Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 198 pages long: 1 20 40 ... 41 42 43 44 45 ... 60 80 100 120 140 160 180 198 · «PREV / NEXT»
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted August 01, 2018 09:24 PM

Learning must be fixed as it is the only skill now that has literally no use. I mean, it is always useless regardless of circumstances.

If you go by the logic that some of the skills should be useless and you can always avoid picking them then just why bother and call it "learning", just go for the dummy skill with black square for a skill icon that has no effect at all.
Sure its possible but whats the point.

The goal should be to do what was done with Scouting, from a very bad skill it morphed into a very valuable skill which is very welcome on any hero, and even OK on the main once all the important skills are acquired.

The only solution I see which is elegant and true to the spirit of the original is to boost the value. Something that would justify spending 3 levels on maxing the skill, triple gathered experience on expert or something like that.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2018 11:43 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:45, 01 Aug 2018.

What about Ballistics skill?, does anyone ever pick that?
Personally I always avoid it, since AI usually charges right out the gate and if not, there are different spells, (for example Earthquake, Teleport and Hypnotize) Cyclops and flying and shooting units anyway. (+Cannon in HotA.)
I'm not much for combining skills, but perhaps it would make sense to combine:
Ballistics + Artillery or Ballistics + First Aid

The skill only does something when attacking a town, meaning most of the time it does nothing.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted August 02, 2018 12:24 AM

stronger town defences more important Ballistics...boost town defences (turrets and moat)...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
sulik
sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted August 02, 2018 01:24 AM

phoenix4ever said:
What about Ballistics skill?, does anyone ever pick that?
Personally I always avoid it, since AI usually charges right out the gate and if not, there are different spells, (for example Earthquake, Teleport and Hypnotize) Cyclops and flying and shooting units anyway. (+Cannon in HotA.)



For small maps, and in the first few months, Ballistics is useful for me. First Aid can be useful, like for 2 first weeks(!). For secondary heroes, skills like Ballistics, First Aids, Mysticism, or Artillery can be quite ok.

I think the approach in Heroes 3 is that skills can be situationally useful. Learning and Eagle Eye are standing out because they are no situation in which they are useful.


To put it into perspective, in other games, for example in some real-time strategy games, some units can be quite useless after the first 15 minutes, but they can be quite formidable in early games. In action games, there are weapons supposed to be used as the last resort like daggers. It's not necessary for all skills to be equally powerful. The balance is needed among factions (which is a mix of units + cost + tech tree + heroes + the land), not among skills.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Hourglass
Hourglass


Supreme Hero
posted August 02, 2018 01:32 AM
Edited by Hourglass at 01:34, 02 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
What about Ballistics skill?, does anyone ever pick that?
Personally I always avoid it, since AI usually charges right out the gate and if not, there are different spells, (for example Earthquake, Teleport and Hypnotize) Cyclops and flying and shooting units anyway. (+Cannon in HotA.)
I'm not much for combining skills, but perhaps it would make sense to combine:
Ballistics + Artillery or Ballistics + First Aid

The skill only does something when attacking a town, meaning most of the time it does nothing.




Well, compared to the discussions we've had earlier this week about the worst secondary skills, I feel that Ballistics is the next one in the line after Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid and Mysticism. However, I think ballistics is overall better than those 4, as it is something that one might want to pick. Sure this would still be rare case.

Ballistics is good if you're up against a Fortress town, as their moat is a real killer for all non-fliers. Taking ballistics against fortess might still not be the correct play, as it's a coin toss to predict that some major battles would happen in the town.

However, more than that, the skill is best for the fortress hero itself. As the town only has a defence oriented shooter and 2 fliers, and let's just say dragon flies aren't the best possible siege unit. Inferno and rampart too both have only 1 shooter and 2 fliers, but they're still undeniably better at siege than fortess. Still, I'm not saying that if you're playing as fortress, you should pick this skill, but just wanted to point this out.

As you said, there are a lot of ways to either breaking the walls or simply just ignoring them altogeter, and this sure is the major flaw of the skill - it really doesn't do anything too unique.

I'm not really sure what should be done with this skill. If we think there should be a place in this game for ballistics, then maybe combining it with something else might be the correct thing to do.
If we see ballistics as too niche, then maybe use the same method I suggest to be done for Eagle Eye: Only Adv. and Expert levels can acquired by leveling up your hero - the basic level cannot. The basic level can only be learned from witch hut's etc. Then, introduce a completely new skill, so the amount of skills learned by leveling your hero stays the same.  This way the skill can be stay as it is, but isn't in the way of hero progression.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 02, 2018 09:01 AM

phe said:
stronger town defences more important Ballistics...boost town defences (turrets and moat)...

You mean more damage for turrets and moat, if you have Ballistics? That way the skill also does something when defending a town, yeah that might be an idea.

@Hourglass Good points mate, like you said  Fortress is not good at sieging a town and it seems to be the only army AI sometimes does'nt open the gate for. Still I wont pick Ballistics as there are many other ways to defeat the enemy.
Artillery also allows to control turrets, so perhaps Ballistics could have another effect as well?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted August 02, 2018 10:42 AM

phoenix4ever said:
phe said:
stronger town defences more important Ballistics...boost town defences (turrets and moat)...

