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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 196 pages long: 1 20 40 60 80 100 120 140 160 180 ... 185 186 187 188 189 ... 196 · «PREV / NEXT»
weilan
weilan


Known Hero
posted March 27, 2022 11:25 AM

Phoenix4ever said:
@Hourglass
Nobody cares how good Interference is, it just feels wrong, in several different ways in fact.
Kinda like removing Galthran from the game, but that at least makes a little more sense.
But Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists are apparently still totally fine?! (Yes I know Logistics was nerfed in HotA, but Logistics was never a problem, Logistics specialists were. Maybe also Navigation specialists, especially Elmore!)


I think Interference is cool, but it wasn't really needed in the game. I keep asking myself why didn't they rebalance other skills, especially useless ones like Eagle Eye, First Aid, Fire Magic, Mysticism, Intelligence, Scholar rather than adding a new one. IMO that was a stupid decision on their part.

And while I've grown to like Cove and feel like it was a good addition to the game and and curious about Factory, I think that adding new factions isn't what HoMM3 really needed, it needs small, little, incremental changes and additions.

There is a Vanilla WoW server out there called Turtle WoW that adds such bits of small, incremental changes, like talent, skill, racial changes, a new zone or a quest and it makes the base game more interesting.

I hope the Factory update for HoTA actually has a lot of small changes that rebalance useless skills.

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Erathianer
Erathianer


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2022 11:32 AM

MattII said:
Hourglass said:
MattII said:

That's only 20% though. I note you haven't offered a response to the fact that the skill is virtually never offered to might heroes.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring this with? Or did you meant magic heroes, perhaps? Might heroes, or maybe especially the most used ones, such Beastmasters, Overlords and Barbarians have decent changes of learning the skill. And since the skill is literally only used in final battles, there's no need of having it right away. Actually, despite Rangers being a good class also, imo they overshoot their ability of achieving the skill. Interference, just like Resistance, doesn't create tempo in the early game, so I personally rather have it later than sooner. After mastering a bunch of skills, the chances of learning the skill go up nicely.
Yes I mean not offered to magic heroes.

Quote:
And I don't personally see how even 20% is somehow bad, and the point here was that we combine the skill and the items, and that those named artifacts can be obtained without a sweat aka with very little danger within the fights.  I mean, I personally find it absurd that there's a possibility of lowering the enemy spell power by 75% without counting Giselle, so even having 40%-50% of is a really, really big advantage in the end fight. Magic heroes basically draw their advantages and game plan by having a lot of effectiveness and power within their casts, so interrupting such things will achieve an upper hand in a battle against a mage.
You're still assuming that:
A) Your hero is given the opportunity to learn the skill (this isn't guaranteed.
B[1]) Those particular artefacts are on the map.
B[2]) One of your heroes can get the artefacts.


And it still doesn't affect blesses and curses beyond duration.

Erathianer said:
So I think a hero should be able to cast spells even if his last unit is blinded. Then he should be the last one in the combat round to have the possibity of casting a spell OR retreat. That would break this STUPID blind + resurection combo.
How do you go seven rounds of being Blinded without casting Cure?


I think it's just not realistic that the hero of the blinded unit is standing around watching the opponent doing stuff. He should be able to cast cure for example or retreat.

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Erathianer
Erathianer


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2022 11:34 AM

MattII said:
Hourglass said:
MattII said:

That's only 20% though. I note you haven't offered a response to the fact that the skill is virtually never offered to might heroes.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring this with? Or did you meant magic heroes, perhaps? Might heroes, or maybe especially the most used ones, such Beastmasters, Overlords and Barbarians have decent changes of learning the skill. And since the skill is literally only used in final battles, there's no need of having it right away. Actually, despite Rangers being a good class also, imo they overshoot their ability of achieving the skill. Interference, just like Resistance, doesn't create tempo in the early game, so I personally rather have it later than sooner. After mastering a bunch of skills, the chances of learning the skill go up nicely.
Yes I mean not offered to magic heroes.

