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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 20 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 · «PREV / NEXT»
Bonyth
Bonyth

Tavern Dweller
posted May 27, 2017 12:31 AM

you see Ericoz, HoMM3 has become a classic game by now. If u change the game so much, a big percentage of players will walk away from it.
We know that changes made by HotA were minor, but good. Even so, I have a friend so conservative that he feels like some of the changes were unnecessary.
Splitting the H3 community is not our goal here.

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RerryR
RerryR


Known Hero
posted May 27, 2017 01:24 AM

Ericoz said:
I disagree, making bad SS/spells a viable option would make the game even better.

I mean, we get tired of mass haste/slow breaking the game so hard. We get tired of avoiding EE/FA/Sorcery/Learning like they are the plague.

What if those finally became somewhat viable? That would be fun.


I agree with you, but save your breath here, suggestions in this direction have been made many times but not much happens. Considering the current development speed of HOTA you will be an old grandpa before you see these changes, and even if they happen we probably wont be happy with it.

So the only way is to customize the game the way you like it! and for this we have ERA with Mods. A lot of people here have done it already.
Making all SS viable is not so hard as it may sound. All it needs is a little tweak in numbers and a few new mechanics. The new playing experience is very nice.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 27, 2017 02:12 AM
Edited by Ericoz at 02:23, 27 May 2017.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the game and will keep loving it with or without changes.

Sometimes I get this feeling that die hard fans don't want the game to change the slightest because "it is a classic by now". Look, you can always play the SOD version, even if people are still creating content for this game at this point you don't need to be this close minded. Play the original. It's not like HOTA, VCMI, WOG, ERA or whatever hold any rights to the game.

And I'm sure HOTA won't listen to these things anyway, they seem to be pretty conservative. I'm really just trying to feel if you guys see the problems of the game the same way I do without the nostalgia goggles.

RerryR said:

So the only way is to customize the game the way you like it! and for this we have ERA with Mods. A lot of people here have done it already.
Making all SS viable is not so hard as it may sound. All it needs is a little tweak in numbers and a few new mechanics. The new playing experience is very nice.


Yes, been there done that. I wish someday we would sit on a consensus regarding MP.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 27, 2017 05:20 AM

Ericoz said:
Play the original.


The problem with this argument is Hota is genuine enough to feel like an original expansion made by NWC. To me personally going back to SoD after playing Hota feels like a downgrade. Not only for the tuning than for the content: new map objects, new artifacts, new creatures, new town...

This is what makes Hota what it is, despite all novelties, the game remains the same at its core, and what you want to fix I consider is not broken in the first place.

The only problem is, if you redirect people to wog, they will miss Hota's content, like Cove, as it wants to be exclusive. But this is Hota's policy.
____________

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 27, 2017 09:56 AM

If you don't think might and mass spells are broken you should seriously start playing online with a mage as a main. Also try to focus on single target spells. Leave what we call broken to the other player. You'll get whacked on a minimum 90% of time by a half brain armorer/offense specialty hero with an army half the size of yours.

If you don't think a lot of SS are subpar and the idea is good on paper but bad implemented in the game, that some are even worthless and literally a waste of slot, we really have nothing to discuss anymore.

On a side note, non official exclusive feels like an oxymoron. I recall someone hoping people to unite all mod contents into a more flexible and open to modding version. I'd pay money for that.

Imagine if HOMM3 had an editor like Warcraft 3. I keep coming back to W3 because of the diversity of maps that amazing editor can pull off.

Imagine if you could modify/add units/towns/skills/magic on a very simple editor. I could only dream of such wonders and I believe the first mod to allow that will revolutionize HOMM3.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 27, 2017 10:31 AM

Ericoz said:
If you don't think might and mass spells are broken you should seriously start playing online with a mage as a main.


You confound the templates players designed -because they LIKED playing with high level mights only, with HoMM original template, how it was supposed to be. I see no problem playing with mages on a medium random map, where players meet day 3-4 and start skirmish.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 27, 2017 11:28 AM
Edited by Ericoz at 11:31, 27 May 2017.

You're right on some mages (with an offensive spell) being viable on small/medium maps, assuming you can skirmish early on. But they scale horribly after.

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Bonyth
Bonyth

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2017 02:33 PM

Salamandre said:
Ericoz said:
If you don't think might and mass spells are broken you should seriously start playing online with a mage as a main.


You confound the templates players designed -because they LIKED playing with high level mights only, with HoMM original template, how it was supposed to be. I see no problem playing with mages on a medium random map, where players meet day 3-4 and start skirmish.


That's also very true. In the end, might and magic can be balanced through templates alone. If magic and knowledge placed spawn x times more than attack & defense, then mages would be the better option for such a template.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 28, 2017 04:40 PM

The CD maps show the original pattern: entirely open field, little experience, no relics, little mobs challenge, optimal for skirmish multiplayer as only action. Leveling fast was not common and those who played in the first 3-4 ToH years through the medium given maps know that hero choice wasn't important at all. A level 7 Crag Hack isn't better than a level 7 mage when you have barely one week army and 10 magic arrow can dispatch it. Those were 2-3 hours games and usually the guy handling best chains and map chock points was the winner.

