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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 29, 2021 09:52 AM |
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Nope, Disrupting Ray can't be removed, not even by death. (Which also makes me question Sea Witches abilities...)
I would say Water is better than Fire though. Fire has Berserk, which is insane and Curse which can be useful. I know Blind and Arma are also Fire, but they does'nt benefit much from Fire Magic.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 29, 2021 10:04 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:14, 29 Jun 2021.
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Phoenix4ever said:
Nope, Disrupting Ray can't be removed, not even by death. (Which also makes me question Sea Witches abilities...)
Really? Well that's weird. I wonder why it was never changed.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 29, 2021 10:24 AM |
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I guess that's what makes Disrupting Ray unique and powerful.
If it was'nt "unremoveable", I would have made it a mass spell at Expert Air Magic.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 29, 2021 10:29 AM |
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 I never knew about Sea Witch. But normal cure can remove all negative spells and curse.
Fire has OP Bloodlust gives +6 attack also other spells. It's more dangerous spell than Bless, when efreet can't get it due to fire shield plus revenge still stronger than genies. An old balance. H4 you can cast bloodlust. But I've never seen player casts bloodlust in the twitch, for example. Then Stronghold must have fire. You know the arma or replace bloodlust from bless.
Ok else I was drunking in the mid-summer festival. Now I'm here.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 29, 2021 10:32 AM |
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Bless is definitely better than Bloodlust.
Bloodlust does'nt affect Fire Immune creatures and ranged units does'nt really benefit from it either. Bless also counters Curse.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 29, 2021 10:40 AM |
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I'm not came a dialog with you  And you should play more fire with. Stronghold has 4 attack, and +6 bonus do total of 10. Such!
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 29, 2021 10:45 AM |
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Okay, you are allowed your opinion, but I don't agree.
I suppose Mass Bloodlust could be good for Stronghold, but I usually pick Air with them, not Fire. Besides Ogre Mages already cast Bloodlust.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2021 11:10 AM |
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MattII said:
Really? Well that's weird. I wonder why it was never changed.
because it has unique mechanic - lowers defense every time you cast and is cumulative. Imagine you spend 40 turns to lower creature defense to zero then a simple dispel or cure ruins that.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 29, 2021 12:02 PM |
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Yes, but why make it cumulative? No other spell in the game is cumulative, so why that one?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2021 12:08 PM |
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Why not.
It is an interesting spell, combined with blind and granted you have enough mana, can do wonders.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 29, 2021 12:17 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Bless is definitely better than Bloodlust.
Bloodlust does'nt affect Fire Immune creatures and ranged units does'nt really benefit from it either. Bless also counters Curse.
Both of those spells are situational. Bless is more useful early on so it has the edge, mostly in allowing you to tackle bigger groups of walkers with your shooters. You won't really see much use for bless outside rather unorthodox scenarios where you can make a powerstack of creatures with high damage range (2-8 or whatnot) and you can squeeze bless in somewhere (there are usually better spells to cast though).
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 29, 2021 01:05 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 13:07, 29 Jun 2021.
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Quote:
Fire has some crazy good spells that can totally change the game (Curse, Berserk, Arma), Water has some mostly meaningless buffs/debuffs.
Nonsense, and tell you why
- Berserk already works with basic fire
- Armageddon + base damage isn't significant, power multiplier is significant
Water Prayer and Bless is much stronger than Bloodlust.
Bloodlust counters nothing, Bless coutners curse and can be used on ranged.
Big Berserk is OP but that's basically the only use of Fire... at all.
Water also has map utility like summon boat and water walk. Fire has *nothing*. Even fire elemental summon is significantly weaker than water elemental summon (another good reason to enable fire elemental to fly :V)
last but not least water has mass Dispel so it can counter any blessings or curses from the enemy in both allies and opponent stacks, while fire can't counter anything and doesn't have defensive magic at all
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Never changing = never improving
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 29, 2021 02:08 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Nonsense
This may help you understand it a bit better:
https://youtu.be/PUkih3eaHj8?t=1664
Berserk's AoE is the main selling point of Fire magic, by the way. It's a huge change and can actually win you games that you'd lose otherwise. Water is just a bit of buffs or debuffs that are 99% of the time not worth spending your time on.
