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| Thread: Terrorist attack at Berlin |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maurice
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Part of the furniture
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posted December 21, 2016 12:14 PM |
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Let's face it that religion has always been a tool throughout human history to control the masses. Keep people dumb, prevent them from thinking for themselves and point out the enemy. Brand those who dare to think a bit further than the base doctrine being offered by whoever is preaching as heretics and have them burn at the stake, or behead them, or whatever. This makes sure that a few people keep the reigns tight and able to control, manipulate and direct the general populace as they see fit.
The strange thing is, that such methods of crowd control actually go directly against the very core of the faith or doctrine being preached. Alas. Christianity seems to have shed most of its violent edge over the past centuries, while Islam is currently flaring up. I have no doubt that eventually, they will lose their violent edge too and move towards the way AlHazin considers it. It's a pity that so much blood needs to flow before we reach that point, though.
Strife has always been a part of human nature and abusing power to effectuate that strife has been as old as the first moment the earth counted 2 human beings. Mytical's view on how we should all learn to get along is somewhat naive, as strife is actually the very source of our progression, the drive of the survival of the fittest. Hence, it's in our DNA and learning to disregard that part is extremely hard. Besides that, we need strife in order to progress; hurdles to tackle, to gain new insights in how to deal with a challenge posed ahead of us as a species. It's good to compete with others to see who's the first to come up with a working solution - we just should do it with a lot less bloodshed.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 21, 2016 12:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:01, 21 Dec 2016.
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Maurice said:
Let's face it that religion politics has always been a tool throughout human history to control [or organize, it's not categorically an evil thing] the masses.
The important factor here is to remember that religion was politics, tradition, art, social activity, cosmology, philosophy... It was all a package, distinguishing between politics (as in affairs of the state) and religion is a very new concept. Rulers were the representatives of a "godly" order before secularism.
Maurice said:
The strange thing is, that such methods of crowd control actually go directly against the very core of the faith or doctrine being preached.
Not really, once again, individualism is younger than religions. Before individualism, religious or not, there was no distinctive discourse that opened up the parenthesis of "your values" against "the mass". Even "pioneers" who were controversial to some specific order or tradition and who tried to transform them, were trying to transform them in a conductive manner. This is so with Platon or Confucius as well as "prophets." Your comment is a "reformed" one, and I use the word reformed with also relevance to the history of the Church, sola fide solea scriptura.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 21, 2016 12:53 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
JollyJoker said:
You don't need a religion to start to kill people and eventually take the suicide road.
What is your freaking point here? Do you honestly believe us to be so dull we can't understand violence is not always tied to religion? You're really a couple of quartz low today Jolly.
I honestly believe you to be so dull that you can't understand that violence is never tied to religion or an "ism", but with the personal situation people are in. People don't become suicide bombers because they believe in a certain religion, people - INDIVIDUAL people - become suicide bombers because they are DELUDED, and for delusion there are many reasons, but religion isn't the REASON. It may however, serve, as other things as well, as FUEL to feed that delusion.
You should know that propaganda, done the right way, can make people believe a lot and do a lot, and when you consider the personal situation some of the refugees are in and the culture shock they suffer from, then it's no wonder some of them fall for it, looking for something to cling to.
By the way - you ARE realizing you could have saved you a lot of effort by just writing "bullcrap", do you?
The way I do now
@ Salamandre
Bullcrap. A whole load of it from someone who has no idea what he's talking about. You could just say, "we must sort out the terrorists at the border and don't let them in".
You should know that's not possible. If a well-financed terror organization like Al Quaida WANTS to start something in a country, they would sent some operatives with fake papers, well-educated, cover as businessman, who'll then start to build a cell by recruiting IN country.
The so-called terror attacks of single deluded people are basically white noise created by a combination of delusion in individuals and the default internet propaganda of IS and others.
If you would make a "satanist" website, drowning on about stuff, you'd also find a couple of deluded who'd feel the pull to serve the master and go out and drink some blood ort whatever.
