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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MMH5.5] Complete Stats/Spells Changelog
Thread: [MMH5.5] Complete Stats/Spells Changelog This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 03, 2017 01:12 AM bonus applied by Galaad on 06 Aug 2017.
Edited by thGryphn at 15:28, 05 Mar 2018.

[MMH5.5] Complete Stats/Spells Changelog

It seemed like quite some people were asking about the stats/spells changes in MMH5.5 since the Heroes 5 TotE (v3.1), so I decided to put them together here.

Mind you, I'm not the guy behind MMH5.5 (that would be magnomagus). I'm just a fan

Below is the full list (pending any corrections) of changes in MMH5.5 (as of RC10 Beta 4) since TotE, but you should definitely read up on the philosophy behind these changes and other (in fact more substantial) features in MMH5.5 in order to have a complete picture of what this great mod is offering...

Finally, please do not hesitate to correct the info provided here.

A note:
Spell System Philosophy: All spells scale properly into late game so that they remain useful and might heroes don't start to overpower magic heroes. All schools are equal, but not equally easy to use. Dark is not overpowered. Light and Dark are much more dependant on spellpower and might heroes will fail with them if they don't have enough spellpower. Might heroes do not even need to necessarily play with magic but can use combat, war machines and shatters, which all scale better. For balanced combat dynamics, spell durations are much shorter (dependant on spellpower) and mass spells have much less ATB boost (10%) while single spells with sorcery have more ATB boost (36%).

Creature Upgrade Philosophy: Each upgrade must be useful but not for the same tactic, each upgrade will synergize with different hero builds and allow different strategies. There are no 'best' upgrades and there are no upgrades that are tactically so identical that it doesn't matter which you will choose. A good player first plans a strategy with his hero buildup and then chooses which creature upgrades fits that strategy best. Creature costs are adjusted to their strength (In TOE low tiers were always underpriced, higher tiers sometimes overpriced but also sometimes severely underpriced, chaotic). Economy plays bigger role in H55 and there are more various ways to make money. Neutrals have less extreme erratic stats to balance adventure map and usability by players.



Abbreviations Used Below
AT: Attack
DE: Defense
SP: Spell Power
KN: Knowledge


MMH5.5 Stats/Spells Changelog - RC10 Beta 4

(changes since RC9 is indicated in red, crossed&red means the change was reverted)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GAMEPLAY DYNAMICS

Damage Calculation
The impact of AT (of attacker) minus DE (of defender) on damage calculation is now 2.5% (was 5%).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


SPELLS

Dark Magic

Blind: Mana cost is now 18 (was 10). Spell duration is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, or 0.5, given the mastery level; the formula was BxSP, where B is 0.15, 0.20, 0.25, or 0.25, given the mastery level.

Confusion: Spell is now level 2 (was 3). Mana cost is 8 (was 9). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP. Spell effectiveness (in % affected creatures) is now B + 0.5xSP, where B is 25, 30, 35, or 40, given the mastery level; percentage was equal to 50, 70, 90, or 100, given the mastery level.

Mass Confusion: Mana cost is 14 (was 18). Spell now has full battlefield effect, same as in original ToTE.

Curse of the Netherworld: Spell is now level 4 (was 5). Mana cost is now 30 (was 15). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 10, 12, 16, or 20, given the mastery level; damage formula was (8 + 2xSP), (12 + 3xSP), (30 + 6xSP), or (144 + 12xSP), given the mastery level.

Decay: Mana cost is now 8 (was 6). Spell duration is now 2 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to 2, 3, 4, or 5, given the mastery level. Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 8, 10, 13, or 16, given the mastery level; it was equal to 32 + 8xSP, regardless of mastery.

Frenzy: Spell can now only be cast on friendly units. Mana cost is 40 (was 15). Spell is now level 5 (was 4). Spell duration is 2 at Expert Level and 1 at lower levels, same as in original ToTE. Affected unit now inflicts (A + BxSP) times the normal damage, where A is -0.6, -0.6, -0.4 or -0.2 and B is 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, or 0.2 given the mastery level; formula was B times the normal damage, where B is 0.01, 0.02, 0.03 or 0.03 given the mastery level.

Puppet Master: Spell is now under Summoning School, renamed to "Hypnotize".

Slow: Mana cost is now 6 (was 4). Spell duration is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 1, 1.5, 1.5, or 1.5, given the mastery level; it was equal to SP. Initiative reduction percentage is now B + 0.25xSP, where B is 10, 15, 17.5, or 20, given the mastery level; percentage was equal to 25, 30, 35, or 40, given the mastery level.

Sorrow: Spell is now level 3 (was 1). Mana cost is now 10 (was 5). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; duration was equal to SP. Morale reduction is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 3, 5, 6, or 7, given the mastery level.

Suffering: Mana cost is now 10 (was 5). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP. Attack reduction is now (4 + 0.15xSP), (4 + 0.20xSP), (5 + 0.25xSP), or (6 + 0.33xSP), given the mastery level; it was equal to 3, 6, 9, or 12, given the mastery level.

Mass Suffering: Mana cost is now corrected to be double the normal Suffering spell cost as 16 (was 14).

Teleportation: Spell is now level 3 (was 4). Mana cost is now 20 (was 8).

Vampirism: Mana cost is now 30 (was 10). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP.  Life drain percentage is now B + 0.5xSP, where B is 20, 30, 40, or 50, given the mastery level; the formula was C + 2xSP, where C is 10, 20, 30, or 40, given the mastery level.

Vulnerability: Mana cost is now 6 (was 5). Defense reduction is now A + 0.1SP, where A is 3, 4, 5, or 6, given the mastery level; was 3, 4, 5, or 6, given the mastery level.

Weakness: Mana cost is now 5 (was 4). Spell duration is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 1, 1.5, 1.5, or 1.5, given the mastery level; duration was equal to SP. Percent reduction to damage range is now (50 + SP), (60 + SP), (75 + SP) or (100), given the mastery level; it was 50, 65, 80 or 100, given the mastery level.


Destructive Magic

Armageddon: Mana cost is now 36 (was 20). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 15, 18, 24, or 30, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 9, 12, 15, or 30, given the mastery level. Extra physical damage for the center 4x4 area is now C x SP, where C is 12, 14, 19, or 24, given the mastery level; damage was D x (1 + SP), where D is 5, 10, 15, or 20, given the mastery level.

Chain Lightning: Spell is now level 3 (was 4). Mana cost is now 18 (was 16). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 20, 24, 32, or 40, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 10, 15, 20, or 25, given the mastery level.

Circle of Winter: Spell is now level 4 (was 3). Mana cost is now 27 (was 9). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 15, 18, 24, or 30, given the mastery level; damage was B + 12xSP, where B is 60, 72, 84, or 96, given the mastery level.

Deep Freeze: Mana cost is now 40 (was 11). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 35, 42, 56, or 70, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 10, 14, 15, or 30, given the mastery level.

