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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 08, 2021 08:09 AM |
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Seems like (some) of you people are underestimating Mass Haste, if this is cast at the beginning of the round and it allows 6-7 stacks to attack you before you can do anything, (or VS neutrals which can't do anything to counter it) it can hurt a lot!
Percentages can be deceiving, if you compare the +speed from Haste VS the -speed from Slow they are pretty equal, often Haste will actually add more than Slow subtracts.
For Slow to give more than -5 you need to fight fast units and there are only a few fast units, most units have 5-7 speed normally.
Slow is still great and still the go-to spell VS neutrals, but Haste is pretty much at the same power level, especially since it counters Slow!
Mass Haste at +4 would have been more than fine, the fact that it's better, cheaper and easier to learn than Prayer is pretty crazy.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2021 10:23 AM |
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The whole 'Haste vs. Slow' thing isn't as simple as numbers, you also have to take into account whether the units in question are one tile or two tiles in size, whether they walk or fly (teleporting is the same as flying in most instances, whether either side is on their native terrain, what obstacles there are, etc.
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted June 08, 2021 03:06 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Seems like (some) of you people are underestimating Mass Haste
Nah, I don't think they are.
It's just that regardless of the game mode, in 95%+ of time you're up against neutrals enemies that are very vulnerable to the game's most ancient strategy: first cast expert slow, and then shoot the enemies as long as they become unable to fight back. Slow allows the player do fights that wouldn't be possible otherwise, especially in the early game. While Haste can sometimes outperform Slow, there are simply more cases where Slow is better, and that's the reason people rank it higher.
But to get more back to where it started:
Personally, seeing -1 speed artifact could be really cool, and I don't see it being too OP. It's a simple mechanic, easy to understand and therefore suitable effect for Hota. I think the more complex artifact effect suit other mods better.
If only 1 such artifact would exist and it would only give -1 speed, then there wouldn't need to be any extra rules (as it would be impossible to drop minimum speed under 2)
It should probably be major artifact, and I think neck should be the most suitable slot to wear it.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 08, 2021 04:44 PM |
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Interesting!
Ok my idea/hope is AI.
Easy-Expert difficulty level is the same. Ok Impossible level AI never lost troops against neutral. If stronger than neutral also dumb AI never wanted against AIs due to loss troops, if stronger primary skills, AI beat the AI without loss. So the game becomes faster and harder. Also if you agree with creature bonus from the Fear, but smaller units, what? Only 7-10level grows +1 per a day, if AI has 7-10lvl monster. One week does 7 plus bought from town and dwelling. And still what? Primary skill bonuses: random +1 per a day. Only impossible level. No impossible but complete AI. Why? Human vs AI, human uses Force Field, Hit & Run, etc what's the normal to beat the AI without nightmare level from some mapmaker. It doesn't only the matter but also 3D0 maps become nice "harder".
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 09, 2021 12:36 AM |
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Hourglass said:
It's just that regardless of the game mode, in 95%+ of time you're up against neutrals enemies that are very vulnerable to the game's most ancient strategy: first cast expert slow, and then shoot the enemies as long as they become unable to fight back. Slow allows the player do fights that wouldn't be possible otherwise, especially in the early game. While Haste can sometimes outperform Slow, there are simply more cases where Slow is better, and that's the reason people rank it higher.
Thats another aspect yeah, "Progress" early and lategame while keeping your units alive while aquiring more units in banks for example. Speaking of banks, the reason they added steel golems in the first place was the 1 more speed. That way and early game they are a bigger thread now just for that single point.
Hourglass said:
Personally, seeing -1 speed artifact could be really cool, and I don't see it being too OP. It's a simple mechanic, easy to understand and therefore suitable effect for Hota. I think the more complex artifact effect suit other mods better.
I don't see a difference to already existing +1 or +2 speed items. What's the difference to negative speed for enemies? They only thing I can think of -> if you combine (+2 for own hero and -2 to enemies) you already have a weaker version of mass slow without casting anything. So much about "being balanced"
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted June 09, 2021 02:18 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
I don't see a difference to already existing +1 or +2 speed items. What's the difference to negative speed for enemies? They only thing I can think of -> if you combine (+2 for own hero and -2 to enemies) you already have a weaker version of mass slow without casting anything. So much about "being balanced"
Well, of course there is a difference? Perhaps you thought heroes 4/5 for a second, but in Homm3 speed does not only mean initiate/turn order, but movement capability/distance as a whole.