If YOU were right, there'd be terror attacks each day, and handfuls of them, because it's obviously pretty easy to drive a car into a group of people. There is also nothing you can do about it.
That's not happening, though, which means you are wrong. That simple.
And by the way, why would I call you a "failed" immigrant? That you prepared your immigration well is fine, but not everyone has the means or even the time to do so. Refugees are called that for a reason.
No, you are simply of the opinion that you WORKED for the betterment of your personal situation, and as is the case with a lot of people who really work for something you don't find it fair that others reap the same benefits for no work at all. Very common. Nothing special. Biblical. They who don't work shall not eat.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 21, 2016 01:15 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:27, 21 Dec 2016.
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Al true JJ, but:
JJ said:
If you would make a "satanist" website, drowning on about stuff, you'd also find a couple of deluded who'd feel the pull to serve the master and go out and drink some blood ort whatever.
Because of the political context, the war in Middle East, the global economical gaps, one of the channels that feed such a delusion escalates significantly. There are not as many satanists who actually kill themselves in such attacks. A Muslim who has a good job, education, social relevance etc won't fall into such delusion but when 200 years industrialized West with its sunk in social norms suddenly clashes with ex-colonial masses from dominantly feudal values, such delusion evolves into something more than a psychological issue, it becomes a sociological one. Majority still adapts but the ones who don't cant be examined purely as nut job losers. Imagine there were Satanist countries constantly being bombarded and there was a mainstream Satanist culture with its history, states, education etc, and that Satanists were originally from such countries, switching from an habitat where Satanism was constantly being praised, into a one that is being constantly stigmatized, you'd have a more accurate picture.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted December 21, 2016 01:43 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I honestly believe you to be so dull that you can't understand that violence is never tied to religion or an "ism", but with the personal situation people are in.
A couple of quartz low indeed. Violence is not always tied to religion, but it most certainly can be and if you deny this then I fear you are so inept you could not tell a bird from a whale. -.-
JollyJoker said:
People don't become suicide bombers because they believe in a certain religion, people - INDIVIDUAL people - become suicide bombers because they are DELUDED, and for delusion there are many reasons, but religion isn't the REASON. It may however, serve, as other things as well, as FUEL to feed that delusion.
I am starting to wonder if you are getting paid to say all of this to be honest.
First of all, people can become suicide bombers because they believe in a religion if said religion or anyone tied to it preaches that suicide bombing is the way to go. To believe in this makes you deluded in our eyes, but not in the eyes of the religion, but mark my words the religion is the source of the delusion, for without it said person would not have been deluded or being kept deluded.
JollyJoker said:
You should know that propaganda, done the right way, can make people believe a lot and do a lot, and when you consider the personal situation some of the refugees are in and the culture shock they suffer from, then it's no wonder some of them fall for it, looking for something to cling to.
Some refugees are in a pinch, no doubt about that, but they are still responsible for their actions and if they fall for propaganda then it's their fault in the end.
JollyJoker said:
By the way - you ARE realizing you could have saved you a lot of effort by just writing "bullcrap", do you?
I hope you do realise the only reason for why I don't just flare you out and shout more curses into your ears than you can possibly imagine is due to the code here.
JollyJoker said:
They who don't work shall not eat.
Oh really? Then please explain why we give them free apartments, benefits for medical healthcare, free money etc, and why many of them seems to be refugees just because of this? Not to mention we are knee deep in trouble already because of this? I mean it's not like our children or grandparents are worth anything, they can all burn in hell right?...
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JollyJoker
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posted December 21, 2016 01:44 PM |
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I don't consider delusion as being a "nut job".
The inquisition wasn't a group of nut jobs, on the contrary. If you really do believe that life is just a drop in the ocean of eternity and god will punish the unrepentent sinner with eternal hell, you are no nut job when you dismiss this life in favor of eternity - you are just deluded, when you try to force this view onto others.
Complex issues are always multi-causal. As I tried to describe, it's folly to simply confront people fleeing or immigrating from drastically different societies with their new environment without making an effort to teach and educate them. That doesn't make any sense at all, and that is covering the social or societal side of the equation - as a matter of course the religious organisations in immigration countries should also do everything possible to help immigrants with their religion to find their feet.
