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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted May 17, 2019 11:06 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 11:06, 17 May 2019.
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phoenix4ever said:
It would obviously be a lot of work and does'nt change the gameplay, so is perhaps low priority.
It is low priority, but it's something that has bugged me, for like, since I first played her campaign. I think I've also read somewhere even NWC/3DO planned to do it but didn't ultimately had the time/budget for it. I guess it crossed HotA teams minds at least a few times.
It would be cool to include other races visualizations also, even give them unique mounts (though this would not fit with the overall cohesiveness of how a faction hero representation looks). But we're talking a bout a fricking Dragon which is represented as a human on a horse 
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 17, 2019 11:11 AM |
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blob2 said:
But we're talking a bout a fricking Dragon which is represented as a human on a horse
Yeah this seems really weird, I'd give you that.
Yes there is potential for new mounts at least, unicorns for Rampart, wolves for Stronghold etc.
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bayabya
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 17, 2019 12:20 PM |
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Morale/Luck rework
At first I would like to say hello to all in the HOTA community as this is my first post ever on this Forum. I’ve been here reading content for a while but have never speak for myself. Saying all of that I’ve come with idea to change/rework a bit Morale and Luck system. I’m curious about your opinions.
General idea is to add additional two morale/luck modifiers. So maximum cap would be +5 and -5 and couple more minor changes to the system.
Why to do the change?
Currently according to http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Morale http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Luck :
The chances for positives and negatives effects are as follows:
Rating Chance %
-3 1/4 25.0%
-2 1/6 16.7%
-1 1/12 8.3%
0 0 0%
+1 1/24 4.2%
+2 1/12 8.3%
+3 1/8 12.5%
Which in my opinion is not enough to be viable option for strategy choices for towns morale/luck based like: Castle (Heroes with Leadership, Archangels, Grail), Inferno (Devils) or Bastion (Heroes with luck, Grail).
Due to the small positive bonus and relatively evident negative bonus players tend to focus of not having negative morale/luck rather care about having positive as high as possible.
Because of small positives bonuses multiple in game features are practically never used, namely:
-Secondary skills like: Leadership (which is picked only when having multiple power stacks troops from different towns) and especially Luck (which is picked only when player has another ‘snowty’ skill to choose.
- Morale/Luck spells – When was the last time you ‘wasted’ spell turn to cast Famous Sorrow, Fortune or Misfortune spells? Let’s guess – Never?
Rework ideas
-Increasing Morale/Luck cap to +5/-5
Percentage would follow the original patter and be look like below:
+1 1/24 ~4.2%
+2 1/24 * 2 = 1/12 ~8.3%
+3 1/12 * 3/2 = 1/8 ~12.5%
+4 1/8* 4/3 = 1/6 ~ 16.7%
+5 1/6* 5/4 = 5/24 ~ 20.8%
-1 1/12 ~8.3%
-2 1/6 ~ 16.7%
-3 1/4 ~ 25%
-4 1/4 * 4/3 = 1/3 ~33.3%
-5 1/3* 5/4 = 5/12 ~ 41.6%
Increasing Leadership and Luck secondary skill to +4 in expert level (+1basic, +2 Intermediate, +4 expert)
Increasing Sorrow, Misfortune and Fortune spells to give +3 in Expert level.
Specialist with above spells would give +5
Creating a specialist heroes with Leadership and Luck:
- Leadership heroes would increase morale chances of its units by 50%
- Luck heroes would do triple damage when the unit hits lucky strike
- Increasing artifact value from minor to major for Spirit of Oppression currently overpowered) and Hourglass of the Evil Hour
Let’s do the Math
Average damage of the Unit with Luck skill on the expert (+3) level corrently does double damage 1/8 times. Which theoretically does average of 12.5% extra damage.
Average damage of the Unit with Luck skill on the highest level (+5) would does double damage 5/24 times. Which is extra 20.8% damage. (66% increase). Still not as high and not as consistent as Attack skill but the damage increase is significant.
Hero with Luck specialistaion would do triple damage with +5 to luck each lucky strike which would translate to:
Average of ~40% additional damage still not as high and as consistent as specialists with attack skill (Craig, Gondula, Corkes)
Hero with -5 luck would have a colossal 41% chance of getting half damage from each unit which would force him to cast spells like Fortune.