Empowered Deep Freeze: Mana cost is now correctly set to be double that of the regular spell.

Eldritch Arrow: Mana cost is now 4, same as in original ToTE. Damage inflicted is now 40 + AxSP, where A is 10, 12, 14, or 16, given the mastery level; damage was B + 8xSP, where B is 48, 56, 64, or 72, given the mastery level.

Fireball: Mana cost is now 24 (was 10). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 12, 14, 19, or 24, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 11, 14, 17, or 20, given the mastery level.

Firewall: This spell is now in Summoning Magic school.

Ice Bolt: Mana cost is now 9 (was 6). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 15, 18, 24, or 30, given the mastery level; damage was B + 12xSP, where B is 60, 72, 84, or 96, given the mastery level.

Implosion: Mana cost is now 25 (was 18). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 30, 33, 44, or 55, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 12, 17, 20, or 40, given the mastery level.

Lightning Bolt: Mana cost is now 6 (was 5). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 12, 14, 19, or 24, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 11, 14, 17, or 20, given the mastery level.

Meteor Shower: Mana cost is now 27 (was 19). Damage is now A x SP, where A is 12, 14, 19, or 24, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 9, 12, 15, or 20, given the mastery level.

Stone Spikes: Mana cost is now 10 (was 5). Damage inflicted is now 20 + A x SP, where A is 10, 12, 14, or 16, given the mastery level; damage was B + 8xSP, where B is 24, 32, 40, or 48, given the mastery level.


Light Magic
Celestial Shield: Damage reduction percentage is now A + 0.5xSP, where A is 50, 50, 60, or 70, given the mastery level; percentage was 25, 25, 25, or 50, given the mastery level. Absorbed damage capacity is now 400 + A x SP, where A is 30, 40, 50, or 60, given the mastery level; capacity was (250 + 50xSP), (500 + 50xSP), (600 + 60xSP), or (600 + 60xSP), given the mastery level.

Deflect Missile: Mana cost is now 8 (was 6). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP. Damage reduction percentage is now B + 0.5xSP, where B is 40, 45, 50, or 55, given the mastery level; percentage was equal to 25, 40, 55, or 70, given the mastery level.

Divine Strength: Mana cost is now 5 (was 4). Spell duration is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 1, 1.5, 1.5, or 1.5, given the mastery level; it was equal to SP. Percent reduction to damage range is now (50 + SP), (60 + SP), (75 + SP) or (100), given the mastery level; it was 50, 65, 80 or 100, given the mastery level.

Divine Vengeance: Spell is now level 5 (was 4). Mana cost is now 18 (was 14). Damage inflicted is now [Ax(10 + 0.1xSP) + SP], where A is 1, 2, 3, or 4, given the mastery level; the formula was Ax(7 + SP).

Endurance: Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP. Defense increase is now (4 + 0.15xSP), (4 + 0.20xSP), (5 + 0.25xSP), or (6 + 0.33xSP), given the mastery level; it was equal to 3, 6, 9, or 12, given the mastery level.

Haste: Mana cost is now 6 (was 4). Spell duration is now A + 0.1xSP, where A is 1, 1.5, 1.5, or 1.5, given the mastery level; it was equal to SP. Initiative increase percentage is now B + 0.25xSP, where B is 10, 15, 20, or 25, given the mastery level; percentage was equal to 10, 20, 30, or 40, given the mastery level.

Magical Immunity: Spell now can be cast on friendlies or foes. Mana cost is now 24 (was 7). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP.

Mass Cleansing: Mana cost is now corrected to be double the normal Cleansing spell cost.

Regeneration: Spell is now level 3 (was 2). Spell duration is now 2 x 0.05xSP, regardless of mastery; it was 1, 2, 3, or 4, given the mastery level. Healed HP (per turn) is now Ax(10 + SP), where A is 4, 5, 6, or 7, given the mastery level; it was equal to 75 + 5xSP, regardless of mastery.

Resurrection: Mana cost is now 25 (was 15). Raised HP is now A x SP, where A is 30, 36, 48 or 60, given the mastery level; it was (20 + 5xSP), (40 + 10xSP), (60 + 15xSP), or (240 + 30xSP), given the mastery level. Resurrected stack’s HP loss percentage is now (A – 0.5xSP), where A is 25, 20, 15, or 10, given the mastery level; this was always 10% regardless of SP or mastery.

Righteous Might: Mana cost is now 10 (was 6). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP. Attack increase is now (4 + 0.15xSP), (4 + 0.20xSP), (5 + 0.25xSP), or (6 + 0.33xSP), given the mastery level; it was equal to 3, 6, 9, or 12, given the mastery level.

Teleportation: Spell is now under Dark Magic School.

Word of Light: Spell is now level 4 (was 5). Mana cost is now 30 (was 15). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 10, 12, 16, or 20, given the mastery level; damage formula was (8 + 2xSP), (12 + 3xSP), (30 + 6xSP), or (144 + 12xSP), given the mastery level.


Summoning Magic

Arcane Armor: Spell is now under Light Magic School, and renamed to "Celestial Shield".

Arcane Crystal: Mana cost is now 10 (was 8). Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to 1 + SP, regardless of mastery. Crystal health is now A x SP, where A is 12, 14, 18 or 24, given the mastery level; it was B x (5+SP), where B is 8, 12, 16 or 20, given the mastery level.

Blade Barrier: Spell duration is now 1 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to SP, regardless of mastery.

Conjure Phoenix: Mana cost is now 36 (was 35). Now Conjured Phoenix HP is 160 + 30xSP + 20xKN, Damage is 10xSP <-> 15xSP, Attack and Defense each is 4 + SP + HeroLevel, Initiative is 12 + (SP+HeroLevel)/10, Speed is 6 + SP/10. Conjured Phoenix is now Elemental. Conjured Phoenix HP was 300 + 30xSP, Damage was 10xSP <-> 15xSP, Attack and Defense each was 10 + 2xHeroLevel, Initiative was 15, Speed was 7.

Earthquake: Mana cost is now 8 (was 7). Damage is now (SP)<->150, (50+SP)<->200, (100+SP)<->300, or (150+SP)<->400, given the mastery level; it was 0<->100, 0<->200, 50<->300, or 100<->400, given the mastery level.

Fire Trap: Mana cost is now 10 (was 8). Number of mines placed is now round(A + 0.1xSP), where A is 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, or 7.5, given the mastery level; number of mines was 2, 4, 6, or 8, given the mastery level. Damage inflicted by each mine is now B x SP, where B is 8, 10, 13, or 16, given the mastery level; damage was 50 + 10xSP, regardless of mastery.

Firewall: Spell is now level 4 (was 3). Mana cost is now 27 (was 16). Spell duration is now 2 + 0.1xSP; it was equal to 3, regardless of SP. Damage is now A x SP, where A is 15, 18, 24, or 30, given the mastery level; damage was B x (1 + SP), where B is 9, 11, 13, or 15, given the mastery level.