Still, the number of deluded people is relatively small, and the number of SUICIDE attackers is even smaller. People like to be able to put the blame on someone or something.
Now, when it comes to religion, my opinion about it should be known, especially about the monotheistic ones. But if you look at the islam, the problem is the oppression of 50% of the population - as was the problem with Christianity and Jews (and is still in part). Remember the wars in Europe, when society still was male-dominated? That is the real problem. You cannot let men run the show, because testosteron has adverse side effects.
You don't see so many shool shootings, terror attacks, suicide attacks and "delusion crimes" made by women, do you?
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 21, 2016 01:54 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
Some refugees are in a pinch, no doubt about that, but they are still responsible for their actions and if they fall for propaganda then it's their fault in the end.
And it is your fault to say:
Ebonheart said:
You forgot the part where you muslims see us as dogs and shall lie to us. Thus you have no proof at all and you never will have in terms of an argument, because we will never be able to take your word.
This mentality will be more effective than 1000 ISIS web sites, you can be sure of that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted December 21, 2016 02:02 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Complex issues are always multi-causal. As I tried to describe, it's folly to simply confront people fleeing or immigrating from drastically different societies with their new environment without making an effort to teach and educate them.
But see here's the part you don't seem to get: They might not want to be educated or we might not want to spend time educating them. Have you ever taken that into your calculations?
JollyJoker said:
Still, the number of deluded people is relatively small, and the number of SUICIDE attackers is even smaller. People like to be able to put the blame on someone or something.
For once we agree, but on different points. The number of deluded people is indeed small in terms of population numbers, but minding how much destruction 1 person with a Truck, a hand grenade or a AK47 can cause, those "few" are suddenly "too many".
Best part of it all? Yes we do put the blame on someone, often someone who just happens to have similar appearance. Why? Because it's almost hopeless to not do it since in the end you look for similar things to avoid or ward of threats.
JollyJoker said:
Remember the wars in Europe, when society still was male-dominated? That is the real problem. You cannot let men run the show, because testosteron has adverse side effects.
You are probably the biggest sexist, racist and hypocrite I have ever come across in my life. Congratulations. But here's a pro tip, women are not without weaknesses either and you'd be surprised to discover they can be just as mean, cold hearted and deceptful as men.
When you let humans run the show.
JollyJoker said:
You don't see so many shool shootings, terror attacks, suicide attacks and "delusion crimes" made by women, do you?
Once again F***ing sexist. There have been such attacks by women aswell. Ever heard of female prisons? They are there for a reason.
I think it is best if from now on you and I do not ever cross paths again here on the forum. /Ignore on.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted December 21, 2016 02:05 PM |
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artu said:
This mentality will be more effective than 1000 ISIS web sites, you can be sure of that.
If you read the book, you will find what I said in the lines, I merely quoted it. But more effective than 1k WS? Certainly.
Does it matter? No.
I brand anyone part of the religion a hypocrite, murderer and a threat, end of story.
That is my belief and I stick to it.
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted December 21, 2016 02:08 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Salamandre is an immigrant himself, so he can't be against immigration as such.
That is something I have always had a hard time to grasp. Not targeting Sal here specific since I think he has made his stance on immigration clear in a logical and rational manner.
If I understood correct he is not against immigration, but against leeching, i.e. people who come to another country only to drain it without ever trying to become something themselves.
But it is also so in my personal life that all the people I can remember right now who are against people coming to my country are themselves first generation children of immigrants. They have brilliant parents who have made a life here with dedication to the field they work in and my guess is they are high middle class economical speaking. Their children, my friends, those who are against immigration are taking educations on a, I guess, much higher level than their parents did and are about to become doctors, lawyers, etc.
But they never speak about people who come here only for the support they can get and expect not to have to do anything, they always say foreigners, mainly from their parents country actually.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 21, 2016 02:22 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
artu said:
This mentality will be more effective than 1000 ISIS web sites, you can be sure of that.