Quote:
And I don't personally see how even 20% is somehow bad, and the point here was that we combine the skill and the items, and that those named artifacts can be obtained without a sweat aka with very little danger within the fights.  I mean, I personally find it absurd that there's a possibility of lowering the enemy spell power by 75% without counting Giselle, so even having 40%-50% of is a really, really big advantage in the end fight. Magic heroes basically draw their advantages and game plan by having a lot of effectiveness and power within their casts, so interrupting such things will achieve an upper hand in a battle against a mage.
You're still assuming that:
A) Your hero is given the opportunity to learn the skill (this isn't guaranteed.
B[1]) Those particular artefacts are on the map.
B[2]) One of your heroes can get the artefacts.


And it still doesn't affect blesses and curses beyond duration.

Erathianer said:
So I think a hero should be able to cast spells even if his last unit is blinded. Then he should be the last one in the combat round to have the possibity of casting a spell OR retreat. That would break this STUPID blind + resurection combo.
How do you go seven rounds of being Blinded without casting Cure?


I think it's just not realistic that the hero of the blinded unit is standing around watching the opponent doing stuff. He should be able to cast cure for example or retreat.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 27, 2022 11:56 AM
Edited by MattII at 20:34, 27 Mar 2022.

Hourglass said:
Okay, now that makes more sense.

That being said, I expect magic heroes doing well in certain areas, and expect might heroes being better in some another area. If you look back, the magic heroes did have pathetic chances of learning Resistance as well, and I don't see that as a problem either. I mean, it's a might skill after all, they don't have good chances of obtaining Offence either, but I'm not mad for them about it.
One big difference between Offence and Interference is that Offense is universally useful, while Interference only really works fairly well against magic heroes, not so much might heroes, and not at all against neutral stacks.

Quote:
Obviously nothing is ever guaranteed in a game like this. To some extend, I see similarities between Homm3 hero building and a deck building game such Magic the Gathering; while there's luck involved, you're not on the mercy of pure RNG. This is why you don't see Knights as main heroes, or why heroes like Beastmasters and Overlords are being run game after game after game. So, your "plan" can fail, but if you keep pushing the best possible odds within your games, you will achieve more victories. And this ultimately leads to why Interference is so widely being used; it's not a secret that including it to your build while going after those artifacts increases your win%.
Thing is, you can't decide what odds the computer draws for skill offers or artefact placement.

Quote:
Like I said, there are only couple of debuffs and buffs that tend to see play in final battles, and interestingly, Slow and Haste also happen to cancel each other out. And for example in Haste's case, the aren't really much, if anything, you can do against it pre-battle, other than building up Interference. While I see countless arguments of the final battle having huge amounts of SP and therefore duration wouldn't really come to play, note that not every battle is treated as such. Sometimes, you meet up with each other before being able to gear up, and might heroes usually have pretty pathetic spell power in those kind of scenarios. So, being able to cut enemy duration of just 1-2 points can be game winning.
Haste, Shield, Slow, Curse, Bless, Cure all look reasonably useful, Though I have no idea how they'd play out in competitive play, and all are level 1.

Quote:
If Interference was somehow "bad", we wouldn't see it in any level of play, and most certainly not among the best players. I would like you to explain this contradiction.
Oh I'm not saying it's a bad skill, I just don't think it's quite an A-tier skill like Offence, Wisdom, Logistics, etc. because it is simply too situational.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 27, 2022 02:27 PM

weilan said:
I think Interference is cool, but it wasn't really needed in the game. I keep asking myself why didn't they rebalance other skills, especially useless ones like Eagle Eye, First Aid, Fire Magic, Mysticism, Intelligence, Scholar rather than adding a new one. IMO that was a stupid decision on their part.