Fist of Wrath: Spell is now level 2 (was 1). Mana cost is now 7 (was 5). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 12, 14, 19, or 24, given the mastery level; damage was B x (5 + SP), where B is 4, 6, 8, or 10, given the mastery level.

Hypnotize: Mana cost is now 40 (was 18). Spell duration is now A + 0.025xSP, where A is 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, or 0.6, given the mastery level; the formula was BxSP, where B is 0.15, 0.20, 0.25, or 0.25, given the mastery level. Affected unit’s initiative is now lowered to (C + SP) % of initial value, where C is 30, 40, 50, or 60, given the mastery level; the formula was DxSP %, where D is 1, 3, 3, or 3, given the mastery level.

Phantom Forces: Spell is now level 4 (was 3). Mana cost is now 30 (was 18). Maximum Tier of stack that can be cloned is A x 0.1xSP, where A is 1, 2, 3 or 4, given the mastery level; it was 4, 5, 6 or 7, given mastery level.

Raise Dead: Mana cost is now 16 (was 9). Raised HP is now A x SP, where A is 25, 30, 35 or 40, given the mastery level; it was (120 + 15xSP), (160 + 20xSP), (200 + 25xSP), or (240 + 30xSP), given the mastery level. Raised stack’s HP loss percentage is now (25 – 0.5xSP); this was always 20% regardless of SP or mastery.

Summon Elementals: Spell is now level 3 (was 4). Mana cost is now 14 (was 17). Number of summoned elementals is now (0.75, 1.00, 1.50, or 2.00) x SP, given the mastery level; it was (0.50, 0.75, 1.00, or 2.00) x SP, given the mastery level.

Summon Hive: Mana cost is now 16 (was 15).

Wasp Swarm: Spell is now level 1 (was level 2). Mana cost is now 6 (was 5). Damage inflicted is now A x SP, where A is 8, 10, 13 or 16, given mastery level; damage was B x (5+SP), where B is 2, 4, 6 or 8. Target's ATB reduction is 0.2, 0.3. 0.4 or 0.5, given mastery level; it was 0, 0.2, 0.4 or 0.6, given mastery level.


Runes

Rune of Battle Rage: Now requires 1 Ore + 5 Gems, instead of 1 Ore + 1 Crystal.

Rune of Berserking: This rune is now level 2 (was 1). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 2 Sulfur; was only 1 Ore.

Rune of Charge: This rune is now level 5 (was 1). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 5 Mercury; was only 1 Wood.

Rune of Dragonform: This rune is now level 4 (was 5). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 4 Sulfur; was 1 Wood + 1 Sulfur.

Rune of Elemental Immunity: This rune is now level 2 (was 3). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 2 Crystals; was only 1 Mercury.

Rune of Etherealness: This rune is now level 4 (was 3). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 4 Crystals; was only 1 Crystal.

Rune of Exorcism: This rune is now level 1 (was 2). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 1 Gem; was only 1 Sulfur.

Rune of Magic Control: This rune is now level 1 (was 2). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 1 Mercury; was only 1 Gem.

Rune of Resurrection: This rune is now level 3 (was 4). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 3 Gems; was 1 Ore + 1 Gem.

Rune of Thunderclap: This rune is now level 3 (was 4). Rune cost is now 1 Ore + 3 Mercury; was 1 Wood + 1 Mercury.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


CREATURES


Haven

Tier 1, Base Creature: HP is now 4 (was 3). Cost is now 20 (was 15).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: HP is now 7 (was 6). Cost is now 35 (was 25).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Renamed to Militia (was Brute). Initiative is now 9 (was 8). Speed is now 5 (was 4).Cost is now 35 (was 25).

Tier 2, Base Creature: Cost is now 70 (was 50). #Shots is now 4 (was 10).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Initiative is now 9 (was 8). Exchanged ability Precise Shot for ability Scatter Shot. Cost is now 100 (was 80). #Shots is now 4 (was 12).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 4 (was 5). Defense is now 3 (was 4). Damage is now 4-8 (was 2-8). Exchanged ability No Range Penalty for ability Precise Shot. Cost is now 100 (was 80). #Shots is now 4 (was 10).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 95 (was 85).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Cost is now 150 (was 130).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Initiative is now 9 (was 8). Cost is now 150 (was 130).

Tier 4, Base Creature: Damage range is now 6-10 (was 5-10). Speed is now 6 (was 7).

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: Damage range is now 6-14 (was 5-15).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Speed is now 6 (was 7). Initiative is now 11 (was 10).

Tier 5, Base Creature: Damage range is now 15-19 (was 9-12). #Shots is now 5 (was 7). Gained ability Melee Preference (does half damage using ranged attack).

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 18 (was 16). Damage range is now 15-19 (was 9-12). #Shots is now 5 (was 7). Gained ability Melee Preference (does half damage using ranged attack). Gained ability Bravery. Gained spell Cleansing (Expert). Now casts Haste at Expert level. Mana is now 26 (was 12).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Damage range is now 15-19 (was 9-12). Gained ability Melee Preference (does half damage using ranged attack). #Shots is now 5 (was 7). Lost spell Cleansing. Mastery of spell Righteous Might is now Advanced (was Expert). Gained spells Slow (Expert), Vulnerability (Advanced) and Confusion (Expert). Mana is now 20 (was 15).

Tier 6, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Exchanged ability Immune to Frenzy for ability Immune to Puppet Master. Cost is now 1 gem + 1700 gold (was only 1700 gold).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 20-32 (was 20-35). Defense is now 22 (was 20). Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 110 (was 100). Cost is now 1 gem + 1700 gold (was only 1700 gold). Ability Champion Charge is redefined in a way that it no longer requires having walked 2 tiles; creature always inflicts 50% damage to the creature (friendly or foe) behind the target.

Tier 7, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 230 (was 220). Gold cost is now 3600 (was 3500).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 27 (was 25). Damage is now 30-70 (was 25-75). Exchanged spell Righteous Might for spell Regeneration (Advanced). Divine Vengeance spell mastery is now Advanced (was Basic). Mana is increased to 18 (was 14). Gold cost is now 3600 (was 3500).



Inferno

Tier 1, Base Creature: Defense is now 2 (was 1). Initiative is now 12 (was 13). HP is now 5 (was 4). Weekly growth is now 17 (was 16). Cost is now 35 (was 25).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 4 (was 3). Damage is now 1-4 (was 2-3). Speed is now 6 (was 5). Exchanged ability Mana Stealer for ability Siphon Mana. Weekly growth is now 17 (was 16). Cost is now 50 (was 45).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 2-3 (was 1-4). Speed is now 5 (was 6). Initiative is now 12 (was 13). HP is now 7 (was 6). Exchanged ability Siphon Mana for ability Mana Stealer. Weekly growth is now 17 (was 16). Cost is now 50 (was 45).

