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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Let's make our OWN HOMM game! "Heroes Infinity"
Thread: Let's make our OWN HOMM game! "Heroes Infinity" This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted March 04, 2017 10:39 AM

Lord_Immortal said:
Well yes, there is much to improveme in the lineups. I just came with those ideas very quickly and neither I am satisfied 100% with how they are right now.

I do suppose we could discuss this matter more in depth. I for one probably would have a aesir being neutral.

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Lord_Immortal
Lord_Immortal


Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2017 10:53 AM

Well, as I stated, all factions are "Neutral". There are no Good or Evil factions. They're just different in nature. We might name them by Alignments (like in H4).

Midgard = Life
Alfheim/Vanaheim/Asgard/ = Hope
Jotunheim = Might
Svartalfheim = Despair
Muspelheim = Chaos
Nifelheim  = Order
Nidavellir = Technology&Magic
Helheim = Death

In a certain sense, Life would be opposite to Death, Hope to Despair, Chaos to Order and raw, primitive Might to the Technology&magic combination.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted March 04, 2017 03:58 PM

what I meant that I would prefer the aesir, seeing as they are basicly the gods, shouldn't directly be aligned with any faction. Also, I would make Alfheim a nature faction.

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Lord_Immortal
Lord_Immortal


Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2017 06:03 PM

Hmm... good idea. The Aesir/Vanir might remain neutral as gods.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted March 04, 2017 07:08 PM

I shall work on my suggestions for some lineups in the future.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 05, 2017 12:07 PM
Edited by MattII at 19:19, 05 Mar 2017.

NimoStar said:
HEROES
For example, we might use a H5-like skillwheel, but without dependencies (those limit the progression and variance of hero builds), maybe rather with "enchancement" of some skills by others. And with skill levels unlike H5 normal progression (for example, like those of H3 - different instance levels of the same skill, increasing the same effect). Hero specialties are better than generic heroes, but all should be carefully balanced (all Heroes should be on the same level, instead of being 2 or 3 "good" heroes for faction). No blood/tears "reputation" system, other system may be put in place.
That works for me. I might add though, I'd like to see more skills (not as many as in H3, but at least rather more than were in H5), but with fewer perks per skills, say, only 5 each (arranged 2-2-1).

Quote:
TOWNS
Towns should be 7-creature total max. Of people want to call core, elite, and champion, or the simple "T1, T2, T3, T4..." is merely aesthetic.
Mythological towns seem to be more popular and varied (Elf, dwarf, ent, etc.) than "racial" towns (all creatures in a single town are some variation of Elf, for example)
Towns could be varied by having two alternate creatures in each slot, like H4 which was an idea implemented or half-implemented in many sucessors. Alternate upgrades should be possible too, but I would not think it is very strategic to allow having both at a time and being able to switch creature upgraded in a different way with a single click - that makes it a non-decision, and it also destroys immersion. IN any case, alternate upgrades and alternate creatures may be planned but are better relegated to later versions. Initial versions should be as simple as possible, while putting in place "Hooks" in the code to easily add more features later (IE, make the process of game design as open and modular as possible).
I'd say 4 tiers, and eleven creatures total (3-3-3-2), but only seven selectable (2-2-2-1). Oh, and single upgrades. As to the whole 'elemental-vs-racial' debate, as long as every humanoid race in the lineup has at least a couple of heroes as well, I'm fine.

However, while I'm not averse to a town or two with some Norse influence, I'm gonna say, keep it at that, basing the entire game based around a single mythology is not to my liking.

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ANcientDRuids
ANcientDRuids


Known Hero
BEware THe DRuids
posted March 05, 2017 02:31 PM
Edited by ANcientDRuids at 17:15, 05 Mar 2017.

LizardWarrior said:
Undertaking such a gargantuan project should come with a massive dose of realism, first you need the metal, then the coat of paint.


This. If you want to conceptualize the lore and factions (I know myself that it's the most interesting part of developing anything) start with 3, max. 4 factions, with 5, max. 6 units. Start with the most core ones - Men, Gods/Elves and Undeads (and maybe Ice Giants). Make each faction original, unique and interesting. Make a strong foundation and if it's good, build on that.

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted March 05, 2017 11:00 PM

I've learned it can be considered rude to give someone a piece of advice, unless they agree to receive it, so I'll try to avoid that and instead share some of my own experiences from other team projects and the like. I'll like post some references to some of the community members who've posted in this tread, and I just want top point out, I don't mean to point fingers or attempt to cause guilty conscience, it's merely meant as examples.

Someone suggested raising money to pay programmers or designers, but in my optic that would only create an unbalance between the paid 'members' and the volunteers. Not sure that's wise.

