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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: World Topics 2017
Thread: World Topics 2017 This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 12, 2017 06:12 PM
Edited by markkur at 18:12, 12 Feb 2017.

World Topics 2017

Thought I'd create a spot to discuss Global Matters, where my own country isn't also the prime player.


Bashar al-Assad Yahoo News Interview (full version) | February 9th, 2017
link

My 2-cents? I think this man IS someone to sit down with and negotiate. If not, he deserves far more than an Oscar because he would have to be the best actor that ever walked the Earth.

i.e. His answers surrounding the existing terrorism in the Middle-East and the West, ring concise and true to me.

However, he and Putin may be nothing more than smooth-talkers but "at this time" I don't think so. But even if I am not entirely correct, it could also be, that even smoothies can truly want to do something good for a change and end the Syrian nightmare.

Maybe then the world can do something about all the other nightmares happening now...instead of contributing one way or another to all.
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"Poetry is a felt change of consciousness"

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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 13, 2017 08:13 PM

An interactive view of National debt across the planet. Select different "data" drops to get a picture of Debt and how it heavily burdens "The West" today and see what Nations actually "protect their own interests today.

http://jubileedebt.org.uk/countries
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted February 13, 2017 10:11 PM

Assad and Putin are good rhetoricians and unlike many of the Western politicians, they don't use textbook cliches and slogans when they give a speech or answer questions but rather approach the situation in a "Why don't you think about it for a second and see if you won't agree with me" manner. That makes it more tempting to perceive them as more trustworthy, especially if you are already sick of the hollow and overly-exploited political talking of your domestic politicians (especially if they completely substitute the substance of the talk with "values", "democracy", "freedom" and their likes, repeated in every second sentence). However, they are statesmen above all and as such, being honest is the least of their concerns, unlike trying to appear honest. There has been a lot of **** thrown on the Syrian government since the beginning of the war and it is still waist-deep in it but it's certainly not composed of saints and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't give a damn about "human rights abuse" or whatever. I know I wouldn't if I was in their shoes, in a situation where multiple foreign powers try to wreak havoc on my territory with the help of big groups of well-organized cutthroats who raze, kill and plunder in my cities and advertise themselves via picturesque atrocities, generously broadcasted by the Western media like some evening show material.

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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 14, 2017 06:26 AM

I agree with you Zeno. Do you see some of the same Gov.-problems your direction as I observe in my beloved USA?

Honestly, I beginning to think, other than Communist governments, or whatever they actually are, that all governments around the world, look a hell of a lot alike and are doing a lot of the same to their people.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 17, 2017 07:02 PM

Why Free Speech Is All That Matters
link

I think the title of Molyneux's subject, would have been more pinpoint with; Free-Speech is the cornerstone of Civilization.

Agree or disagree?

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JollyJoker
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posted February 17, 2017 08:46 PM

I'm not going to listen to half an hour of S.M. (pun intended), but I can tell you that I disagree. In fact, I think that jurisdiction and laws are the cornerstone of civilization - we can afford free speech only because there is a jurisdiction that allows to take legal action against abuse of free speech, aka LYING.
looking at "Free Speech" is actually misleading, because the important thing with the "speech part" is, how many people you actually reach. Today, you can reach the whole world, and as we currently see, fact-checking becomes important.

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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 17, 2017 09:29 PM

JollyJoker said:
 In fact, I think that jurisdiction and laws are the cornerstone of civilization

Laws did not arise from a muted-populace. We have to walk before we can run...with anything.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted February 17, 2017 09:41 PM

Look, markkur, no one can ever forbid free speech - it can only be punished. For free speech to be punished you needs a punisher - power. Still, no punishment can't stop crime, and if free speech (certain things to say) is a punishable crime, it still can't stop free speech. Not being silenced is a personal (and not always easy choice).

The whole purpose of raising your voice is getting a law, a jurisdiction, rights. The opposite of despotism.

Laws, didn't arise from the populace We know of the code of Hammurabi which is nearly 3800 years old. Think about that. It's a long time. A king laying down the body of the law in nearly 300 laws, already containing the principle innocent until proven guilty.

So, again - no.

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frostysh
frostysh


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WHY?
posted February 17, 2017 09:51 PM

Zenofex -

No, rhetoric of mr Putin is weak compared to the rhetoric of president Obama, for an example. But day-by-day, this rhetoric becoming more powerful...
As you may know mr Zenofex, if you listen to mr Putin rhetoric, mr Putin is a fan of Soviet Union, and more, his rhetoric describing the actual events, same as western politics in this case. But in the case of mr Putin - those events are directed to the "resurrection" of SU.
Also, if you may know a history of SU, you are realizing how bloody it was. So you can imagine, how bloody it may be in the future...


Ahh, do not listen frostysh pessimist , beside I think you just have a lack of understanding of the Russia language .
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 17, 2017 10:23 PM

JollyJoker said:
Look, markkur, no one can ever forbid free speech - it can only be punished. For free speech to be punished you needs a punisher - power.


That is stating the obvious JJ but regardless, there is a serious difference between people huddled in small groups and saying anything about any topic - versus being able to freely speak in the public-square without reprisals in some form, because such and such speech was not allowed for whatever reason. You already know this but you seem to think it cannot happen again? People in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia could indeed freely speak in privacy, but that did NOT change the nation and could not protect the masses because those that dared to speak Truth were too often killed, when their words did not fit the Totalitarian-regime that had all the power. What I am arguing against was so entrenched in Germany that your entire nation damned near had to be entirely destroyed to end the madness behind "approved pubic speech dictated by a Militarized-Government holding absolute power.