Tier 2, Base Creature: Initiative is now 8 (was 7). Cost is now 50 (was 40).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 2 (was 3). Defense is now 3 (was 4). Damage is now 2-3 (was 1-4). HP is now 15 (was 13). Initiative is now 9 (was 8). Cost is now 75 (was 60).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: HP is now 14 (was 13). Cost is now 75 (was 60).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 120 (was 110).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 3 (was 2). Speed is now 7 (was 8). Initiative is now 12 (was 13). HP is now 18 (was 15). Cost is now 180 (was 160). Ability Three-Headed Attack is renamed to Three-Tile Attack.

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 180 (was 160). Abilities Three-Headed Attack and Fire Breath are combined into ability Hellbreath (works the same way as in original ToTE, inflicting 100% damage to the main target and 75% damage to the two adjacent tiles and those behind them).

Tier 4, Base Creature: #Shots is now 5 (was 6).

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 6). Damage is now 7-13 (was 6-13). HP is now 32 (was 30). Gained ability Immune to Frenzy. Creature is now a Caster with spell Cleansing (Expert) and mana pool of 20.

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 7-13 (was 6-13). #Shots is now 4 (was 6).

Tier 5, Base Creature: Initiative is now 14 (was 16). HP is now 60 (was 50). Cost is now 540 (was 550).

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 16 (was 18). Damage is now 10-16 (was 8-16). Exchanged ability Frightful Aura for ability Searing Aura. Cost is now 760 (was 780).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 16 (was 18). Defense is now 18 (was 17). Damage is now 11-16 (was 10-17). Speed is now 7 (was 8). Initiative is now 14 (was 15). HP is now 76 (was 66). Exchanged ability Searing Aura for ability Frightful Aura. Cost is now 760 (was 780).

Tier 6, Base Creature: Fireball mastery is now Advanced (was Basic). Gained spell Weakness (Advanced).Mana is now 24 (was 10). Cost is now 1300 (was 1400).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 25 (was 22). Defense is now 23 (was 21). Speed is now 5 (was 4). HP is now 130 (was 120). Fireball and Meteor Shower mastery is now Advanced (was Basic). Gained spell Weakness (Advanced). Mana is now 48 (was 20). Cost is now 1 sulfur + 1666 gold (was only 1666 gold).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 1 sulfur + 1666 gold (was only 1666 gold).

Tier 7, Base Creature: Resource cost is now 1 mercury (was 1 sulfur).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 30 (was 29). HP is now 216 (was 199). Resource cost is now 2 mercury (was 2 sulfur).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 32 (was 31). HP is now 236 (was 211). Resource cost is now 2 mercury (was 2 sulfur).



Necropolis

Tier 1, Base Creature: Cost is now 25 (was 19).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 8). Gained ability Magic-Proof 25%. Cost is now 40 (was 30).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 1 (was 2). Defense is now 3 (was 6). Cost is now 40 (was 30).

Tier 2, Base Creature: Initiative is now 7 (was 6). Cost is now 50 (was 40).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 3 (was 2). HP is now 16 (was 17). Initiative is now 8 (was 7). Cost is now 75 (was 60).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 2-3 (was 1-3). HP is now 20 (was 19). Cost is now 75 (was 60).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 110 (was 100).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 6 (was 5). Cost is now 160 (was 140).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 160 (was 140).

Tier 4, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 10 (was 9).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 8 (was 9). Defense is now 8 (was 9). Speed is now 7 (was 8).

Tier 5, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 6). Damage is now 15-22 (was 17-20). Gained spell Slow (Expert). Weakness mastery is now Advanced (was Expert). Mana is now 18 (was 16).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Gained spell Slow (Expert), and exchanged spell Suffering for Weakness (Advanced). Mana is now 22 (was 19).

Tier 6, Base Creature: Cost is now 1250 (was 1400).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 25 (was 24). Cost is now 1 mercury + 1600 gold (was 1700 gold only).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 24 (was 23). Cost is now 1 mercury + 1600 gold (was 1700 gold only).

Tier 7, Base Creature: Damage is now 20-35 (was 15-30). Cost is now 1 gem + 1800 gold (was 1 mercury + 1600 gold).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Cost is now 1 gem + 2300 gold (was 2 mercury + 1900 gold).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 22-40 (was 27-36). HP is now 160 (was 150). Cost is now 1 gem + 2300 gold (was 2 mercury + 1900 gold).



Sylvan

Tier 1, Base Creature: Cost is now 50 (was 35). Weekly growth is now 12 (was 10). Ability Spray Attack is renamed to Three-Tile Attack.

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 3 (was 2). Defense is now 2 (was 1). Damage is now 2-3 (was 2-2). Initiative is now 12 (was 15). Cost is now 70 (was 55). Weekly growth is now 12 (was 10). Ability Spray Attack is renamed to Three-Tile Attack. Creature is no longer a Caster. Gained ability Symbiosis.

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 3 (was 1). HP is now 7 (was 6). Initiative is now 13 (was 14). Cost is now 70 (was 55). Weekly growth is now 12 (was 10). Ability Spray Attack is renamed to Three-Tile Attack. Exchanged ability Symbiosis for Syphon Mana.

Tier 2, Base Creature: Cost is now 95 (was 70).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 6 (was 5). Defense is now 4 (was 3). Damage is now 3-6 (was 3-5). Cost is now 150 (was 120).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 5 (was 6). Speed is now 6 (was 7). Cost is now 150 (was 120).

Tier 3, Base Creature: #Shots is now 5 (was 12). Cost is now 140 (was 120).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 16). Cost is now 210 (was 190).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Renamed to Sharpshooter (was Arcane Archer). Damage is now 7-8 (was 8-9). #Shots is now 6 (was 16). Cost is now 210 (was 190).

Tier 4, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 10-14 (was 9-14). Revised spellbook; can now cast Lightning Bolt (advanced), Divine Strength (Advanced), Endurance (Advanced) and Cleansing (Expert). Mana is now 26 (was 15).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 12-15 (was 10-14). Initiative is now 9 (was 10). Lost spell Endurance; can now cast Righteous Might (Advanced), Haste (Expert) and Stone Spikes (Advanced). Mana is now 16 (was 15). Ability Channeling now costs 34 mana (was free in ToTE), meaning it can only be used after being fed with Dryad's Syphon Mana ability.

Tier 5, Base Creature: Cost is now 600 (was 630).

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Cost is now 800 (was 900).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 11-22 (was 9-24). Speed is now 6 (was 7). Initiative is now 11 (was 12). HP is now 70 (was 80). Cost is now 800 (was 900).

Tier 6, Base Creature: Damage is now 10-16 (was 7-17). HP is now 170 (was 175). Speed is now 5 (was 6).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 12-18 (was 10-20). HP is now 170 (was 181). Speed is now 5 (was 6). Initiative is now 8 (was 7). Cost is now 1 gem + 1500 gold (was 1400 gold only).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 12-18 (was 12-20). HP is now 170 (was 175). Cost is now 1 gem + 1500 gold (was 1400 gold only).