Hero with the specialization with morale with +5 would have:
31.2 % chance of getting morale (really scary, opponent user might be forced to use sorrow spell to decrease morale chances significantly)
Hero with -5 morale would have 41% of missing turn of every unit. Taking a fight with morale being that low would cast definitely most losses in the battlefield or event being a main factor of losing the game.
Drawbacks
You can argue that this change would highly increase RNG factor which partially can be right as I can imagine that random triple damage or couple positive morale in a row would make the difference. However, we need to understand that Heroes 3 is a strategic game that requires from the users optimal choices. This change would not increase the RNG as the percentages of mentioned effects are well known but it would rather force players to adjust their strategy to the current events (like taking more care about positive/negative morale.
Thanks for your time!
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 17, 2019 12:27 PM |
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I think Morale and Luck should go from -3 to +6. (-25% to +25% chance)
That would also leave room for Leadership, Luck, angels, grails and Fortune specialty. (ugh  )
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 02:02 PM |
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I think we all are in agreement to:
1) extend the moral/luck system
2) make spells affecting them a bit stronger.
So, for the extended system, I do think that both options of -5/5 and -3/6 are interesting. One thing, though, is that the spells are just not good enough.
As such, I would propose a baseline of 1/2/3/3, with heroes that have the speciality gaining a 10% increase (so, at level 10 they have 2/3/4/4 and at level 20 it is 3/4/5/5). In these cases, simply to make it more even, the idea of -5/5 seems better, but since negative effects are stronger, a -3/6 does sound good, too.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 04:38 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
For things to make sense, we would actually need male and female models for all classes and races and some of them should perhaps not be riding a horse, like genies or efreet, which are flying.
It would obviously be a lot of work and does'nt change the gameplay, so is perhaps low priority.
And dont forget genderless of hermaphrodites
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted May 17, 2019 04:45 PM |
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Edited by phe at 16:51, 17 May 2019.
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maybe better to extend luck on hero by spell cast of offensive spells...and also morale (extra spell cast per round) but only to magic heroes(Necromancers and magic heroes without Leadership would get equivalent of morale +1/2/3 by levels 10/20/30)...
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 05:03 PM |
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@bayabya
Well your progression in case of negative would be a lil too extensive imho. Lets do a simple algorithm. I would prefer a root function for example f(y)=sqrt(x) multiplied by a factor lets say 7.225 for the x value.
means: with the factor lets say 7.225 for fit roughly to the old values for max morale
pos morale. 7.225
+1 = sqrt(1)*7.225 = 7.225
+2 = sqrt(2)*7.225 = 10.22
+3 = sqrt(3)*7.225 = 12.51
+4 = sqrt(4)*7.225 = 14.45
+5 = sqrt(5)*7.225 = 16.16
+6 = sqrt(6)*7.225 = 17.70
...
same for negative morale. 14.450 (while I think this is too extensive aswell at least at start)
-1 = sqrt(1)*14.450 = 14.45
-2 = sqrt(2)*14.450 = 20.44
-3 = sqrt(3)*14.450 = 25.03
-4 = sqrt(4)*14.450 = 28.90
-5 = sqrt(5)*14.450 = 32.31
-6 = sqrt(6)*14.450 = 35.40
...
luck equivalent.
That would lead to a more reasonable moral bonus/malus, while higher levels aren't that relevant anymore, lower levels have an use at least compared to old 1/24, 1/12, 1/8 , 1/6, 1/4 values. In general this means a buff for necropolis and coflux again. I would stay a common +3 max values, rest of the values could be added on artifact base since artifacts 'coz Hero slots are limited anyway.
graphics.... red old one, blue new one.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 17, 2019 06:13 PM |
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Alright nerds this is a 20 year old forum. Not a place to show off your math skills. 
Please keep it simply though, my feeble brain cannot keep up with this stuff.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 06:56 PM |
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Well this kinda math is still simple enough in case of a root function it start fast and slows down quite soon. Imho thats the best solution for numbers in case of balance. While the old numbers were all a linear progession. I would prefer this kinda progression. It means more or less -> early progression is high (early Leadership is more useful +7%) but the total progression above +3 (old max) slows down very quick, it means: you get less percentages compared to the start. (roughly +2% for every point beyond the max cap from expert Leadership)
Edit: speaking of functions... in case of Exp required for levelups I would also rebalance the whole system.
