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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: The Colour Blue
Thread: The Colour Blue This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 02, 2017 02:10 PM

If I remember correctly, when it comes to modern flags, it's about French revolution era symbolism, red fraternity, blue liberty and white equality, which is also the French flag. That's the revolution that triggered nation-states anyway.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 02, 2017 02:13 PM

"Fraternity". So that's what kids are calling it these days.
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Maurice
Maurice

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posted January 02, 2017 04:45 PM

Blizzardboy said:
I wonder when France adopted the Flor de Lis in the blue background? I think they've been using it for a really long time.


To be precise: since Jeanne d'Arc (jan. 6th 1412 - may 30th 1431) started using it as her banner, when she rallied France behind it against the English towards the end of the 100-year wars. Somewhere early in her rise, she had a vision which told her to look for a rusty sword in an old cemetary. Sure enough, the people she sent there found the sword in the place where she said it would be and found that it had belonged to Charlemagne, also known as Charles the Great. The blade was adorned with his symbol, which was a "Fleur de Lis". Jeanne d'Arc adopted it as her own symbol and through that act, it became the symbol for France nationalism.


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AlHazin
AlHazin


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Tutto possibile
posted January 02, 2017 05:37 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 17:38, 02 Jan 2017.

Lord_Woock said:
So you'd say it appeared out of the blue?

*rimshot*


See why I want to become a mod mate, just to give you QPs for your silliness...


alcibiades said:
This is a subject that really fascinates me as a physicist, and it's not the first time I read about these tribes that can't distinguish blue. But ... to say that blue is rare in nature is not exactly accurate. Apart from the blue sky mentioned, there's a plethora of bright blue flowers in all different shades, not to mention some birds and many fish sporting distinctively blue colours.

Also, there are many places in the world where the ocean is distinctly blue. One of the more spectacular examples I've experienced of this was in a city called Nonza on Corsica. I took this picture a couple of years ago, and this was actually how it looked (I have not tweaked the colours or pumped up the saturation).



That's the point of the study pal, if we apply its conclusions in the picture you posted, if you're not previously aware that there's a colour called blue and the sky is blue, you won't perceive or "see" the sky as blue, and you won't see the sea as blue cause its colour is a reflection of that of the sky. It might be unbelievable, but while we see a lively blue in the pic, others (ancients, Himbas...) would see it white or green or not at all. It's like that robe that spread through the internet, some saw it blue and purple, while others saw it white and gold, so even in the same era, people happen to see colours very differently. Not to mention that blue flowers are mainly human creations through crossbreeding, while many blue animals like frogs, caterpillars or parrots are usually exotic thus mostly unknown.

Back in time, red on the other side was a very mastered colour in dye, at the point where we used to distinguish between a cloth being red, and a cloth being couloured.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 02, 2017 06:01 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 18:07, 02 Jan 2017.

Maurice said:
Blizzardboy said:
I wonder when France adopted the Flor de Lis in the blue background? I think they've been using it for a really long time.


To be precise: since Jeanne d'Arc (jan. 6th 1412 - may 30th 1431) started using it as her banner, when she rallied France behind it against the English towards the end of the 100-year wars. Somewhere early in her rise, she had a vision which told her to look for a rusty sword in an old cemetary. Sure enough, the people she sent there found the sword in the place where she said it would be and found that it had belonged to Charlemagne, also known as Charles the Great. The blade was adorned with his symbol, which was a "Fleur de Lis". Jeanne d'Arc adopted it as her own symbol and through that act, it became the symbol for France nationalism.




So it was used by Charlemagne but not an official standard until the Hundred Years War?

I thought the Flor de Lis had some sort of connection with Mariology since it had the blue background, but I guess blue wasn't strongly associated with the Theotokos until Renaissance era, when blue was a highly expensive paint and therefore frequently reserved for Marian art. Before that she was often seen in red or gold since white paint was not available. I mean green. I mean blue!  