Tier 7, Base Creature: Exchanged ability Acid Breath for ability Breath Attack (which was called Fire Breath in TotE). Resource cost is now 1 crystal (was 1 gem).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 29 (was 31). Damage is now 35-60 (was 33-57). Speed is now 8 (was 9). HP is now 210 (was 200). Initiative is now 13 (was 14). Exchanged ability Acid Breath for ability Breath Attack (which was called Fire Breath in TotE). Cost is now 2 crystals + 3500 gold (was 2 gem + 3400 gold).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 27 (was 30). Defense is now 31 (was 26). Damage is now 35-55 (was 30-60). Speed is now 8 (was 9). HP is now 225 (was 200). Initiative is now 12 (was 14). Gained ability Immune to Water. Cost is now 2 crystals + 3500 gold (was 2 gem + 3400 gold).



Dungeon

Tier 1, Base Creature: Cost is now 90 (was 60).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 6 (was 5). Cost is now 150 (was 100).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 4 (was 5). Defense is now 3 (was 4). Cost is now 150 (was 100).

Tier 2, Base Creature: Cost is now 165 (was 125).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 4 (was 3). Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 21 (was 16). Cost is now 230 (was 175).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 230 (was 175).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 170 (was 140).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 3 (was 2). Cost is now 240 (was 200).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 240 (was 200).

Tier 4, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: HP is now 54 (was 60). Cost is now 430 (was 450).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Speed is now 7 (was 8). Cost is now 430 (was 450).

Tier 5, Base Creature: Damage is now 9-14 (was 7-14). Cost is now 520 (was 550). Creature's ability of hitting 6 tiles (not 3 tiles as the original Three-Headed Attack ability implied) is now correctly reflected with its new Half-Circle Attack ability. No change in the ability itself.

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 10-15 (was 9-14). Gained ability Immune to Slow. Cost is now 780 (was 800). Ability Six-Headed Attack is now aptly renamed to Full-Circle Attack.

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 10-13 (was 9-12). Cost is now 780 (was 800).

Tier 6, Base Creature: #Shots is now 5 (was 4). Slow spell mastery is now Expert (was Advanced). Mana is now 14 (was 11).  Gained ability No Melee Penalty. Cost is now 1300 (was 1400).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 22 (was 20). Defense is now 18 (was 20). #Shots is now 5 (was 4). Slow spell mastery is now Expert (was Advanced). Exchanged spell Confusion for spell Cleansing (Expert). Mana is now 26 (was 14). Exchanged ability Whip Strike for ability Swift Attack. Gained ability No Melee Penalty. Now additionally costs 1 crystal.

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Slow spell mastery is now Expert (was Advanced). Confusion spell mastery is now Expert (was None). Exchanged spell Righteous Might for spell Suffering (Advanced). Mana is now 20 (was 14). Exchanged ability Whip Strike for ability Hexing Attack. Gained ability No Enemy Retaliation. Now additionally costs 1 crystal.

Tier 7, Base Creature: Speed is now 8 (was 9). HP is now 210 (was 200).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: No changes.

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 29 (was 30). Speed is now 8 (was 9). HP is now 230 (was 235). Gained ability Immune to Mind Control.



Academy

Tier 1, Base Creature: Initiative is now 8 (was 7). Cost is now 30 (was 22).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 6 (was 7). Cost is now 50 (was 35).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 4 (was 5). Defense is now 2 (was 3). #Shots is now 6 (was 7). Cost is now 50 (was 35).

Tier 2, Base Creature: Cost is now 55 (was 45).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Speed is now 6 (was 7). Initiative is now 11 (was 10). Cost is now 90 (was 70).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 90 (was 70).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 120 (was 100).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Initiative is now 8 (was 7). Cost is now 175 (was 150).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 175 (was 150).

Tier 4, Base Creature: #Shots is now 5 (was 3). Mana is now 20 (was 10).

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 4). Cleansing spell mastery is now Advanced (was Expert). Gained spell Deflect Missile (Advanced). Mana is now 34 (was 25).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: #Shots is now 5 (was 6). Revised spellbook; can now cast Fist of Wrath (Advanced), Slow (Expert), Vulnerability (Advanced) and Confusion (Expert). Mana is now 18 (was 10).

Tier 5, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 15 (was 14). Defense is now 15 (was 14). Magic Proof ability is now 75% (was 50%). Gained ability Immune to Weakness. Cost is now 600 (was 630).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 55 (was 50). Magic Proof ability is now 50% (was 75%). Cost is now 600 (was 630).

Tier 6, Base Creature: No changes.

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 22 (was 20).  Cost is now 1 mercury + 1750 gold (was 1700 gold only).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 24-32 (was 25-35). Speed is now 6 (was 7). HP is now 130 (was 135). Cost is now 1 mercury + 1750 gold (was 1700 gold only). Ability Whirlwind is now renamed to Half-Circle Attack.

Tier 7, Base Creature: Initiative is now 9 (was 10).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 40-75 (was 40-70). HP is now 210 (was 190). Lost ability Shooter. Gold cost is now 3550 (was 3300).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Damage is now 40-65 (was 40-70). Gold cost is now 3550 (was 3300).



Fortress

Tier 1, Base Creature: Cost is now 30 (was 24).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: Cost is now 55 (was 40).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 5 (was 6). HP is now 14 (was 12). Cost is now 55 (was 40).

Tier 2, Base Creature: #Shots is now 4 (was 2). Cost is now 50 (was 45).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: #Shots is now 5 (was 4). Initiative is now 10 (was 9). Cost is now 85 (was 65).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 85 (was 65).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Defense is now 9 (was 10). Cost is now 150 (was 130).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 10 (was 14). Damage is now 4-7 (was 5-6). Lost ability Armored. Cost is now 210 (was 185).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Defense is now 10 (was 12). HP is now 35 (was 30). Speed is now 6 (was 7). Gained ability Armored. Cost is now 210 (was 185).

Tier 4, Base Creature: Damage is now 3-7 (was 2-6).

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 4-8 (was 3-8). Speed is now 6 (was 5).

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: No changes.

Tier 5, Base Creature: #Shots is now 4 (was 5). Gained spell Divine Strength (Basic). Cost is now 480 (was 470).

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 13-18 (was 14-17). Firewall spell mastery is now None (was Advanced). Gained spell Divine Strength (Advanced). Mana is now 35 (was 25). Exchanged ability Immune to Fire for ability Fire-Proof 50%. Cost is now 720 (was 700).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: #Shots is now 4 (was 5). Gained spell Haste (Expert). Exchanged spell Deflect Missile for Endurance (Advanced). Fireball spell mastery is now Basic (was Advanced). Mana is now 30 (was 25). Exchanged ability Immune to Fire for ability Fire-Proof 50%. Cost is now 720 (was 700).