I agree with some of, what I believe to be the long time community members, that it would likely be the best approach to either present some work or at least a somewhat detailed plan, in the hope to engage other member in the project. I believe many would support the project, but at the same time, many have learned from bitter experience, that many of these projects slowly whither down and never gets completed. In relation to other treads and projects I've come to believe that they're in fact not pessimistic, but rather realistic. So be realistic yourself. But ultimately I think someone needs to be the one, who picks up the banner and take the lead of planning such a project and putting together a team. Words alone, won't get us any further.

Management: While some don't seem to think it's necessary to have an 'organization' I very much believe it is, for various reasons. In the same time, although NimoStar don't think he has the ability to lead a team due to lack of programming skills etc. I would still suggest you consider taking charge of the team. Decide whether you want this to be a mod or to create a new game. If the latter, then decide which parts should follow YOUR vision and which parts can be open for discussion, either within the team or within the community. This is very much important, as you could end up with a team of say 15 members with 15 different opinions about in which direction certain parts of the game should go. Some want 7 tiers others only 4. You could risk having team member(s) threaten to leave if there are parts he/she disagrees to. This could potentially doom the project or cause you sit backs. So you need someone to take charge or decide early on, how you'll be deciding each aspect of the game (your vision, democratic decisions, community polls or..) and make sure each team member knows and accepts this before joining the team.
Try to make sure every team member have the same expectations towards the project. An example from a while back, was a group fans trying to do a collaborative project, but it turned out to be considered a competition by the project leader and that doomed the project rather quickly. The project also lacked understanding and accept for different opinions/approaches, so it's important to either have very clear lines or someone to make the final decision and make ppl. accept this.

As others pointed out, there are already several tread containing ideas of creating a new heroes game within the community, as well a faction lineups. Perhaps some of these could be useful either for inspiration or to look for ppl. willing to help you.
You might also find that some team member don't participate as much as you've hoped for. And as in real life, some have more initiative than others, so don't expect an equal workload from each member.

Accept drop outs: You're bound to encounter conflicts within the team causing members to leave the team, team members loosing interest over time or due to lack of tasks, having RL issues causing them to be inactive for a period, their pc crashes or whatever. Again this could cause sit backs or prolong the process. A bitter team member could refuse to share any recent process they've made. You may have to accept some drop-out while others can be important contributes, vital to your team. Of course having several ppl. able to doing similar tasks, will make you less vulnerable.

Consider what can be done to keep up process. Even if you have bi-weekly status sum-ups there's always someone who didn't complete their task as planned. Will another member be stuck due to lack of process from someone else? This is also the case when you reach a state where you'll be in need of testers. Even if ppl. volunteer to test, it's likely you'll be delaying your process due to lack of feedback, despite having promised to give you feedback by a given time. I've experienced this numerous times, in various projects. Let's face it, testing and balancing sucks. It's not the most interesting part of the project having to test the things over and over again. Let your testers know what you expect from them, and what they got to offer you. You may have to accept them only being willing to test a part e.g. no more than 3 times.

I hope you decide to take this further, but do take into consideration some of the many obstacles you can and will encounter and plan ahead what you can do avoid or overcome them. This will help keep such a project alive.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 11, 2017 09:42 PM

Quote:
This. If you want to conceptualize the lore and factions...


In gameplay, I would actually start with testing two or just one faction, and make a core engine small enpugh that factions aren't hardcoded within it (this is a major problem with H3 and 4, don't know about the rest). Factions can then be indefinitely extendable.

I would say I don't think the "all-nordic lore" is fitting for flavor though, as it puts severe constraits on creatures and factions, for what is alreadya  difficult process. All those models and consistent nordic style and feel would be very hard to get, which is why I would go for more generic tropes...

Quote:
If the latter, then decide which parts should follow YOUR vision and which parts can be open for discussion, either within the team or within the community. This is very much important, as you could end up with a team of say 15 members with 15 different opinions about in which direction certain parts of the game should go. Some want 7 tiers others only 4. You could risk having team member(s) threaten to leave if there are parts he/she disagrees to.


I think it's OK as these are just ideas, members have to know ideas are always welcome as they help fill potential voids in development.

At the same time, as you both noticed, a game can't either be overfeatured or have conflicting game design ideas. This would lead to massive disaster.

So, as I would take, all ideas are welcome, but (and this is a good but) there should be a game designer (or board) that decides which come in and which have to stay out or be delayed... and most sadly will not make it.