Maybe in Monty Python, Sir Gwain was cutting edge for having blue as his (second) favorite color. It seems today that blue is the most common favorite color to have.
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Geny
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posted January 02, 2017 06:17 PM

Quote:
I remember from anatomy (one of my favorite classes) that the cones in the human eye, which are the devices for detecting color, are disposed towards yellow, red, and green, which I suppose would be the 3 most common shades we'd find in nature.

Pretty sure its blue, green and red.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 02, 2017 06:34 PM

The three primary colors are red, yellow and blue. You get green by mixing yellow and blue.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 02, 2017 06:38 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 18:43, 02 Jan 2017.

That is only in art, artu.

While I believe we humans have 3 basic colors, some animals have many more, meaning they can perhaps see colors we can not imagine (I mean how do you imagine a color you have never seen?).

Edit: OT, while the physical phenomena of experiencing a color doesn't change, how we work with our senses does depend on our experiences.
E.g. if you've never bothered to define right or left, being in a situation where using these terms would be helpful would make the situation much more difficult for someone without this experience.
Another example, when you play chess the board is numbered 1-8 and a-h, which is just another way of saying 1-8. If you play blindfolded you'd like to know e.g. what letter corresponds to an even or an odd number which helps to determine how the game looks, but if you like me for some odd reason always mess up with letters f-h (which is a bit strange cause I can quickly put a number on every other letter), then you easily get confused.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


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posted January 02, 2017 06:45 PM

There's that shrimp that can perceive many things. While we perceive spectrum of RGB, as being counted as 3 or so, they can perceive 14 stances. They can see gama rays and everything. Imagining that sort of vision is indeed impossibru.

I like the blue in the nature, I mean, not when saying skies and waters, many times showing a poisonous nature about it. Even nature poises it unique.


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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 02, 2017 06:46 PM
Edited by artu at 18:47, 02 Jan 2017.

@Ohfor

Yes, you'right. Tricolor Mechanism of Color Detection.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 02, 2017 06:53 PM

Geny said:
Quote:
I remember from anatomy (one of my favorite classes) that the cones in the human eye, which are the devices for detecting color, are disposed towards yellow, red, and green, which I suppose would be the 3 most common shades we'd find in nature.

Pretty sure its blue, green and red.


Maybe it was
Green was in there somewhere, which is totally weird. The human eye is a rebel.
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alcibiades
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posted January 03, 2017 12:16 AM

AlHazin said:
That's the point of the study pal, if we apply its conclusions in the picture you posted, if you're not previously aware that there's a colour called blue and the sky is blue, you won't perceive or "see" the sky as blue, and you won't see the sea as blue cause its colour is a reflection of that of the sky.

I get that. The point I wanted to make is that there are ample of representations in nature of the colour that we today call blue. I didn't find the statement "blue is rare in nature" to be accurate.

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alcibiades
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posted January 03, 2017 12:25 AM

Geny said:
Quote:
I remember from anatomy (one of my favorite classes) that the cones in the human eye, which are the devices for detecting color, are disposed towards yellow, red, and green, which I suppose would be the 3 most common shades we'd find in nature.

Pretty sure its blue, green and red.

artu said:
The three primary colors are red, yellow and blue. You get green by mixing yellow and blue.

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. First off, while the cones are normally referred to as "blue", "green" and "red", the "red" cone actually absorps mostly in the yellow area:


Notice also that there is a significant overlap between the absorption area of the green and "red" rod. So the mind does not recognize the colour by the signal from one of the rods, but rather by the difference between the different rods.

With regards to colour mixing: The primary colours depend on whether you mix light or pigments. When mixing light, primary colours are red, green and blue. If you mix green and red light, for instance by taking a lamp of each colour and point towards the same spot, the mind will perceive it as yellow (quite a fascinating experiment, really).


