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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Warlock Hydra VS Swamp Hydra
Thread: Warlock Hydra VS Swamp Hydra This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 22, 2017 10:02 PM

11 to 1 in favor of the swamp fortress, and still counting.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Bad-mannered
Legendary Hero
Everywhere and nowhere
posted February 22, 2017 11:07 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 23:14, 22 Feb 2017.

Warlock Hydra.

I do like the H3 Fortress, but I prefer the Hydra to be in its original Town.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 22, 2017 11:12 PM

Drakon-Deus said:
Warlock Hydra.

Your chance doesn't look good so far. Almost everyone before you prefers it in the swamp fortress. ^^;
But some variation in opinion haven't hurt anybody. Actually, reconsidering that, it the cause of a majority of conflicts in all of human history. Still, probably won't be bad here.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Bad-mannered
Legendary Hero
Everywhere and nowhere
posted February 22, 2017 11:16 PM

Well I didn't vote for it exactly hoping to win a majority, I voted for it because I prefer the option. And I think you're right.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 23, 2017 03:33 AM

Mediczero said:
The Illithid not so much, prefers something more open, like the darkelves. Although my ideal dungeon is more a collection of races.
I find Dark Elves to be a cop-out, humans with point ears and pale skin, vs the Illithids, which are inhuman enough to by alien, yet human enough that their society might be at least somewhat understandable. Of course, if you don't want Illithids, something like the Skum (also from DnD) also works.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 23, 2017 07:46 AM

MattII said:
I find Dark Elves to be a cop-out, humans with point ears and pale skin, vs the Illithids, which are inhuman enough to by alien, yet human enough that their society might be at least somewhat understandable. Of course, if you don't want Illithids, something like the Skum (also from DnD) also works.

I just don't want something directly taken from D&D, it feels cheap and gives me a bad feeling of potential lawsuits. We would either have to be original or find something more.... "open". And I prefer the dark elves simply because they are one of the few races where they in mythology actually was said to live underground. And they fit the faction perfectly. Nobody said the dungeon race had to be inhumane.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 23, 2017 11:05 AM

Mediczero said:
I just don't want something directly taken from D&D, it feels cheap and gives me a bad feeling of potential lawsuits. We would either have to be original or find something more.... "open".
I agree, I just wanted to use those races to illustrate a point.

Quote:
And I prefer the dark elves simply because they are one of the few races where they in mythology actually was said to live underground. And they fit the faction perfectly.
The dark elves (if they actually exist, the original works are slightly sketch on the point I'm given to understand) are not well fleshed out, most of the 'Dark Elf' cultural development in the modern setting are much more recent, many to do with D&D.

Quote:
Nobody said the dungeon race had to be inhumane.
Most people would, I suspect, prefer it to be to some degree.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 23, 2017 11:20 AM

First point, good. I understand what you mean now, although we still would have to to invent a race unless you can fin something.

Second point, the svartalfs, the original dark elves, although they where the same as dwarfs in some versions. But then again, we can credit the classic fantasy elves to Tolkien's works. The point remains that dark elves are a more common, recognizable race in modern fantasy, and as such is a more viable candidate for a dungeon race than most.

As for the final point, we can't know for sure unless we try and collect some data on the subject. I for one would prefer the dungeon faction to be rule by a collection of races, including exiled human sorcerers, minotaurs, dark elves, and various lesser subterranean races such as ratmen and troglodytes.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted February 23, 2017 01:09 PM
Edited by phe at 13:18, 23 Feb 2017.

Maybe we need two kinds of hydras...big legged Hydra for Swamp Fortress and smaller Hydrus for Warlocks' Dungeon...there are so many dragon types...so many two of hydras could be unless Gorynch is not one more hydra...

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Known Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted February 23, 2017 01:26 PM
Edited by AnkVaati at 13:33, 23 Feb 2017.

Mediczero said:
And I prefer the dark elves simply because they are one of the few races where they in mythology actually was said to live underground. And they fit the faction perfectly.
No, they absolutely don't fit into the faction "perfectly", rather they fit in terribly imho. They have very little to do with the philosophy and ideology behind the faction and just served as way of making it generic because Erwin thought thought that stuff like "themes" or "ideologies" (compare with Magic the gathering) are just way to advanced stuff for the kiddies who like McFantasy, over-sexualised female pixels and cool battle animations, that he wanted to reach out to.

The Warlock faction began in the overworld and can exist there as well, it's actually quite likely they did that for most of the time (someone may fill me in with more details about pre-Ironfist Enroth, that goes for Nighon and Tatalia as well btw. ). Those creatures in the original Warlock faction weren't just some monsters randomly lumped together, they where the results of Warlock experiments - quite fitting for what should be a mixed sci-fi/fantasy setting.

The Warlock faction not about the ridiculously repetitive story of a race if creatures bent on doing evil like demons or undead, its about ordinary human(oid)s who believe in survival of the fittest and decided to use raw magical power for the benefit of themselves alone. Theme-based factions like Tower, Fortress and Dungeon (or Conflux, Rampart etc) made HoMM quite unique that way. After Alamar the great faded into obscurity for some reason, the Warlock/Chaos faction was led by legendary female leaders like Mutare and Tawni but inherently deceptive male sex fantasy dominatrix elves are really out-of-place here.