Then people wanted slower games, they preferred playing vs AI for 1-2 weeks before a final battle, they designed such templates and found out that might levels better than mages. However game designers didn't have in mind you will have the choice who to fight for 14 days or just wait, they wanted an interactive game, from the very start. In such games, scouting, first aid, eagle eye, sorcery, resistance are great tools for getting the perfect chain and break enemy's economy by killing all its scouts before he can reach chests or artifacts. Now maps are closed and the "honor" rule is "no hit and run". In such artificial conditions, high scouting or resistance skills, for example makes no sense. Thus people think they are broken from the start, while they are not.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 29, 2017 02:19 AM
Edited by Ericoz at 02:20, 29 May 2017.

I think the game is not balanced to withstand anything bigger than a large map. I see XL maps and Hota implementing Huge, Extra Huge and Giant and think it's too over the top and suddenly even 8 heroes seem too little.

But imo the core points to why might is better is how they outscale mages with their superior SS that boosts a weekly growing army and how the best spells are low level and not really tied to power to be effective.

Salamandre will you please stop defending EE?

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted May 29, 2017 04:24 AM

I've get a good idea of EE, I hope AI use a FF, and berserk, and practical EE realize a plan. You don't need create scholar, or quest hut. If you are mapmaker. Tome of Fire Magic is very powerful against Azure Dragon, but if visited EE before you battle against mastered dragogeddon, you need berserk. Nowadays EE for slow, blind, resurrection. In only mapmaker knows.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 29, 2017 09:01 AM

Ericoz said:
will you please stop defending EE?


As soon as you stop denying it entirely.


You calculate all odds by using today's templates as pattern. I've seen eagle eye balance the game on scarce maps. Its weird that you consider that:

Ericoz said:
This means the game's outcome is being decided by luck and not skill.


But then say eagle eye is useless. While EE is exactly the skill which will fix the odds of not having slow, haste, magic arrow or whatever in your starting guild, and IT WORKS. It takes a lot of skill when luring the opponent into a minor fight so you can learn the leaked spell you need. But what would you know, today people play templates where you can build 3-4 different mage guilds before going into human vs human fight. That doesn't mean it has to be that way.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 29, 2017 09:23 AM

If Eagle Eye worked 100% of the time it might have been worth something, but it maxes at 60% and then there are 3 crappy artifacts, only useable for heroes dumb enough to choose Eagle Eye...
Scholar works 100% of the time and both ways, that is a much better skill.
Eagle Eye ranges from useless to very situational.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 29, 2017 09:44 AM

phoenix4ever said:
only useable for heroes dumb enough to choose Eagle Eye...


And why that? Who said you need EE on your main, supposed you play a game where you have a main hero?

All you need to know how the various classes level, or get a hero with EE as starting skill. Then use this hero to get the spell you lack. Yes, it is situational and will probably be effective or needed 1 game out of 20. Yet, this is the core difference between the ignorant which will start whine as soon as odds are not 100% in his favor, then the experienced player who will use ALL game resources to accomplish his goal.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 29, 2017 10:11 AM

You don't need to use all gaming resources.
In fact you are better of avoiding useless skills like Eagle Eye, Learning and First Aid except at very situational times.
Mysticism and Sorcery I made quite viable in my game, otherwise those are also skills best avoided.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 29, 2017 10:16 AM

phoenix4ever said:
You don't need to use all gaming resources.


Not true, vs human opponent you need to use ALL game resources. Some will be very situational, of course.

phoenix4ever said:
in my game, otherwise those are also skills best avoided.


In your game, on your custom map, vs computer opponents. Yes, we agree.

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Drslash
Drslash

Tavern Dweller
posted May 29, 2017 05:26 PM
Edited by Drslash at 17:43, 29 May 2017.

The main problem of Eagle Eye is not the chance of it working being too low, but the fact that even if it dies work, it only happens after defeating opponent's main hero ...which is basically when the game is over. There were ideas to make it possible to learn spells from certain units (enchanters, genies, fairy dragons etc.) but it would still be too situational. Another problem is that there are custom maps that heavily utilize current mechanics of EE, so it is vital that EE's original mechanics are preserved (albeit modified to some degree) instead of being replaced completely by something new.

Situation with First Aid is similar to EE, in respect that the problem lies beyond numbers.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 29, 2017 07:07 PM

There are indeed many problems with Eagle Eye, but one of them is the % which can be boosted easily. And why not having it learn spells from creatures and perhaps level 5 spells?, it would make it a lot better.

And First Aid can be buffed to heal more and the tent itself can be made more durable.

But if HotA Crew can do something else about these skills, I am very excited to see what.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Known Hero
posted May 29, 2017 09:36 PM

In the course of this thread two meaningful ideas for a EE were posted. One was completely removing it.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 30, 2017 04:52 AM
Edited by Ericoz at 04:57, 30 May 2017.

Problem with EE on MP (all popular mp templates including the original) is the amount of shrines and scrolls you can find around the map. I'm not even counting on maybe finding another town. Now the other problem is that it could only be useful if you're on a losing position. And if you're on a losing position there are better skills to pick other than EE. It is also a gamble since chance is only 60% at expert.

Now if you could learn spells from a distance (say your regular scouting radius) from your and allied towns, and having that chance to learn a random spell (based on your skill level) from an enemy town each day, plus the already too situational effect it already has, now that would be a skill I'd consider picking.

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