Tier 6, Base Creature: Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 110 (was 100).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 130 (was 120). Exchanged ability Immune to Fire for ability Fire-Proof 50%. Cost is now 1 crystal + 1650 gold (was 1700 gold only).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 1 crystal + 1650 gold (was 1700 gold only).

Tier 7, Base Creature: Resource cost is now 1 sulfur (was 1 crystal).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Cost is now 2 sulfur + 3500 gold (was 2 crystal + 3400 gold).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 32 (was 30). Cost is now 2 sulfur + 3500 gold (was 2 crystal + 3400 gold).



Stronghold

Tier 1, Base Creature: Initiative is now 10 (was 12). HP is now 4 (was 3). Speed is now 5 (was 4). Cost is now 20 (was 10).

Tier 1, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 2 (was 1). Defense is now 1 (was 3). Damage is now 1-2 (was 1-1). Speed is now 5 (was 4). HP is now 6 (was 7). Cost is now 35 (was 20).

Tier 1, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 1 (was 2). Defense is now 2 (was 1). Damage is now 1-1 (was 1-2). Speed is now 4 (was 5). HP is now 7 (was 6). Creature is now a Caster with spell Cleansing (Expert) and 40 mana. Creature no longer has Cowardice and exchanged ability Defile Magic with ability Immune to Mind Control. Cost is now 35 (was 20).

Tier 2, Base Creature: #Shots is now 5 (was 8). Initiative is now 10 (was 11). HP is now 7 (was 6). Cost is now 60 (was 50).

Tier 2, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 5 (was 4). Defense is now 3 (was 2). #Shots is now 6 (was 8). Damage is now 3-5 (was 3-6). Initiative is now 11 (was 10). Cost is now 85 (was 70).

Tier 2, Upgrade 2: #Shots is now 5 (was 6). Cost is now 85 (was 70).

Tier 3, Base Creature: Cost is now 90 (was 80).

Tier 3, Upgrade 1: HP is now 14 (was 12). Cost is now 130 (was 120).

Tier 3, Upgrade 2: Cost is now 130 (was 120).

Tier 4, Base Creature: Renamed to Sun Daughter (was Shaman). Mana is now 12 (was 8).

Tier 4, Upgrade 1: Damage is now 7-9 (was 6-9). Exchanged spell Slow for spell Divine Strength (Advanced). Chain Lightning spell mastery is now Expert (was Basic). Haste spell mastery is now Expert (was Advanced). Gained spell Endurance (Advanced). Mana is now 14 (was 8). Gained ability Purge.

Tier 4, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 9 (was 10). Damage is now 7-9 (was 7-11). Speed is now 4 (was 5). Revised spellbook; can now cast Meteor Shower (Basic), Weakness (Advanced), Slow (Expert) and Vulnerability (Advanced). Mana is now 15 (was 8).

Tier 5, Base Creature: HP is now 36 (was 34).

Tier 5, Upgrade 1: Initiative is now 11 (was 12).

Tier 5, Upgrade 2: Renamed to Warlord (was Chieftain). Attack is now 14 (was 13). Damage is now 10-13 (was 10-12). Speed is now 6 (was 7). Initiative is now 11 (was 12).

Tier 6, Base Creature: Attack is now 21 (was 17). Defense is now 21 (was 17). Damage is now 20-25 (was 15-25). HP is now 100 (was 90). Cost is now 1300 (was 1250).

Tier 6, Upgrade 1: Attack is now 25 (was 21). Defense is now 23 (was 18). HP is now 110 (was 105). Gained ability Immune to Frenzy. Cost is now 1 sulfur + 1750 gold (was 1600 gold only).

Tier 6, Upgrade 2: Attack is now 23 (was 19). Defense is now 23 (was 19). Cost is now 1 sulfur + 1750 gold (was 1600 gold only).

Tier 7, Base Creature: HP is now 200 (was 220).

Tier 7, Upgrade 1: Defense is now 29 (was 27). Damage is now 42-60 (was 45-57). HP is 200 (was 225).

Tier 7, Upgrade 2: HP is now 210 (was 235).



Neutrals

Air Elemental: Defense is now 8 (was 6). Damage is now 6-8 (was 5-7). Initiative is now 16 (was 17). Speed is now 7 (was 8). HP is now 35 (was 30). Cost is now 300 (was 400).

Earth Elemental: Attack is now 6 (was 8). Defense is now 10 (was 11). Initiative is now 9 (was 5). HP is now 50 (was 75). Exchanged ability Magic-Proof 50% for ability Aura of Magic Resistance. Cost is now 300 (was 400).

Water Elemental: Speed is now 6 (was 5). Ice Bolt spell mastery is now None (was Basic). Mana is now 27 (was 12). Cost is now 300 (was 400).

Fire Elemental: Defense is now 6 (was 5). Damage is now 9-13 (was 11-20). Speed is now 5 (was 6). HP is now 35 (was 43). Initiative is now 11 (was 8). #Shots is now 6 (was 50). Cost is now 300 (was 400).

Wolf: Initiative is now 13 (was 14). HP is now 20 (was 25). Weekly growth is now 6 (was 8). Element is now Earth (was Water). Cost is now 200 (was 150).

Mummy: Damage is now 12-20 (was 20-30). Speed is now 4 (was 3). Initiative is now 12 (was 15). Confusion spell mastery is now Advanced (was Expert). Exchanged spell Raise Dead for spell Wasp Swarm (Basic).

Manticore: Damage is now 22-32 (was 30-50). Speed is now 6 (was 5). HP is now 110 (was 120). Cost is now 1 crystal + 1500 (was 1800 gold only).

Black Knight: Renamed from Death Knight in ToTE. HP is now 110 (was 90). Damage is now 19-29 (was 25-35). Exchanged abilities Cursing Attack and Deadly Strike for abilities Frightful Aura and Vorpal Sword. Cost is now 1 mercury + 1650 gold (was 1200 gold only).

Arcane Eagle: New creature!

Phoenix: Initiative is now 18 (was 19). Speed is now 9 (was 10). Creature is now Elemental (also applies to Conjured Phoenix). Cost is now 8000 (was 10000).

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 03, 2017 03:08 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 15:17, 03 Jan 2017.

Reserved

@magno: Sure, I'll put them up there. And yeah, the next step is to make a list of changes in creature abilities.

I'm not sure if I can make a list of hero abilities... the changes are very intertwined with the new classes... but later I might attempt this too

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 03, 2017 04:11 PM

Good job I have a question, why was acid breath changed to fire breath?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted January 03, 2017 04:18 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 16:20, 03 Jan 2017.