However, if you mix pigments, you have different primary colours, because what pigements do is essentially remove the light of certain colours from the light source. For instance yellow pigment removes blue but passes green and red (because yellow = green + red light). Cyan similarly passes green and blue. If you mix yellow and cyan, only green passes.

Anyway, that was physics lesson of the day.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 03, 2017 12:34 AM

Yes, I checked it out after Ohfor's post, you noticed my answer to him has the link of the same graph you put in here? But your explanation was additionaly helpful in understanding why is it green in some cases and yellow in others, so thanks.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 03, 2017 02:53 AM

alcibiades said:
AlHazin said:
That's the point of the study pal, if we apply its conclusions in the picture you posted, if you're not previously aware that there's a colour called blue and the sky is blue, you won't perceive or "see" the sky as blue, and you won't see the sea as blue cause its colour is a reflection of that of the sky.

I get that. The point I wanted to make is that there are ample of representations in nature of the colour that we today call blue. I didn't find the statement "blue is rare in nature" to be accurate.


Then why don't ancient languages have the color blue

I'm scared now.
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Corribus
Corribus

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posted January 03, 2017 04:14 AM
Edited by Corribus at 04:15, 03 Jan 2017.

Pure water is very very light blue due to overtone vibrations, which are mostly forbidden transitions in quantum mechanics - allowed only because molecular vibrations are actually slightly anharmonic. The reason an ocean appears blue but a glass of water does not is simply a path length effect, a nice demonstation of Beers Law. In point of fact a glass of water is also blue but your eyes aren't good enough to tell (then isit really blue if you cant perceive it? Hmmm) The blue of the sky on the other hand is due to efficient scattering of high energy light, a completely different paradigm of optical physics.

Well that's a little bit on the physics of blue in the natural elements of the world.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 03, 2017 09:25 AM

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Alci & Corribus.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


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posted January 03, 2017 11:17 AM

alcibiades said:
I get that. The point I wanted to make is that there are ample of representations in nature of the colour that we today call blue. I didn't find the statement "blue is rare in nature" to be accurate.


I get it now ^^

Blizzardboy said:
Then why don't ancient languages have the color blue

I'm scared now.


The blue has always existed, it was there blizz, it's just that they didn't see it like we do.
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alcibiades
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posted January 03, 2017 11:40 AM

Blizzardboy said:
alcibiades said:
AlHazin said:
That's the point of the study pal, if we apply its conclusions in the picture you posted, if you're not previously aware that there's a colour called blue and the sky is blue, you won't perceive or "see" the sky as blue, and you won't see the sea as blue cause its colour is a reflection of that of the sky.

I get that. The point I wanted to make is that there are ample of representations in nature of the colour that we today call blue. I didn't find the statement "blue is rare in nature" to be accurate.


Then why don't ancient languages have the color blue

I'm scared now.

It's a very interesting question. I think the nature of language has to do with this, although I'm mostly guessing here, not being a linguist. But my theory is that you generally will only develop words for what you need to talk about. Know the story about how in Greenland, there are 50 different words for (different types of) snow?

In danish, we have perhaps two or three words for types of snow. To a person from Greenland, it may seem puzzling that we don't recognize the other 47 types of snow. But I think another way to say it is that we might recognize them, or at least could if we had the opportunity and need, we just don't find them of sufficient importance to designate them their own word.

I think in terms of colour, if you show this image to most people and ask them what colour they see:

Most people will say "purple". But obviously, there are a wide range of colours here - from aubergine (1) through orchid (4) and lavender (7) to magenta (9). For most of us, that distinction is just not very relevant.

Now of course I do realize there's a crucial difference here between the example I give and the case described in the OP, namely that while most of use might describe those 9 colours as "purple", we would also be very able to see immediately that there are 9 different shades of purple. So in that sense, if the tribe in question does not only not have a word for blue, but also is not able to distinguish between green and blue, it's an entirely different story.

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Geny
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posted January 03, 2017 12:31 PM

Maybe it's just a tribe of colour blind people?
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