So, if you're up against Familiars with speed 7, the -1 speed artifact would reduce their max. movement distance to 6. Therefore, instead of being able to cross the battlefield in two turns, their movement wouldn't be enough anymore, and they would need an extra turn. And thus, you could further weaken the enemy by shooting them and/or by casting spells.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 10, 2021 08:28 AM |
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Hourglass said:
Well, of course there is a difference? Perhaps you thought heroes 4/5 for a second, but in Homm3 speed does not only mean initiate/turn order, but movement capability/distance as a whole.
Thats why there was my last sentence -> it's already a lil weaker version of slow coz the movement range reduction isnt that hard as with slow.
Quote:
So, if you're up against Familiars with speed 7, the -1 speed artifact would reduce their max. movement distance to 6. Therefore, instead of being able to cross the battlefield in two turns, their movement wouldn't be enough anymore, and they would need an extra turn. And thus, you could further weaken the enemy by shooting them and/or by casting spells.
Well familars ain't the problem here, they are never a thread to anything but I got your point. As i said, read my last quoted sentence where i already state the this wouldnt be a nice balance
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted June 10, 2021 05:48 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Well familars ain't the problem here, they are never a thread to anything but I got your point. As i said, read my last quoted sentence where i already state the this wouldnt be a nice balance
Somehow, I still have a feeling of we not fully understanding each other. 
It's possible to get up to +4 speed advantage even today at the start of the fight without casting anything.
What I suggested was a major artifact that would give -1 speed, and that would be worn on neck. Therefore, it would be impossible to wear all speed related artifacts at the same time, so the max speed difference you can build by using artifacts wouldn't change. Such artifact would probably be among the better major artifacts, but not even the best one there is.
When talking about artifact balance, I think it would be rather hard to "break" the game anyway. If none of the Angelic Alliance items wouldn't exist and someone would suggest an artifact that would give +6 all primary stats, that guy would be laughed out of the room. There are many things in the game that aren't really "fair", but you can simply counter something OP by using OP of your own.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2021 03:16 PM |
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Well for that case I already suggested some time ago a "Legendary" class for artifacts and put in some of the absurdly overpowered relics in. Angelic Wings, 1/2 of AA Set, e.g.
There should be much greater challenges than Utopias to get them, or at least reduce the rate for Utopias to get them.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 15, 2021 04:02 PM |
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Yeah no work! Mapmaker can put a 1lvl monster, etc If you want be reason. I recommend a new 25 relic artifacts, 25 Major, etc So random brings mythical rare Angel's Wings. Another alternative is maximum random major. Relic you dig a land or put on the map. H4 style. How we have the Grail already. Yeah obelisks give the Grail, and oracles give relic. No hard. Both is a good idea. 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Erathianer
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 16, 2021 01:28 PM |
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what about more lava terrain objects?
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ePlus
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 17, 2021 04:22 AM |
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Edited by ePlus at 06:09, 17 Jun 2021.
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Greetings. I was playing HotA when I thought it might be a cool addition to add a new artifact which I think is fairly balanced and would make for some interesting MP strats: the 'shroud of darkness'
. Slot: cape; category: minor or major
what it essentially is: a moving cover of darkness attached to the hero with a radius equal to the hero's vision range (affected by scouting skill and artifacts. This would make it somewhat viable for covering a frequently used road.