Things like countering curse with bless are mostly meaningless, curse doesn't matter too much in a player vs player fight, you'd rather be worrying about implo or summon elemental.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 29, 2021 10:39 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:55, 29 Jun 2021.
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A sigle OP spell can't be the selling point of an entire skill. You may not even have berserk, then what?
Or guess what, if the enemy is necropolis, or conflux, berserk is completely useless. Basically two entire no-berserk towns. Golems and titans are also immune.
There are also several artifacts that render your units immune to it. "player vs player fight" it is very likely another player will take it, specially if they know you have fire magic.
By the way, on the other side, prayer is not just a "meaningless" buff, it upgrades speed like Haste, so it even makes your turns come faster and your hero magic come faster as well. And unlike bless or curse, it doesn't have any counter-spell. Only way to defeat it is with mass dispel - and this requires the enemy have water magic themselves.
Also, you don't judge the reality of the game in all possible situations. You only judge 1v1 JC creature bank meta. In late games and big maps damage spells are useful, they can't keep up with creature stack HP from weekly growth. Stat boosting is extremely more valuable.
Not to mention water walk if not banned is an extremely useful adventure skill.
And if water walk is banned because of unbalance, then so should berserk. Specially since it is unbalanced according to town type. For some towns is "lose the game" and for others "nothing": not the apex of game design.
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 29, 2021 11:03 PM |
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I guess multiplayers pretend Summon Boat, Scuttle Boat and Water Walk does'nt exist and in that case Water Magic gets less attractive.
But under the right circumstances Summon Boat and Water Walk can be absolutely crucial spells. I even find use for Scuttle Boat sometimes.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2021 11:30 PM |
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"summon boat" is a must for my maps, because dd, fly, and water walk are always banned, and you mostly can't progress without it. but that's just my map-making style.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2021 10:19 AM |
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NimoStar said:
A sigle OP spell can't be the selling point of an entire skill. You may not even have berserk, then what?
But you actually go for fire magic IF you spot berserk in your guild, or see a tome of fire magic somewhere on the map. If you really want it, you may also roll for spells in Hota (There is a feature that allows you to change your spells for a fee in your magic guild, remember?), though rolling for TP and DD takes priority, but you may get berserk along the way.
On most templates you will learn spells from pandora boxes or you may get tomes. From the perspective of current MP meta, getting a specific spell is not that hard. Getting it early, well, that's another thing, but berserk is really a "final battle" kind of spell.
Fire magic is what Luna starts with, and Luna is OP and will always be picked if possible, so berserk is just a bonus for her 
I wouldn't agree that a single OP spell can't be the selling point of a skill. If you can consistently get that spell and it can literally win you a game (like Dimension Door can), why wouldn't you get it?
NimoStar said:
Or guess what, if the enemy is necropolis, or conflux, berserk is completely useless. Basically two entire no-berserk towns. Golems and titans are also immune.
There are also several artifacts that render your units immune to it. "player vs player fight" it is very likely another player will take it, specially if they know you have fire magic.
You know you can see what town your opponent is playing, right? So why would you go for berserk against necro in the first place?
Most people will actually not expect Berserk at all, or expect the single target one. That's how you can caught them off guard. Also, how are they supposed to know you have fire magic?
NimoStar said:
By the way, on the other side, prayer is not just a "meaningless" buff, it upgrades speed like Haste, so it even makes your turns come faster and your hero magic come faster as well. And unlike bless or curse, it doesn't have any counter-spell. Only way to defeat it is with mass dispel - and this requires the enemy have water magic themselves.