Community polls are a very good way to decide democratically some keys aspects of the game which are contentious. Designer oversight is fine for programming and engine related things which may affect performance and bugs, but others are purely flavor and taste... I believe community polls are key for this. As it would rather be hard to make a commercial-level game, it means we must have a game which suits the tastes of the community, and not of a single designer (IMO the main problem with erwinland, aka ashan :v and its erwin-lore based gameplay and factions... other than the massive bugs, that is)

__________________

I take your thoughtful advice, Karmakeld. For the moment as the programmer post isn't filled, we don't have hopes of starting the project in earnest just yet. My brother is studying programming and he is also an Heroes fan, but that will take years of his development of skills until we can make something good.
So until we get an interested programmer or a ready-built engine with all of the features, we are in the conceptual phase. And the energy I will put in the project won't be much high until and if we get such programmer - I could "look for them", but I don't want to force things. They have to come on their own because this position can't be done out of pressure or taken lightly. Code has to be mantained, has structure, has language. If one leaves another can't easily take over. Maybe they will have to start over because of not understanding the other language/code. Or maybe the first programmer goes mad and sabotages the project. That would not be nice, but it can happen. So I wait for a really interested, stable person for the job... it doesn't have to be quick, it just haves to be realiable. That is very, very important.

___________________________________________

The other project, that of Heroes RTS, is one I can however do meanwhile even on the technical scale. It has at least two engines on my grasp to be done: RA2 and OpenRA; and it can use the very same di-isometric extractable H4 assets. The first I dominate but is kind of obsolete, the latter is new and uses OpenGL but I don't code on it just yet. So my choices are easy and quick and dirty Heroes RTS (which can be alpha in less than a month), or do a clean-code one with reliable code, online capabilities, etc. but one that requires much more work and takes much more time to release (perhaps half a year, counting I have other things to do in real life)... or maybe I do none, since Heroes community seems to hate RTS. Hey, maybe I can do a poll :v
____________
CLICK on the image to discover H4 Greatest Mod!

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted March 12, 2017 12:23 PM

True you'd most likely get a much better result if you're open to ideas and suggestions both within your team and from the community, but my point was exactly as you stated yourself, you need someone in charge of the various parts to make a final decision. Either that or you go democratic and let the majority decide. Though you could still encounter obstacles if someone has to design something which goes against their opinion. That's the major downside of these volunteer projects and also the fact, that you don't sit face to face, being able to sort things out that way.
My advice to the above is simply to figure out how to best avoid ending with the worst case scenarios. It could be letting the team members know that you have assigned a lead designer or that faction descision will be decides by community polls. Setting up team rules or whatever. Discussions can be good in order to reach a better result, but at the same time discussions are also the root to arguments and disagreements. And ppl. just tend to misunderstand online communication far more than when you talk in real life.

If your biggest issue right now, is the lack of a programmer, perhaps you'd have more luck attracting one, if you can show you already have other team members in place, which are able to fill out the other tasks. Like others suggested previously, the more work you can show off, the easier it might be to attract others interested in helping out.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted March 12, 2017 04:00 PM

Quote:
For the moment as the programmer post isn't filled


One programmer alone won't be enough, I can help you with my (although limited) programming knowledge. At the moment I'm pretty busy with other things, but as soon as I get more free time I can contribute something.

What I recommend is using Unreal Engine, it's open source, it's relatively easy to use for level design (even for non-programmers), it's a professional standard already, also you can compile the C++ code directly into machine code and provide the so needed speed a heroes game needs for complex calculations (complex AI algorithms, PBR and more room for algorithms that aren't exactly as optimized as they could be).

First, what it's needed, is a skeleton for a heroes-like game, then we can talk about factions and such.
____________

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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted March 13, 2017 11:55 AM
Edited by valgaav at 11:56, 13 Mar 2017.

VCMI has a team of programmers and it took them 10 years to get where they are now.

You should consider using Vcmi as your engine. Adding needed adjustments there is a lot easier (and will take less time) then doing your own game engine implementation from scratch.

This means going with 2d, but saves you a lot of work.

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Andrettin
Andrettin

Tavern Dweller
posted March 13, 2017 12:07 PM

There's already an open-source HoMM engine - VCMI. Why not use that?

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
MMH7's R.M.G is really welcome
posted March 15, 2017 05:39 PM

Because VCMI is a game engine that depends on the already existing files of Heroes 3.

In other words, using a game engine that had the sole purpose of seriously improving the look and feel of a much older edition of HoMM such as Heroes 3 Complete/Shadow of Death(S.o.D.) would have to be reconditioned to be functional on its own and, would go hand-in-hand with a much newer graphics rendition interface such as Direct X 9.0d(fully functional under Windows 10 32 bits O.S.).