You keep harping about LAW but when LAWs means nothing to those in Power? as has been proven for decades now...free-speech generally goes next and it appears it is under-fire now.  


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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 17, 2017 10:25 PM
Edited by artu at 22:27, 17 Feb 2017.

@JJ and Markkur

You can have different types of civilizations without free speech but things always have the chance to turn out pretty horrid without it much faster. A sophisticated enough society that protects and guarantees free speech would not be able to develop if there were no laws in the first place, but laws can get pretty oppressive without free speech. For most of our past, oppression was the norm, people didnt expect anything better so "lawful" was good enough for them, today free speech seems to be valued more, yet, in times of crisis and catastrophy, majority of people still have the tendency to give up freedom (of speech) for the sake of safety.

Anyway, I usually dislike S.M. videos but there is nothing wrong with this one, he doesnt suggest free speech started civilization, he suggests it is the key element when it comes to improving it. I completely agree with that and I dont support censorship in the name of political correctness, unless there is a direct invitation of violence to some minority group etc..
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted February 17, 2017 11:09 PM

@ markkur
Without free speech Hitler would never have risen to power.

Look, guys, I really like free speech.
But on the other hand free speech is A GIFT. It's granted by the powers that are. It's GRANTED. It feels better when there is NO free speech, but you STILL say it.

Anyway, I'm a parent, and since I believe in free speech (I do), my daughter had the right of free speech. No respecting parents, scolding parents allowed.
Worked well. Although - would have worked the other way round either. Personally, I think, light penalties work better. They make people more thoughtful. It's like an insurance deductable.
There should be things not a matter of course, and freedom of speech is one of it, because, well, imagine it: You say something I don't like. I hit you. Now we have a problem. You offended me, I hit you. Why should you be allowed to offend ne, but I forbidden to hit you because of it?

So if you think about it - free speech reduces to "being allowed to critisize the powers that are", but also being liable to being sued if you just claim stuff.

This needs kind of an independent and working jurisdiction.


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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted February 18, 2017 04:18 AM

JollyJoker said:
This needs kind of an independent and working jurisdiction.

Naturally but then the critical question arises...who decides?

That's where we part ways JJ...I "think" you are too trusting in the quality of governments ruling most major nations today. That might be aok in Germany, though I doubt it, but here? No damn way and I'm not blindly trusting our corrupt powers to do the right thing. Nothing is more prevelaent here than white-collar crime and yet hardly anyone goes to jail, even when billions are involved. However, I would like to be surprised about that. Maybe Trump will indeed make America great again.<LOL>

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JollyJoker
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posted February 18, 2017 09:44 AM

We have no free speech in this forum here, right?

Is that a bad thing?

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 18, 2017 09:56 AM

Flawed analogy, this area is private. We are all free to start our own blogs though. What if Val had the power to prevent you from doing that?
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frostysh
frostysh


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WHY?
posted February 18, 2017 10:57 AM

markkur -
markkur said:
...  People in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia could indeed freely speak in privacy ...
So young, so naive.

This is a perfect example how difficult for a peoples from the rich and lot of freedoms countries understand life in the other conditions.

P.S. Do not accept that as an insult. Actually this was a somekind compliment  
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted February 18, 2017 11:59 AM

artu said:
Flawed analogy, this area is private. We are all free to start our own blogs though. What if Val had the power to prevent you from doing that?
HAS anyone the power to prevent you from blogging?

Look, times have changed. I know, for you this may actually be a serious issue for you, Turkey and all, but in our time free speech isn't that much of an issue obviously, because if there isn't, it's a big elephant on the ice, and with the internet nowadays everyone can say anything they ever wanted to say.
And THAT is much more of a problem now. EVERYONE is saying something, and it's difficult to assert fact and truth. In this situation free speech simply loses value because there isn't THE TRUTH anymore.

If it IS INDEED imnportant - like it was a couple of times in newer times - there ARE enough how do speak up, but that doesn't mean a lot because where there is no free speech, even if you speak that out, you don't have any power - like now in Turkey. Or China.

On the other hand, where you have more or less free speech, it becomes more and more meaningless, because it's not only a question of being able to say something, it's also a question of what is actually said.

Let's say it this way: if you live in a country without free speech, you know that there is a problem, and you know WHAT is the problem. If you live in a country WITH free speech, there are a million problems and none, because everyone says something, and everyone says something else.
And in the end we have so many countries with free speech, but I at least wouldn't say that everything is peachy in these countries.

Words are a weapon and can be quite dangerous. That is true in every direction. Which means, responsible use of that weapon is necessary.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted February 18, 2017 12:52 PM

Quote:
HAS anyone the power to prevent you from blogging?
In fact yes. And it's quite simple. Technically even I can if I wanted to.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 18, 2017 02:08 PM

Zenofex said:
Quote:
HAS anyone the power to prevent you from blogging?
In fact yes. And it's quite simple. Technically even I can if I wanted to.

Beat me to it. Yes. And if there is censorship in the country you live in, the government can track down your IP address, you can even go to prison for blogging. Of course, you can play cat and mouse using some stealth technology but that's beside the point.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted February 18, 2017 02:42 PM

It's not. It proves the point that if you have no free speech, your problem is NOT that you have no free speech.

And on the other hand, if you HAVE free speech, that doesn't mean you don't have any problems.

And while in the past free speech may have been a really important thing and indicator, things are changing, going away from speaking FREELY to speaking TRULY.

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree here. I don't see any practical, factual points you'd make - it's more like an emotional thing.

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