You defeat it by casting spells that have a higher impact on the battle. You seem stuck in the 2000s meta here. You know interference was introduced and intelligence nerfed because spamming direct damage spells and summon elemental dominated the late fights, not buffing your troops, right? Why would you waste your time with bless if you can cast something better? Casting prayer is fine, but prayer is literally one of the only reasons to even go for Water Magic in the first place, and compared to other schools, the impact you get from casting expert prayer is usually dwarfed by casting expert berserk, and almost always dwarfed by access to expert slow/TP/rez or DD. View air is also incredibly good and basically worth it alone, knowing exactly where your opponent is gives you a massive tactical advantage and you'll get DD sooner or later which has a ridiculous impact on the game.
Unless you want to end with all magic schools, but that's usually suboptimal.
NimoStar said:
Also, you don't judge the reality of the game in all possible situations. You only judge 1v1 JC creature bank meta. In late games and big maps damage spells are useful, they can't keep up with creature stack HP from weekly growth. Stat boosting is extremely more valuable.
Which is the correct approach because the game devs also take JC and JO as the current meta and balance the game accordingly, see the intelligence nerf which was specifically made to counter the late game mages and elemental spammers.
Look, I didn't make JC popular, I don't even like JC. But that's the name of the game. Pretending it's not a huge (or even the most important) factor will make you draw wrong conclusions, like you do with prayer, which is a nice thing to have, but simply not game defining, which is what Lexiav mentioned in the video I posted. That's entirely correct - why would you bother with Water magic when Earth is a must and Air is so nice to have as 2nd? You may want fire for the curse and berserk route if you have it in your town. You will almost never want Water magic (except for specific tactics like using Eovacius) because it doesn't bring anything that will turn the tables for you.
NimoStar said:
Not to mention water walk if not banned is an extremely useful adventure skill.
But DD is a lot better and you aim for it anyway in JC templates.
NimoStar said:
And if water walk is banned because of unbalance, then so should berserk. Specially since it is unbalanced according to town type. For some towns is "lose the game" and for others "nothing": not the apex of game design.
Water walk is usually "eh", unless you're playing a very specific map with a lot of water. And even there, Fly and DD are simply better. So two things must happen for waterwalk to be viable : 1. fly/dd banned 2. a map with lots of water, which is obviously "out of meta", hence not worth taking into consideration because of how exotic it is.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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LouWeed
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2021 12:10 AM |
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Doomforge said:
Fire magic is what Luna starts with, and Luna is OP and will always be picked if possible, so berserk is just a bonus for her
Ironically, Water Magic (mass amnesia) is usually essential for Luna to clear shooter stacks
I find Air Magic to be the least helpful school of magic if DD and Fly are banned. Expert View Air is great, but any schmuck can cast it, doesn't have to be your main hero
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 01, 2021 04:56 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 04:57, 01 Jul 2021.
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Quote:
a map with lots of water, which is obviously "out of meta", hence not worth taking into consideration because of how exotic it is.
meta isn't a h3 consideration. In default original random map templates, there are three levels of water: None, some, and islands.
In islands, 75% of the map is water.
And anyways, the maps for skirmishes that come with the game also have islands maps and maps with significant water.
Furthermore, it is simply not true that "to be useful dimension door and fly have to be banned". Those are level 5 and thus:
* You need expert wisdom
* They are much more rare
Walk water is only level 4 so you have much higher chance to have it, and don't need expert wisdom.
Furthermore, the comparison was with the *nothing* of fire magic, not with earth and air magic, which everyone knows to be stronger than both fire and water.
So, bringing up air and earth spells about a discussion of fire is entirely out of topic. What is better, water walk or *nothing*?
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Never changing = never improving
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 01, 2021 08:48 AM |
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LouWeed said:
find Air Magic to be the least helpful school of magic if DD and Fly are banned. Expert View Air is great, but any schmuck can cast it, doesn't have to be your main hero
Yes, unless you're playing JO (one hero format), if there is no DD/Fly (DD in particular), air magic is entirely skippable on your main.
However, Dimension Door is just another level of power. You really want it bad ASAP along with expert air magic.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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