Intelligence was nerfed because it was one of the most game defining skill in HoMM3. Putting it in one bag with Eagle Eye or Mysticism is really, really wrong.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted March 28, 2022 08:21 AM

MattII said:

Oh I'm not saying it's a bad skill, I just don't think it's quite an A-tier skill like Offence, Wisdom, Logistics, etc. because it is simply too situational.

Oh, then we're closer within our opinions than I initially might have thought, although Interference clearly isn't too situational. If we're expecting A-tier being the best within skills such as Earth Magic and Offence in it, then I would put Interference on B-tier. It's just that Nimo has been recently being drumming about "useless Interference", and many players in HC purely play solo play, and thus don't necessary face how the small investment  towards Interference pays off if we're facing a human player, and not a machine that is made to entertain us. I feel the usefulness of Interference isn't well presented in HC, so that's why I'm going so "strong" about this, as I have something to add to this discussion.

Btw, if you're interested how the skills are seen in MP scene, I suggest watching the tier list made by Lexiav. I don't necessary agree with him completely, but it's a solid list regardless. And this is made for JC, but as long as the template's rules are not completely different (such as something like not being able to play but only with one hero), I think this goes pretty well for most other templates as well.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted March 28, 2022 08:34 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 08:43, 28 Mar 2022.

Random Level Seven Dwelling

Idea for a new dwelling: kind of a refugee camp but creatures are always level 7, upgraded or not, and you have to fight 3 of the new type to take a new creature, every week. Could have a smaller chance of getting special dragons, too.
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 29, 2022 10:27 AM
Edited by MattII at 10:29, 29 Mar 2022.

Talking of Interference, I feel some other skills could be changed to increase their viability:
Learning - Change to 10/20/30%.
Sorcery - Increases spell power in general, and does so by 5/15/25%.
Eagle Eye (I know, I know) - Change to 50%/75%/100% and level 2/3/5 spells.
First Aid - FATent health is boosted to 150/300/600 hp, it heals 1-50/1-100/1-200 hp, and removes all negative spell effects. (possible) In addition, heroes have Basic/Advanced/Expert Cure added to their spell books.

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wojtulace
wojtulace


Hired Hero
posted March 29, 2022 04:18 PM

Suggestion: implement caravan system from Heroes V.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 29, 2022 04:48 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 16:51, 29 Mar 2022.

20/30% interference not only is useless vs blesses and curses which ARE important but is also not really that useful vs damage spells either since the BASE damage isn't affected. This base damage, as I have said many times, is in the order of about 6 power, even more in the case of expert magic (which isn't affected either). So, 30% interference isn't even like 30% direct damage reduction, it's more like 15%...

Spoilers: Interference snows.

It's only logical HotA team nerfed their own Intelligence skill before creating interference, something which inteferes with good game design.


Therefore, we should join the Resistance...

Get it?
____________
Never changing = never improving

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wojtulace
wojtulace


Hired Hero
posted March 29, 2022 06:31 PM
Edited by wojtulace at 19:05, 29 Mar 2022.

There are some good ideas implemented by plugins, examples:

- Eagle Eye lets learn spells DURING battle, not AFTER
- Creature Dwellings allow to recruit upgraded units WHEN you have built an upgrade building in one of your cities
- Estates ability scales with hero level (no more 'economy' heroes)
- Level 7 creatures gained from creature banks match your castle (not immesive)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 29, 2022 09:39 PM
Edited by MattII at 04:55, 30 Mar 2022.