"inverse hyperbolic sine" sounds reasonable for Experience progression  But I actually don't really know how the balance would fit in I had to change some numbers for an useful Progression
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 17, 2019 07:05 PM |
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I would prefer linear progression, also makes it easier to comprehend the chance.
I also never understood why having negative morale and luck has double the effect of positive morale and luck. Why not have same chance, but in opposite directions. Then it could actually be -6 to +6, with 25% chance in either case.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 07:49 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I would prefer linear progression, also makes it easier to comprehend the chance.
I also never understood why having negative morale and luck has double the effect of positive morale and luck. Why not have same chance, but in opposite directions. Then it could actually be -6 to +6, with 25% chance in either case.
The problem with linear function is, it always has the same linear progression. It's the same useful from point 1 to point 6... e.g. While a function has different effectivity. In case of Leadership I already explained it... you get even with "basic Leadership" nearly the double amount of moral boost in percentages (7.2% compared to old 4.1%), while "expert Leadership" has the same amount of 12.5%. Every further point has a smaller ratio of effectivness -> this means you soon reach a spot when additional points give less benefits. In this case thats the only reason to extent the maximum of 3 points up to an amount of 5-7 (linear progression would mean you reach an overpowered level very soon), only limited to equipment slots. Anyway... the goal is to make early progression more effective while the later progression is at least possible but much less effective.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 17, 2019 07:57 PM |
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So you choose your system because you are afraid morale and luck will become OP? Well I don't know, having +6 is not that easy to reach and if you choose to invest so much in it, it should also be worth it. Compare it to Offense, it is +30%!
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 17, 2019 08:09 PM |
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H4 has morale & luck does +10. Bad morale and luck are -10. Cool than HotA. Yeah 3D0 made one map, where is +250 morale, but no effect. Because of the highest morale can't make an effect. HotA should be the same. So I support +6/-6. Expert leadership gives +6, and sorrow spell takes -6.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 08:13 PM |
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Nope the OP isn't the main factor... Frankly it's the uselessness below expert Level. And yeah according to the factors you see very soon that in case of negativ morale/luck it gets absurde over -3 amount. 1/4 already is 25% -4 equals 1/3 = 33.33%? -5 = 1/2 = 50%? and -6 = 1/1 = 1 = 100%? meaning the Enemy can't move at all?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 17, 2019 08:17 PM |
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They can create such..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 17, 2019 08:30 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Nope the OP isn't the main factor... Frankly it's the uselessness below expert Level. And yeah according to the factors you see very soon that in case of negativ morale/luck it gets absurde over -3 amount. 1/4 already is 25% -4 equals 1/3 = 33.33%? -5 = 1/2 = 50%? and -6 = 1/1 = 1 = 100%? meaning the Enemy can't move at all?
No I guess you did'nt understand. -6 should be 25% chance to freeze, +6 should be 25% chance of an extra turn. Never above or below 25% chance.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 08:33 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I would prefer linear progression, also makes it easier to comprehend the chance.
I also never understood why having negative morale and luck has double the effect of positive morale and luck. Why not have same chance, but in opposite directions. Then it could actually be -6 to +6, with 25% chance in either case.
There is nothing to be understood. The status quo is purely arbitrary. Likewise, changing it to linear progression and equalising positive and negative effects would be arbitrary.
And would make sec skills Leadership and Luck (+ respective spells) as wells as Archdevils less worthwile.
@phoenix4ever You may bring up worthwile ideas sometimes but this is another demand for change just for the sake of change.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 08:34 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
No I guess you did'nt understand. -6 should be 25% chance to freeze, +6 should be 25% chance of an extra turn. Never above or below 25% chance.
This would mean you can plunder every tomb without any real penalty you may also combine every other troop form every town in your army since it's just 12.5% chance for negative moral... well... think for yourself Not speaking of Cove Grail building being useless, Diplomacy even more powerful...
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2019 10:28 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I would prefer linear progression, also makes it easier to comprehend the chance.
I also never understood why having negative morale and luck has double the effect of positive morale and luck. Why not have same chance, but in opposite directions. Then it could actually be -6 to +6, with 25% chance in either case.
phoenix4ever said:
So you choose your system because you are afraid morale and luck will become OP? Well I don't know, having +6 is not that easy to reach and if you choose to invest so much in it, it should also be worth it. Compare it to Offense, it is +30%!
Totally agreed
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