If you read the book, you will find what I said in the lines, I merely quoted it. But more effective than 1k WS? Certainly.
Does it matter? No.
I brand anyone part of the religion a hypocrite, murderer and a threat, end of story.
That is my belief and I stick to it.
The book is just a book, when you meet a Christian, you don't say "according to your book I will burn in hell, so I won't be taking your word for anything," do you? Nobody's life can be contemplated by following a book word by word, they happen to believe is holy. All of the books in the world are open to zillions of interpretations, no matter how far-fetched. If readers are literalists, go ahead and shoot, if they are not, don't be one instead of them. People are born into traditions they wont be willing to give up for various reasons, this does not necessarily reduce them into it.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 21, 2016 02:29 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
artu said:
This mentality will be more effective than 1000 ISIS web sites, you can be sure of that.
If you read the book, you will find what I said in the lines, I merely quoted it. But more effective than 1k WS? Certainly.
Does it matter? No.
I brand anyone part of the religion a hypocrite, murderer and a threat, end of story.
That is my belief religion and I stick to it.
Corrected that for you. Ah, but I forget, you are in ignorance mode now, after a fit of namecalling. But then, you are probably in it for a long time already, so no need to stress that.
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LizardWarrior
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the reckoning is at hand
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posted December 21, 2016 02:41 PM |
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BBC said:
Spiegel reported that police were looking for a Tunisian named Anis A, born in 1992 in the city of Tataouine, after a temporary-stay permit was found under a seat in the cab of the lorry.
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fred79
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posted December 21, 2016 03:15 PM |
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lol. this thread will definitely be closed.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 21, 2016 03:17 PM |
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artu said:
The important factor here is to remember that religion was politics, tradition, art, social activity, cosmology, philosophy... It was all a package, distinguishing between politics (as in affairs of the state) and religion is a very new concept. Rulers were the representatives of a "godly" order before secularism.
True enough, but the main banner was religion. Back in the Middle Ages, it was used to fuel the Crusades, for instance. Beneath the curtain, however, the Crusades were mainly a vehicle to ease off the stress that existed between the various European powers, most notably between France and England, as well as internal problems, like those in the Holy Roman Empire.
The bottom line, however, is that mankind will always have people who will try to impose their will on others and shape and steer them according to their desires. Religion was a powerful banner to use back in the old days of what's currently the modern Western world. I have the feeling that large parts of the Middle East have been getting a rough wakening up in the past few decades, especially through agitation by military interventions and invasions, but also with the rise of the internet and "social media", giving those people quite a culture shock. Extremists like those salafists are using that to manipulate the population by pointing out the enemy to be the Western world. And as they rise up against that, right-wing parties use pretty much the same propaganda tactics to rile up the people as well.
Artu said:
Not really, once again, individualism is younger than religions.
I wasn't talking about individualism, I was talking about freedom at large. By manipulating and steering a people in a certain direction (a direction of your choosing, as the religious head of whatever you adhere to), you actually drive the flock away from the true intentions of just about the core of any major religion: to live in peace and harmony with those around you and to let any ultimate judgment to whatever deity you believe in.
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Salamandre
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posted December 21, 2016 03:27 PM |
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Heated discussion between one fully indoctrinated individual and the common sense.
Look JJ, you want to teach immigrants and form them to integrate, go ahead but for god's sake, give us a break about. I have other responsibilities and priorities. Don't forget that your own country has a high number of unemployed and poor people, so asking the state (you are aware, this means the taxpayer) to educate and teach further immigrants, thus invest money in people from far away while ignoring those close-by, is just showing you don't give a damn about your country and your fellow citizens. At such degree of patriotic indifference, why don't you just move in some Islamic country you seems to appreciate and excuse so much, where the simple fact of running loudly your mouth like here will bring you a lot of multicultural enhancements, as a dry and shrunken cell.
Is because such sectarian mode of thinking that Europe is now collapsing and people feel disunited.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 21, 2016 03:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:28, 21 Dec 2016.