I realise you've already recognised that Dungeon must be multi-racial, but having dark elves there will be a way of drawing it closer to being generic and race-based while adding nothing of value really.

M&M 8 featured Dark elves that where red-skinned and at least quite different from DnD and Warhammer and the other stereotypes. If bought back, maybe they could end up like a clan in Rampart or something.
____________

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 23, 2017 01:38 PM

So basicly, dark elves don't belong in dungeon because it is "generic", and doesn't fit the "theme" of a faction build around evil magic users? Ahh, I'm gonna go prove you wrong on that.

But seriously, we should stop debating dark elves, it's getting off topic. This is a Hydra Tread after all.

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Known Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted February 23, 2017 05:22 PM
Edited by AnkVaati at 20:46, 23 Feb 2017.



....


Concepts that are totally reminiscent of each other. Really fitting in well with each other. Yay!

Kinda matters because that background story of Hydras and others basically being living experiments (which makes sense in a sci-fi setting), that the snail-eater totally missed about the Warlock town:

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/dungeon_dev_diary.shtml

Quote:
When we looked at the old Dungeon faction we saw various mythological creatures who were only united by the fact that they lived underground. (And even this was a weak uniting feature, because placing some of them – for instance, Medusas – underground was somewhat questionable.)


Quote:
In all the fantasy origins Dark Elves live in a matriarchy – the status of women in their society is rather high. We decided not to change that. Not only does it bring some more diversity to the Heroes of Might and Magic V world, it alsbo distinguishes the Dark Elves more from the Sylvan Elves. Plus, female units make the faction more pleasurable to one’s eye.


Quote:
We somewhat based ourselves on the classical fantasy descriptions and general idea of Dark Elves, yet changed it to fit the Heroes of Might and Magic V universe. Actually, we were inspired by two ideas: the conception of Dungeon in the previous HoMM games and the conception of Dark Elves in various fantasy worlds, especially those Dark Elves that live in the city of Menzoberronzan described by R.A. Salvatore.



....everything that's gone wrong with this game...
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted February 23, 2017 06:17 PM

I don't have a boner at the last image. Where's my pleasure, then, hm?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted February 23, 2017 07:24 PM

I like the swamp hydra from H2 (which belonged to Warlock faction). I also like the swamp hydra in H3. As long as it's a Swamp being, I'm ok with it. Although I prefer hydras as not top-tier.
____________

Heroes-based proposal thread – On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 23, 2017 08:30 PM
Edited by Mediczero at 20:49, 23 Feb 2017.

PandaTar said:
I like the swamp hydra from H2 (which belonged to Warlock faction). I also like the swamp hydra in H3. As long as it's a Swamp being, I'm ok with it. Although I prefer hydras as not top-tier.

Okay, I'm curious. If the hydra goes to the swamp town (given warlocks are subterranean), and it's not top tier, then what should be?

And AnkVaati, may I add two things.
Firstly, unless you where to dig into it, there wasn't too much lore apparent for the faction. It did have some lore, but it wasn't really mentioned anywhere easily accessible in game. Therefor it was easy to come off with the impression of the faction just being a bunch of mythological creatures together.

Secondly, and this is more of a sidenote and mainly just my opinion, the old setting did sci-fi/fantasy terribly!!
I will be the first to admit that I'm more of a fan of pure fantasy than off scifi/fantasy, but the old setting did one major mistake, and that was to focus too hard on the fantasy elements while leaving the sci-fi bits as background info and overall less represented (not an expert though, especially not on the M&M games) This has the bad side effect that all of those sci-fi elements comes off as out of place and stupid. Hell, it's the reason the entire forge town was scrapped, it didn't fit it despite working perfectly in the lore, and that was what made people mad. And how to solve it? Simply having the sci-fi elements more apparent. Look at endless legend for an example. They have factions of the survivors of a crashlanded spaceship or religious robots beside classic fantasy elements such as dragons and mages, and it ****ing works? Why? 1. lore, and you can easily get to and understand the lore, and 2. The entire game has a lowkey sci-fi feeling, not just reserved for some epic plottwist. And that is what the old setting should have done.
Though I'll admit it might not be entirely fai to compare the two seeing as the old setting was created ages ago.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted February 23, 2017 10:29 PM

Warlocks weren't subterranean back then. If you want to make subterranean warlocks with hydras and you want to place a swamp underground too, that's your call. I see no problem with that. Subterranean swamp gives away an even eerier aura, making one wonder if hydra should resemble something else ... Tier can be either 6th, 5th, 4th, as they were in some games, such as H1, H2 and H5. Their signature was always being tanky and hitting all foes around, which was fine whichever version they were in.
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Heroes-based proposal thread – On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 24, 2017 08:09 AM

And if I ever do another complete game design, the hydra's going in neither faction, but in the analogue of Inferno (it bears little actual resemblance to that faction, but fills a similar roll to what it did in H5).

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 24, 2017 08:57 AM

Gotta go with swamp hydra, although I wouldn't mind a pyro-hydra showing up in a dungeon faction so that we have different kinds of hydras.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted February 24, 2017 10:05 AM

I prefer it being only in one faction, seeing as having it in both would get kinda repetitive. And before somebody brings up dragons, I support having different kinds of dragons. H4 and H7, though H7 could have done it better, would be exellent exsamples of what I'm on to. You can't do nearly as much with hydras.

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