NimoStar said:
20/30% interference not only is useless vs blesses and curses which ARE important but is also not really that useful vs damage spells either since the BASE damage isn't affected. This base damage, as I have said many times, is in the order of about 6 power, even more in the case of expert magic (which isn't affected either). So, 30% interference isn't even like 30% direct damage reduction, it's more like 15%...
Let's check that:
Level 1
Magic Arrow - 1/2/3 power
Level 2
Lightning Bolt - 0.4/0.8/2 power
Death Ripple - 2/4/6 power
Fire Wall - 1/2/5 power
Ice Bolt - 1/2/5 power
Level 3
Destroy Undead - 1/2/5 power
Fireball - 1/3/6 power
Land Mine - 2.5/5/10 power
Frost Ring - 1.5/3/6 power
Level 4
Chain Lightning - 0.625/1.25/2.5 power
Meteor Shower - 1/2/4 power
Armageddon - 0.6/1.2/2.4 power
Inferno - 2/4/8 power
Level 5
Implosion - 1.333.../2.666.../4 power

You're overstating the base damage, 6 is a high Expert-level base amount. Not let's see how that stacks up in game terms (at 10/20 original power):
Level 1
Magic Arrow -  23/26% (130 > 100/230 > 170)
Level 2
Lightning Bolt - 25/27% (300 > 225/550 > 400)
Death Ripple - 19/23% (80 > 65/130 > 100)
Fire Wall - 20/24% (150 > 120/250 > 190)
Ice Bolt - 24/27% (250 > 190/450 > 330)
Level 3
Destroy Undead - 20/24% (150 > 120/250 > 190)
Fireball - 19/23% (160 > 130/260 > 200)
Land Mine - 15/20% (200 > 170/300 > 240)
Frost Ring - 19/23% (160 > 130/260 > 200)
Level 4
Chain Lightning - 24/27% (500 > 380/900 > 660)
Meteor Shower - 21/25% (350 > 275/600 > 450)
Armageddon - 24/27% (620 > 470/1120 > 820)
Inferno - 17/21% (180 > 150/280 > 220)
Level 5
Implosion - 21/25% (1050 > 825/1800 > 1350)

So only in the case of Land Mine does it get down to 15% (Inferno being the next nearest), otherwise it's more in the region of 19-27% reduction. It also, as noted, also affects the use of other spells, such as Hypnotise, Animate Dead, Resurrection, and the summoning of Elementals.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 29, 2022 11:11 PM

Eh, you have to remember that most of HotA's balancing was done with JC template in mind. JC basically means swimming in artifacts, having 20-30 stats for the final battle, etc. In such scenarios, spells such as Summon elemental or Implosion are game changers. This is precisely why HotA team nerfed intelligence (because not having intelligence would usually mean defeat under the conditions above) and introduced Interference (this, along with the players being showered in artifacts, would usually reduce the SP in the endgame fight by half - interference+a possible artifact or two). All of this was to reduce the power of said spells and put more emphasis on might, which was rather underpowered under JC rules.

This is NOT the case for a standard map, or non-comp gameplay that doesn't depend on banks and (in case of JO template) Pandora boxes + getting almost guaranteed crapton of Relic class artifacts. In those scenarios, Might is stronger than Magic, and Interference isn't really worth your time unless you're playing Giselle and/or campaign heroes in final maps.


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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2022 03:51 AM

That is something that took me a lot time to get my head around, and that most people talk about balance multiplayer, they don't talk about balance multiplayer actually, they talk specifically about JC balance. For a lot of people heroes 3 is JC, that is.
So yes when a lot of people say this that strong or this weak, they are actually correct, but in a weird way, just in how much it affects JC.
But the annoying thing is that is confusing because they never specify that, I don't know if because they want to pretend that only JC exist or because they only played JC for the last 10 years and in their reality only JC exist.

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Revolut1oN
Revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2022 08:15 AM

Interferance is still a must have on other templates, for example 6lm10a or nostalgia.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted April 01, 2022 01:21 PM

A very good info, thanks, Revolut1on.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

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BADiViN3R
BADiViN3R

Tavern Dweller
posted April 02, 2022 02:48 PM

MattII said:
Talking of Interference, I feel some other skills could be changed to increase their viability:
Learning - Change to 10/20/30%.
Sorcery - Increases spell power in general, and does so by 5/15/25%.
Eagle Eye (I know, I know) - Change to 50%/75%/100% and level 2/3/5 spells.
First Aid - FATent health is boosted to 150/300/600 hp, it heals 1-50/1-100/1-200 hp, and removes all negative spell effects. (possible) In addition, heroes have Basic/Advanced/Expert Cure added to their spell books.