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@Maurice
You weren't talking about individualism but you were spontaneously formulating through it when saying "such methods of crowd control actually go directly against the very core of the faith or doctrine being preached." That was the catch.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted December 21, 2016 03:37 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
That is something I have always had a hard time to grasp. Not targeting Sal here specific since I think he has made his stance on immigration clear in a logical and rational manner.
[...]
But it is also so in my personal life that all the people I can remember right now who are against people coming to my country are themselves first generation children of immigrants.
What you -and JJ, have a hard time to grasp is that successful immigration means successful integration. Therefore people undergoing through this positive process don't feel anymore as "strangers", "the other", but as functional cells into the new organism, they care now about this new country, they act like full endorsed citizens. They have a responsibility.
You guys are incredible. One time you say that we must help immigrants to become part of the country but then when they do, you also claim that they don't have the right of having opinions about this or that, because, oh well ... they were immigrants. Congrats guys.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 21, 2016 03:55 PM |
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artu said:
@Maurice
You weren't talking about individualism but you were spontaneously formulating through it when saying "such methods of crowd control actually go directly against the very core of the faith or doctrine being preached." That was the catch.
Hmm, I see your point, but that's not what I meant. You look at it from the point of view of individuals within that crowd; I am looking at it from the point of view of the "shepherd" who's guiding that flock for his own political/religious agenda; i.e., for his own personal gain instead of the benefit of the flock.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 21, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Heated discussion between one fully indoctrinated individual and the common sense.
Look JJ, you want to teach immigrants and form them to integrate, go ahead but for god's sake, give us a break about. I have other responsibilities and priorities. Don't forget that your own country has a high number of unemployed and poor people, so asking the state (you are aware, this means the taxpayer) to educate and teach further immigrants, thus invest money in people from far away while ignoring those close-by, is just showing you don't give a damn about your country and your fellow citizens. At such degree of patriotic indifference, why don't you just move in some Islamic country you seems to appreciate and excuse so much, where the simple fact of running loudly your mouth like here will bring you a lot of multicultural enhancements, as a dry and shrunken cell.
Is because such sectarian mode of thinking that Europe is now collapsing and people feel disunited.
I suppose, you aren't even realizing how irrational you are arguing; obviously I'm not in favor of either islamic countries or the islam or even religion - but I AM in favor to share with those in need, and those in need are actually FLEEING these countries, so if I sympathize with them, why should I then immigrate into a country they fled from?
Also, you completely warp my line of arguing. I'm saying, IF WE DO open our borders for immigrants, THEN it's our duty to make sure they can ADAPT. See that? It's CONDITIONAL. IF WE DO A THEN WE HAVE TO DO B - OR ELSE (you can expect trouble, and "trouble" isn't necessarily terror attacks, but more like crime and ghetto-building.
Think about it when you are in a good mood.
Germany has made good experience with immigrants, not only recently with the Turks. The Ruhr has seen a steady influx from Poles, who were mining coal there, for example. The famous "Schimanski" figure, the Duisburg TV detective, hints to that. Many Germans have names ending with -ki. We also have a lot ending on -ic from former Yugoslavia (and that includes moslems). We have OF COURSE a lot of Turks, but there is ONE THING these all had in common: Germany (or what was before) NEEDED workers, so there was work for immigrants, lots of work actually, and work you didn't need a lot of education for. They learned the language on the fly, and in low-pay/high-risk jobs you either get along fast or their will be accidents.
This is different now, and THAT is the mistake all the politicians are making. And, mind you, it's the same mistake they are trying to avoid with the unemployed - a lot of money is invested into re-education, simply because the speed of jobs going extinct has massively increased. There aren't many coal miners left anymore, mind you.
Now, sure, education costs money - but only on short notice. It also creates jobs - you need teachers, for example, and you also need sec personal, because if I had a say in it I would make knowledge of the language and the rules and laws of the new society at least a prerequisite for being allowed to leave the refugee camps.
Helping these people needs a bit more than a gruff "well, then, come on in, if you must."
Of course, France and Britain have their own problems with their past as colonial powers.
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