Also, a way to nerf the cloak of the balanced king would be to scrap away giving lvl 2, 3 and 5 units, but instead making the artifact give necromancy the ability to raise bone dragons out of dragon creatures after battle (in addition to its normal function to raise skellies out of non-dragon units). The percentage will depend on necro skill. I think this will balance it a lot since there are not many dragons scattered around the map and even with utopias, the number of bone dragons wouldn't be as insane as what we see now with liches. A further nerf to necromancy might include not being able to get skellies from elementals and mechanical automatons with factory town coming soon (this might have already been proposed)
To buff Eagle Eye, I think showing all enemy hero's spells might be a good addition (on Expert level). I mean, the existing logic is your hero learns the spell when the enemy hero opens the book to cast it, right? Maybe on expert eagle eye you get to see what other spells the enemy has (without learning them, of course). It's like an extra layer of Visions. Basic - 50% to learn the spell; Advanced - 100% to learn the spell; Expert - 100% + see all spells. This ould of course make the artifacts and hero specialists useless, but then maybe combining them all (but still taking only one slot in the inventory for balancing purposes - think of it as a combination artifact that unless combined, the parts have no function) should add to the skill the ability to see all equipped enemy artifacts after starting a battle (without the ones in the backpack), i.e. clothes/armor/sword/helmet/shield/necklace/rings/boots and the five on the left (makes sense since it is literally what the hero is wearing for all to see). It may even show skills (again, after initialising a battle). If you have the combined artifact but not the skill, then it acts as expert eagle eye.
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Krollebolle
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 18, 2021 01:38 PM |
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Improved Penalty System
I have a suggestion for improving the penalty system in hot seat games. I have two use cases to explain the need for this.
1. I play HotA with my colleagues. This is done by setting up a server PC which we log into with RPD, play our turn and pass the turn to the next player. This is a hot seat setup for slow games. We have created a random template that we use for our 6 player games. This is a lot of fun, but the skills and knowledge of the game varies a lot. I always get severe penalty, while the person who won the last game gets mild penalty and then severe for a two in a row win. This allows us to create symmetrical and nice templates without nerfing any areas.
2. I play HotA with my wife in the evenings. We have created a random template with 4 teams, one of which is us. Since the AI is really poor we have nerfed our starting areas and secondary areas A LOT, while improving the AIs starting areas and secondary areas A LOT. This works ok, but the only way to make the game harder is to tweak the template itself. We could possibly use the penalty system as well, but haven’t so far.
Now the penalty system is old and fairly outdated. Mild penalty gives 90 % of the income, meaning 90 % gold and 90 % of the mines. Thus a gold mine provides 900 gold, wood and ore provides 1 each while every other mine gives NO income. The calculated income per turn is basically multiplied by 0.9 and rounded down PER TURN. For severe penalty this factor is 0.7. This is very harsh in my opinion, since it basically makes mines useless for random templates, where you normally have one of each mines in the starting area. Having one of each mine in secondary areas as well makes the map too resource rich and the games become full of high level spells in a few weeks.
To remedy all of this my suggestion is as follows. Instead of having simply 2 settings (well, 3 including no penalty) of 0.9 and 0.7, simply make this a factor to be inserted between 0 and 1, 1 being the default. Then the income can be calculated so that a mine ON AVERAGE produces as the factor says, meaning that a severe penalty today would give 0.7 gems per mine ON AVERAGE. Having a gem pond would then give income as follows:
Day 1 (0.7): 0
Day 2 (1.4): 1
Day 3 (2.1): 1
Day 4 (2.8): 0
Day 5 (3.5): 1
Day 6 (4.2): 1
Day 7 (4.9): 0
Day 8 (5.6): 1
Day 9 (6.3): 1
Day 10 (7.0): 1
So for 10 days you get 7 gems. For a single wood or ore mine this would be:
Day 1 (1.4): 1
Day 2 (2.8): 1
Day 3 (4.2): 2
Day 4 (5.6): 1
Day 5 (7.0): 2
Day 6 (8.4): 1
Day 7 (9.8): 1
Day 8 (11.2): 2
Day 9 (12.6): 1
Day 10 (14.0): 2
So for 10 days you get 14 wood or ore instead of 20.
The same logic can be applied to gold from cities, resources. Now let’s say you have 1 sulfur mine and get another on day 2, otherwise the same as the gems:
Day 1 (0.7): 0
Day 2 (1.4): 1
Day 3 (4.2): 2 (as if you had 2 mines on day 2 (2.8))
Day 4 (5.6): 1
Day 5 (7.0): 2
Day 6 (8.4): 1
Day 7 (9.8): 1
Day 8 (11.2): 2
Day 9 (12.6): 1
Day 10 (14.0): 2
Then you get 13 sulfur for the 10 days. For no penalty this would have been 22.