All changes to 'breaths' are linguistic and only serve to fix an issue with the Haven tier6 ability that needed an hardcoded ID that was used by another breath ability.
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Mario
Mario


Known Hero
posted January 03, 2017 08:42 PM

@thGryphn:
You forgot about one:
Phoenix cost decreased from 10000 to 8000

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 03, 2017 08:55 PM

Mario said:
@thGryphn:
You forgot about one:
Phoenix cost decreased from 10000 to 8000


That's not implemented yet

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted January 03, 2017 09:09 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 21:35, 03 Jan 2017.

Quote:
I'm not sure if I can make a list of hero abilities... the changes are very intertwined with the new classes... but later I might attempt this too


Don't work too hard, I don't think many will use that.

EDIT: Actually I'm not sure you are talking about skills or specializations.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 03, 2017 09:39 PM

magnomagus said:


EDIT: Actually I'm not sure you are talking about skills or specializations.


I was talking about the hero skills.


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Mario
Mario


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2017 10:00 PM

thGryphn said:
Mario said:
@thGryphn:
You forgot about one:
Phoenix cost decreased from 10000 to 8000


That's not implemented yet


I am sure that it is implemented in RC9. At least, that value is in Creaturepedia

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted January 06, 2017 11:06 PM

Mario said:
thGryphn said:
Mario said:
@thGryphn:
You forgot about one:
Phoenix cost decreased from 10000 to 8000


That's not implemented yet


I am sure that it is implemented in RC9. At least, that value is in Creaturepedia


No, it is not, i forgot to hit Ctrl+S for once
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted January 12, 2017 01:44 PM

Thanks for copy pasting, I have deleted my post.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted January 19, 2017 08:15 PM

@Gryphn - . For Inferno, T6,U1 you say - "Exchanged ability Immune to Frenzy for ability Immune to Puppet Master" which is non existent.

I suspect it is a fake copy pate from Haven T6,U1.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 19, 2017 09:04 PM

dredknight said:
@Gryphn - . For Inferno, T6,U1 you say - "Exchanged ability Immune to Frenzy for ability Immune to Puppet Master" which is non existent.

I suspect it is a fake copy pate from Haven T6,U1.


Yep, good catch, thanks!

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted January 27, 2018 09:27 AM

Gryphn do you consider updating the info till RC10 beta 3?
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted February 26, 2018 09:21 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 21:25, 26 Feb 2018.

Part of me half wonders if some of the changes are needed, e.g. Decay - the Spell Power is what held it together, but making Spell Power determine the duration as well is a considerable nerf - now sure that pays off in HUGE maps that go on for a long time, but for normal games, Decay at expert mastery is much more of a sadface than anything else.


As for buff/debuff spells - 20 Spell Power can manage 3 turns or 3.5 for some; I suppose this is about a full combat length.  What's occurred to me is that said casters that are specializing in high spell power buff/debuff spells are at best cycling through them every 3 turns and thus have an upper limit on their buffs.  I suppose this could be fine, but I lack a more elegant solution considering might's ability to exploit Spell Power in the same way - unless SP could be applied in a way that took Hero class into consideration, that is to say - for a Caster with 20 SP the spell would last 6.5 turns, but for a similar Might hero it would only last 3.5 turns (halved spell power or whatever).

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 26, 2018 10:29 PM

dredknight said:
Gryphn do you consider updating the info till RC10 beta 3?


I had missed this, sorry... and yeah, the OP really needs updating but I don't have time for that atm...

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2018 02:41 PM

Infinite Buff/Debuff Durations

I thought about it more, and I think I can lay out more specifically what I was getting at in my previous post.


I'm starting to question whether the scales are aligned properly between Destructive Magic and Light/Dark Magic (Summoning is its own category, but I'd put it closer to Destructive Magic for the sake of this discussion).  I'll explain what I mean.

There is a striking distinction between the buff/debuff spells and damage spells, and when I say that, I don't mean the obvious - that some do damage and some don't.  Let me make a quick but non-exhaustive list of spells I'm talking about so we're on the same page.

When I say damage spells, I mean all Destructive Magic, but we can also include Curse of the Netherworld, Decay, Word of Light, Divine Vengeance, but also Frenzy and Hypnotize, for reasons I will explain in a moment.

By buffs/debuffs, I'm specifically looking at Bless, Haste, Endurance, Righteous Might, Deflect Missile, Curse, Slow, Vulnerability, Confusion, Suffering, and Sorrow.  There are other buffs/debuffs obviously, but I've singled these ones out for a specific reason.

What I find from my own play but mainly from just doing mathematics is that the buff/debuff spells only make sense to use under very specific conditions.  I'll focus on debuffs - if I use "Slow" for example and my opponent's initiative is reduced by 40%, then I can more or less calculate that - ignoring retaliations - that group's damage output has been reduced by a total of 40%.  Straight-forward enough.  Likewise, Suffering might reduce attack by say, 10 - this one is harder to calculate.  I believe the factor for attack is 2.5% each, but we need to ask whether the creature was already ahead in attack over some imaginary creature's defence, or behind.  In fact, in order for Suffering to have the same relative effect as slow, the unit would already need to be behind in defence badly enough to be doing 60% damage in the first place - 10 less attack would drop this to 35%, which is roughly a 40% drop.  Anything above this gets gradually weaker and weaker (this makes me wonder whether Suffering should be a percentage attack drop instead of a flat value).  Anyways, you get my point - while it doesn't *entirely* work this way, you can factor out the relative strength of a spell by looking at how much it has reduced an opponent's damage performance, or at least this is one way of looking at it.

Destructive spells manage the situation in a different way - by simply killing off the troops.  But, rather than looking at Destructive in terms of frags, we could change our lens a little and look at these spells in terms of a debuff.  If I kill 40% of the units in a group, then that group is doing 40% less damage - same effect as Slow, as it were.  EXCEPT - in the case of Destructive Magic, there are additional benefits.

1.  The units are dead instead of debuffed, and thus don't need to be killed a second time (there has been a hit point drop over and above the damage loss that Slow had offered).

2.  More importantly - the effect is permanent.  Slow lasts for a short time, and then the unit recovers; units killed by Destructive spells don't "recover" after 3.5 turns.


This makes for an interesting combat dynamic that works along the following lines.

1.  If you're facing an opponent and have a clearly inferior army, Destructive is best.

Reason:  Pretty straight-forward - if you're going to lose anyways, kill as many things as you can before you're forced to run.

2.  If you're facing an opponent and have a clearly superior army, Destructive is best.

Reason:  Again, pretty straight-forward - there's not much point in debuffs when either your army or spells can crush your opponent's forces quickly and simply eliminate groups rather than slowing down something that is no threat to you (the AI does this notoriously often...).

3.  If you're facing an opponent and you both have "small" armies, Destructive is best.

Reason:  Treating Destructive as a "debuff," I could either slow an opponent's Arch Devils, or have a spell kill them outright.  Which to pick?  The spell that kills them, of course - destroying a group is a debuff of 100% as opposed to any other spell's 40%, or 10%, or whatever %.