I think by far learning is the worst skill. It not only doesn't gives you nothing, it ruins you. Even Kinkeria with 10/20/30 with speciality, she advances other heroes 1,5 levels generally. So she wastes a secondary skill slot and 3 levels to get 1,5 level. This is a joke. A game ruin skill. It should have been like 30/60/90

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted April 02, 2022 07:01 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:13, 02 Apr 2022.

Quote:
So only in the case of Land Mine does it get down to 15% (Inferno being the next nearest), otherwise it's more in the region of 19-27% reduction. It also, as noted, also affects the use of other spells, such as Hypnotise, Animate Dead, Resurrection, and the summoning of Elementals.


Doesn't matter, I will not eat my shoes because of the difference between 15 and 19% (although 15 and 17 also appear),

But besides that you have to take into account the absolute vs relative level of resistance vs interference, for example wthe interference damage that will overkill a small stack still works.

Magic is often used to destroy small stacks, or even clone stacks.

Small stacks block movement and prevent retaliation just as much as lrge stacks and thus have strategic value.

If you need that one pikeman, dragon fly, or Master Genie to live, the choice is more than clear.

Resistance can have an effect on this by preventing your small stacks by being overkilled with magic (either single or area effect), while Interference can't because the damage reduction is relativly insignificant.

Thus the boolean yes damage/no damage is much more significant than -% damage.

Resistance ruins your opponent's game plan while interference only hampers by an often non-significant amount.

BTW, interference being sought in some specific multiplayer templates doesn't mean it's a well designed skill and doesn't say wether people would not seek out Resistance more if it existed. At least half of secondary skills are borderline useless (Learning, First Aid, Eagle Eye, etc.) so "some players choose it" isn't a good metric. The only skill with which it competed in function is removed.
Enable both Resistance and Interference and see which one players prefer when they can choose ingame. I'm certain of the answer.
____________
Never changing = never improving

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted April 02, 2022 09:43 PM

NimoStar said:
Quote:
So only in the case of Land Mine does it get down to 15% (Inferno being the next nearest), otherwise it's more in the region of 19-27% reduction. It also, as noted, also affects the use of other spells, such as Hypnotise, Animate Dead, Resurrection, and the summoning of Elementals.


Doesn't matter, I will not eat my shoes because of the difference between 15 and 19% (although 15 and 17 also appear),

But besides that you have to take into account the absolute vs relative level of resistance vs interference, for example wthe interference damage that will overkill a small stack still works.

Magic is often used to destroy small stacks, or even clone stacks.

Small stacks block movement and prevent retaliation just as much as lrge stacks and thus have strategic value.

If you need that one pikeman, dragon fly, or Master Genie to live, the choice is more than clear.

Resistance can have an effect on this by preventing your small stacks by being overkilled with magic (either single or area effect), while Interference can't because the damage reduction is relativly insignificant.

Thus the boolean yes damage/no damage is much more significant than -% damage.

Resistance ruins your opponent's game plan while interference only hampers by an often non-significant amount.
You say all this like assuming that Resistance will actually deliver on its promises. The thing is though, you can't guarantee that. If you get three no-blocks in a row, that's not unfair, that's entirely fair, since it gives only a 20% change of resisting spells.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 03, 2022 12:18 AM

MattII said:

You say all this like assuming that Resistance will actually deliver on its promises. The thing is though, you can't guarantee that. If you get three no-blocks in a row, that's not unfair, that's entirely fair, since it gives only a 20% change of resisting spells.

+ Dwarves, unicorns, resistance artifacts (if not combo artifact) and Thorgrim.
It can certainly be a lot more than 20%...

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