To generalize: Calculating the income, I, for one resource on day N, and penalty P:
I = floor(N * P * X) - floor((N-1) * P * X)
where X is the income without penalty.
Example 1: X = 4 (e.g. 2 ore mines or 4 sulfur mines), N = 13, P = 0.8
I = floor(13 * 0.8 * 4) - floor(12 * 0.8 * 4) = 41 - 38 = 3
Example 2: X = 5000 (gold), N = 123, P = 0.25
I = floor(123 * 0.25 * 5000) - floor(122 * 0.25 * 5000) = 153750 - 152500 = 1250
Example 3: X = 1 (1 Alchemist’s lab), N = 3, P = 0.3
I = floor(3 * 0.3 * 1) - floor(2 * 0.3 * 1) = 0 - 0 = 0
Example 4: X = 1 (1 Alchemist’s lab), N = 4, P = 0.3
I = floor(4 * 0.3 * 1) - floor(3 * 0.3 * 1) = 1 - 0 = 1
Such a change may or may not affect the format of the save files. If the current penalty system is saved as a float, all is good, otherwise the save file might need changing.
Suggestions for further improvements are welcome. I work as a developer myself, so I suppose I could try implementing this myself if it gets a very low priority (I guess hot seat is low priority).
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted June 19, 2021 09:41 AM |
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Edited by RerryR at 09:42, 19 Jun 2021.
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Nice ideas, but as always it has ZERO percent of being implemented in any HotA update.
My suggestion: You learn how to modify the game by yourself and use this modification to play with your friends.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 19, 2021 02:34 PM |
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Nexious
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 20, 2021 12:45 PM |
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RMG Template Editor
I have some suggestions I really would like to see in the RMG template editor:
1. Able to set monsters in a zone to "never flee". You are able to set monsters with this flag in the regular map editor so why not in the template edtior?
2. Able to adjust how heavily neutral towns in a zone is guarded. Because lets be honest neutral towns created with the RMG are barely guarded.
3. Able to tag a zone with "Grail Location" meaning that the grail will always spawn somewhere in zones with that tag.
4. This point I'm not sure if it is a bug or limitation but zones seems to be "tagged" with a faction no matter if it has a town or not. Atleast when it comes to dwellings because the dwellings of one zone is always from the same faction. So I want an option to make dwellings completly random in a zone so you can see dwellings from multiple factions in the same zone.
I hope some of these is put up for consideration. I would be really happy to see them be implemented 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 21, 2021 09:32 AM |
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At what level of expertise do elementals cast Protection from Earth? Same for Air, Water, Fire?
I coudn't find the info in wiki such as https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Earth_Elemental_and_Magma_Elemental
My guess is all cast at advanced level (which is 50% protection in unmodded H3 but 75% in HotA), but I didn't find any info to confirm it. If it was basic it would only be 30(normal)/50%(HotA) protection.
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 21, 2021 09:51 AM |
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Advanced level.
(I don't understand why HotA changed the percentages though, they made Armageddon spam even easier now.)
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 21, 2021 10:14 AM |
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Thanks.
I think because otherwise these spells are dead slots (unless casting with elementals). The changelog also has armageddon nerf.
https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Horn_of_the_Abyss_(Changelog)#Version_1.5.2
Quote:
[+] The damage of Armageddon spell reduced from 50*SP + 30/30/60/120 to 40*SP + 30/30/60/120
[+] The effect of Protection from Air, Protection from Fire, Protection from Water, and Protection from Earth spells increased from 30/30/50/50% to 50/50/75/75%
[+] Value of antimagic spells has been reduced for AI
And next update:
Quote:
[-] The value of casting element protection spells by upgraded elementals has been decreased for the AI
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 21, 2021 10:25 AM |
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Yeah Armageddon spam still seems a bit too easy imo.
Armageddon nerf =  (I nerfed it even more myself.)
Protection From X spells buffs =  (This encourages cheap Arma spam. I changed them back to how they were before HotA.)
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