What we need is a person or, persons, that has the intricate know-how to make a game engine that would be very similar to Firaxis' Civilization game(no separate R.M.G. from the core game files)but, stays locked in a middle ages time period with a strong need to use supernatural abilities such a magical spells.

Modding the game should be restricted via a date stamp that will eventually, with time(2+ years after release of this game), release its inner workings. In that perspective of the whole hard coding sense of programming would no longer be literally game breaking to any experienced modder of all editions of the HoMM series.

Moreover, the creation of factions would only be added to the game engine and, not obliged to replace an already existing faction for the newest one or, being stuck at remaining a only 8 factions. Therefore, adding to the fun of making way larger maps that would see itself creating a whole planetary environment(spheric feel that enables your map to be interconnected with both extremes of such map). Example: Your hero and army would appear rather by land or by sea by just continuing straight or diagonally towards a destination that happens to be on the other side of the map without the use of a dimensional gate(same continent on both sides of the map or, same ocean that are on both sides of the map.

Getting at what I am getting at, here. That strategy game needs to evolve greatly in order to regain the previous large fan/player base that this game used to have, a good 15 years ago.


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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted March 17, 2017 10:53 AM
Edited by valgaav at 10:54, 17 Mar 2017.

You sir are wrong. Vcmi is a modern 2d engine that does have transparent png support. So it isn't stuck with 256 colors bmp files like original h3 is.

There is nothing more that you could support in 2d engine really. So it is the question of going 2d vs 3d.

There is more to "heroeslike" game then just graphic engine. All the game mechanics, AI, Random map generator. That is a lot of work, and it is already done in Vcmi.

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
MMH7's R.M.G is really welcome
posted March 17, 2017 02:51 PM

A 2d engine will never go in this time, ever.

valgaav said:
You sir are wrong. Vcmi is a modern 2d engine that does have transparent png support. So it isn't stuck with 256 colors bmp files like original h3 is.

There is nothing more that you could support in 2d engine really. So it is the question of going 2d vs 3d.

There is more to "heroeslike" game then just graphic engine. All the game mechanics, AI, Random map generator. That is a lot of work, and it is already done in Vcmi.


There is nothing in 2d graphics that are modern anymore. Get with the Windows 10+ era will ya! It is Direct X 11 and 12 only or, total bust.

This 32 bit compatibility thingie ain't cutting it, bub! Must stick to 64 bit and 3D resolutions. Many people such as myself, has not had a pure, 100% monitor for a display for at least a half decade.

Besides, TVs are going literally smart as in being to self connect to the internet without the aid of an external modem nor the use of a PC. These Smart TVs are all-in-one units now. Pretty much like the all-in-one printers(printer, scanner, photocopier), these TVs have the whole PC electronics within its own case(Quad Core processor, Sound chipset, LAN chipset and, of course, the embedded G/VPU + chipset; even a generous amount of RAM is also included).

So, the PC has become a retro-active workstation/complex gaming unit and, of course, Internet connectivity for all other System Administrator bound maintenance activities.

Therefore, the TV could handle the 2d gaming like garbage games anytime, any-day. Civilization Revolution 2 has been specifically made for Tablets and Mini-Tablets like phones. Getting my vibes here? I really hope so.


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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted March 17, 2017 03:11 PM

If you guys decide going 2(2.5)D, you have my sincerest sympathies.


____________

Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 17, 2017 04:49 PM

PandaTar said:
If you guys decide going 2(2.5)D, you have my sincerest sympathies.




mine too

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 18, 2017 11:05 AM

Count me on the 2(2.5)D bandwagon as well.

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celiton
celiton


Hired Hero
Thinking before doing
posted March 18, 2017 01:54 PM

Well, I am want to present my opinion with no intention to offend someone, but honestly, I am not sure how these "sincerest sympathies" were meant, but thinking about 2D / 2.5D PC game in time, when virtual reality is taking over, is just sentenced to failure.

What Heroes need is the same renaissance as Cities: Skylines (which is programmed in Unity by CO, which is a studio about 15 employees) has been to SimCity. If your game does not cling to the newest trends in game designing and computer graphics or introduce something innovative, you will never appeal to a larger audience than few loyal community members (to whom I also belong, although not being so active), and this makes it for Heroes even harder. The reason is the receeding popularity of TBS genre, which might get even worse in near future, when VR games will try to become  "a gaming standard".

So if I can give my two cents, the first thing that needs to be answered, is to enumerate reason why your game would be better than previous Heroes games, reasons why it would attract someone who never experienced a heroes-like game before (e.g. TBS, fantasy), why it  would atrract someone who does not identify himself as a gamer. If you find satisfactory answers for these three questions, you should be already able to figure out if there is a demand big enough for even starting thinking of how things should work.

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