4.  If you're facing an opponent and you both have "large" armies, buffs/debuffs are best.

Now, the thing here is that we need to define what "large" means.  The matter is that it eludes definition in some sense beyond, "An army is large when its size is disproportionate to a Hero's spell power."  Or rather - the effect of buffs/debuffs scales negatively against Destructive Magic choices as spell power increases, because Destructive Magic always has the option of doing enough damage to keep up with buffs/debuffs if the army isn't too large AND its effects are permanent.

The practical application of these observations seems to lend itself to favouring buffs/debuffs in the following situations.

A.  Massive neutral stacks.  By massive, I mean one basically needs to be playing one of the largest map types and encountering hostile forces in the thousands - it's the point where Destructive Magic simply cannot kill things fast enough and you therefore need to rely on your army.

B.  A "final battle" situation - two unscathed Heroes meet each other for the first time and have fully intact armies.  The numbers here are large enough that it erodes the power of Destructive Magic.


Let me be clear in case it's not obvious at this point - I'm not saying that Destructive Magic is overpowered.  I *am* saying that there is something awkward about the design situation, though.  Some of it is ultimately unavoidable - what I'm doing is laying the situation out on the table so it's easy to see.  (To contrast with A and B above, one might find that after a big battle if the game was still going on, that all combat seems to slide towards killing units as quickly as possible rather than debuffing them.  I don't necessarily pull out a calculator to figure out what is the best way to go - most of it is intuitive and obvious.)  Thus far I've only spoken about how a single debuff might pair off against a damage spell in terms of absolute effect.  The two clinchers I think would be Mass-effect spells and duration.

Anyways, the observation comes down to:  how effective buffs/debuffs actually are depends on the kind of map you're playing.  If it's a relatively standard Heroes game of sorts (like the "Warlords" map, or a 2vs2 or a 1vs1), the game won't be elongated and will inevitably gravitate towards Destructive Magic's becoming more useful/powerful.  On Single-Player style maps, or massively huge maps, or maps that take 8 months and that sort to complete, Destructive Magic will become less useful.



-------------------------------------------------------------



Having said all of the above, I'm making this a NEW section because this is where my opinion starts and where my observations end, as it were.

I don't know about anyone else, but my first thought is that if spells are to be balanced, the right thing to balance them for is standard multiplayer in the kind of atmosphere that would in normal circumstances be considered competitive.  I think this safely eliminates the biggest maps or the longest games.

The point is that - depending on the army size (which relates to the kind of game you're playing most of the time) - Destructive Magic spells are capable meeting up with the power of even a Mass spell and keeping up with it.  The variables are pretty wide.  Furthermore, I had mentioned as well that I put spells like Frenzy and Puppet Master in a special category - these make the most sense to me to treat as Destructive Magic spells (alongside Divine Vengeance), where their power is determined by army size instead of the Hero's spell power - so these lean towards use in big armies.

My opinions and conclusions about these things look like the following.

1.  First - I'm not convinced that ignoring the effect of Sorcery on Mass spells is actually necessary.  I realize that this creates a distinction between using Mass spells and individually picking out targets with a non-Mass spell that matters enough to use when you're, say, low on spell points, but placed in a situation with limited towns and armies (with L7 units that don't get past the number of 20 before the game ends), those Mass spells will probably need the extra casting power in order to be able to keep up with damage spells.  Possibly not, but I think my point in 2. is more important.

2.  As I mentioned before - Destructive Magic has an important aspect to it that buffs/debuffs do not - and that is the matter of permanence.  The only spell of this ilk in that group is Vulnerability, and we can see the usefulness of that spell because of that.  I'm inclined to think there's something to this - when deciding to use a buff/debuff or use a damage spell, I not only need to calculate whether the damage spell will pull off the same or better effect than the buff/debuff, but I *also* need to factor in whether that buff/debuff will cease to exist within a certain time frame and thereby how much opportunity cost is paid by using one spell and not another because of the time factor.  I believe this is a level of complication in the calculation that is both unnecessary but also gives additional favor to Destructive Magic that it doesn't need - its bonuses are fairly solid already.

My suggestion is - believe it or not - to take the Heroes 4 (yes, four) route in terms of buff/debuff spells - infinite duration, for the majority of them.  They don't necessarily need to be like Vulnerability where you can stack the effects - rather, a spell like Suffering, regardless of Spell Power or Mastery, always has a duration of 99 unless dispelled.  But like Destructive Magic spells - the *impact* of said buff/debuff would be determined entirely by spell power.  This means that a Magic Hero would still definitively have more impact than a Might hero when using such spells, and the variance of effect would be very wide - but once cast, it's there and it's sticking.  It would also make the new modified Cleansing more useful - I personally find it a waste of mana; I need to weigh my options and decide whether it is worth dispelling something that will disappear in three turns anyways.  With infinite duration - Cleansing can be appropriately expensive, have some random effects as to whether things are dispelled, but be completely and totally worth it every time because you KNOW those spells aren't coming off any other way.  This also evades the whole "cycling three spells" thing over and over which is a lost opportunity cost from damage spells after not very long.  I think this would make for a much more effective means of executing buffs/debuffs.

Anyways, infinite duration wouldn't affect spells like Frenzy and Puppet Master, or even Blind - the effects here are pretty obvious for why you'd want it to be temporary, and the former two are basically like a calculated Destructive Magic spell in the form of a unit.  It just makes just as much sense that Phoenixes, Elementals, and Barriers and Crystals actually stick around for the whole combat and need to be shot down to be rid of them - they're otherwise just an opportunity cost against something else.

Then you have spells in the "weird" category like Vampirism - I'm ambivalent about these, but I think the matter comes to a head with a spell like Regeneration because it's somewhat lame to be dancing around the battlefield to restore lost troops by re-casting a spell that clearly wasn't designed for that purpose (I would rather depart from spells that resurrect units entirely and replace them with something completely different: what you lose is gone, forever, it de-complicates some of that messiness from the game; WHEREAS things like the Ankh that have a single-shot effect after combat I have no problem with).



Anyways, those are my thoughts.  To recap...

-Destructive Magic becomes more powerful relative to buff/debuff spells as spell power increases; itself relative to army size
-Situations other than a very large battle always favour Destructive Magic (again, not a bad thing - this is just the way the world works)
-My suggestion for streamlining some of the bias is simply to eliminate the duration limit on most buff/debuff spells -> let them have infinite duration and let their effects be highly determined by spell power


I think this would make for some most interesting battles, but more importantly, a more well-rounded spell game.


-Gidoza

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uiuin
uiuin

Tavern Dweller
posted March 03, 2018 02:46 PM

Very nice

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 03, 2018 08:17 PM

uiuin said:
Very nice


Thanks, I'm working on updating this to the current as of today version (RC10 Beta 4), so check back later for up to date info. Blame magnomagus for version naming


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 05, 2018 12:12 AM

Hey mods
Could someone make this a project so I can edit the first post?

Thanks!

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