Council and the VIP tribune.

They haven't seriously taken fan advice for years, so I wonder why they keep pretending like they care about it. I gave up participating in those things after the immensely disappointing 3D H3 release, which was a colossal missed opportunity.


Indeed an utterly missed opportunity. Just take a moment to see how Microsoft did things with Age of Empires 2, another legendary classic like Heroes released in the same year of 1999. Not only did they make a proper HD release, but they also implemented The Forgotten as an official expansion (HotA equivalent) and also released some new expansions in the last couple of years, the latest just days ago, Rise of the Rajas. There was no reason why Ubisoft couldn't have done the same thing for Heroes, but that just goes to show the level of interest they have for the franchise: cash cow.
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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted December 29, 2016 09:42 PM

Stevie said:
So according to you Erwan deliberately sabotaged Ubisoft and the Heroes community because.. he is pure evil? *tin foil hat*


It is obviously out of career and financial interest that he did what he did, it just didn't work out as planned, since not so many (to say the least) appreciate his work on the brand, but nice strawman.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Tutto possibile
posted December 29, 2016 09:48 PM

verriker said:
if you have no idea how to develop a video game don't be a video game developer lol

end of story lol

anyone who knows anything knows a random ass community manager from Gameloft who doesn't make games and doesn't care about Heroes was never the one to lead it to greater glory lol



Words of wisdom.

And if you are aware of your lack of abilities, and ignore the fans repetitive feedback, then you are, maybe unconsciously I'll admit it, sabotaging the game by taking its development too lightly.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 29, 2016 10:17 PM

I don't think he took it lightly, because his future as game developer depends on each game reception, and now is looking pretty bad. Also for same reason, he probably didn't believe that listening to the fans would help in any way, what is those fans experience as game developers, by the way? Erwan gambled his future and his job, this is rather high risk, you don't throw it in the hands of random people on the net, no matter how much they claim to love the game.

He gambled, he lost, that's what happens with a majority of games anyway, not everyone is Firaxis.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Tutto possibile
posted December 29, 2016 10:51 PM

It is still funny to see how Ubisoft has a sense of propriety, which I see as mere segregation. They do cherish the Assassin's creed series and put it their top priority, while on the other hand a series like heroes is not seen the same way, not worth their best developpers. Heroes IS a great game, they had to consider it that way in order to develop a release worth its importance. They had to be professional in making a game, yet they surely didn't give it all they had since, let's be honest, they are capable of making games.

No one wants to lose, Erwan didn't want to. What I dislike about Ubisoft, is that they know with which games they could almost carelessly take risks with. You might bet on a horse that has less odds of winning the race, but you can't bet on the lamb one and wonder why you lost.
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