You mean more damage for turrets and moat, if you have Ballistics? That way the skill also does something when defending a town, yeah that might be an idea.


more damage done by turrets and moats regardless Ballistics...if you have Ballistics you will destroy turrets quicker getting less damage...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 02, 2018 10:10 PM

About Ballistics just watch RoseCavalier's thread on Metataxer's Revenge. It's situational but in custom maps it has his uses. I don't pick it in random maps, either but AI seems to like it and it can be painful, if you based your defense on shooters and turrets and he opens a path immediately.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 02, 2018 10:32 PM

Yeah AI needs Ballistics desperately and it usually also have it, but I never pick it.
I guess it's most the 4 heroes that start with Ballistics that annoy me, I wanna change their Ballistics to something else.
Now Artillery at least does something when attacking AND defending a town, but Ballistics is only for attacking towns and as long as AI keep charging out the gate, it does'nt really help anyway.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 03, 2018 04:39 AM

Actually I think automated town defenses should scale with a script to be fixed number + % of oppossing army total HP.

That way towers have an utility in late game and aren't a decorative time waste ("yeah you killed one of my 1000 black dragons after 6 turns, big deal")
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Hourglass
Hourglass


Supreme Hero
posted August 05, 2018 01:34 AM

The balance between might and magic heroes has always been an issue for me. If might and magic were more equally balaced, I think more heroes could be considered good and there would be more ways of building your heroes. In general, we could have more richer and possibly tactical gameplay than we have now.

It's often noted than the downfall of all magic heroes is simply that might heroes have better stat distribution than magic heroes, but that's not all.

Magic heroes also suffer from bad selection of secondary skills, since they are more likely to be offered some bottom tier skills such as mysticism and eagle eye.

But I would dare to say that even that isn't really their biggest flaw.

Simply put, as you can only cast one spell per round, and in most battles, the buff and debuff spells are the way to go. In those situatiations, magic heroes don't get any advantage by having a huge pile of spellpower, as might heroes have more than enough time to finish the battle before their spells start to run out of duration.
I think this is real reason why magic heroes are bad - their whole identity and battle plan rely on casting spells, but who cares, if they simply have no time to cast them?

-----

So I present an idea; add a spell like this to the game:

Ignite lvl 3 spell fire spell (Could be a level 3-4) Cost 20 mana.

Target, enemy creature receives (10 + (power x 40)) damage. Can be cast alongside any other spell.

So, you could cast Ignite as an extra spell once per round. Perhaps first cast slow on your enemies, then strike with this spell. The numbers may not align at all, but the general idea is this: Fire spell that can be cast alongside any other spell. Surprisinly cost heavy spell, so it wouldn't be easily spammable for a might hero.
The spell would get majority of it's power from the spellcaster's spellpower. However, taking fire magic secondary skill would as give a significant boost to that spell's power.
The player can choose to cast this as his first or second spell, it would not matter. The player can cast two Ignites, but it should usually be more resource-wise to cast something like Lightning bolt + Ignite.

This change alone would make Magic heroes better, as they would suddenly have more dmg available per round. Making the spell heavily taking it's power from spellpower + adding a expensive mana cost would mean that might heroes would not be able to use as well as their counterparts. Note that this would also be a buff for Fire magic and even for Sorcery.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 05, 2018 12:19 PM

magic heroes are fine. say Loynis, Dessa, Gundula, Adela, Solmyr, Deemer etc - all have their useful specialties + all Conflux magic heroes are strong

if you wanna get an upper hand in end game versus your might counterpart, get a HotA exclusive - Cape of Silence. now you might think, "why didn't i think of that before", right?

and so people should quit trying to make this game what it is not

Might AND Magic, not Magic and Might

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 05, 2018 01:04 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:06, 05 Aug 2018.

I'm not saying which is better might or magic hero. In most cases I would probably say might hero, but being able to deal 5-8k with Implosion, which does'nt care if it hits a legion of Peasants or a pack of Azure Dragons is something. They are also better at resurrecting/animating/sacrificing and summoning elementals. (Assuming they are allowed to cast these spells, for the might hero and that is probably the biggest problem, being a magic hero.)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 05, 2018 05:57 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 17:58, 05 Aug 2018.

might or magic is only important in the beginning stages of the game. later on it's not that important, cause both parties already have everything. might has the spells, and magic has the combat skills. the difference remains in just a little bit of stat points, depending on hero class, which usually is insignificant, when we're talking about stats that goes into 30-ies. so in the end it all comes down to army / specialties / artifacts, and player skill ofcourse

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted August 05, 2018 06:13 PM

Lth3 said:
might or magic is only important in the beginning stages of the game. later on it's not that important, cause both parties already have everything. might has the spells, and magic has the combat skills. the difference remains in just a little bit of stat points, depending on hero class, which usually is insignificant, when we're talking about stats that goes into 30-ies. so in the end it all comes down to army / specialties / artifacts, and player skill ofcourse


That is something that, imho, has to go. All later iterations of Heroes of Might and Magic improved this dichotomy. Restricting access to secondary skills or limiting access to its higher levels & getting rid of the post level 10 primary skill scaling could greatly put the game on this track.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 05, 2018 06:20 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:22, 05 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
but being able to deal 5-8k with Implosion, which does'nt care if it hits a legion of Peasants or a pack of Azure Dragons is something.


You consider such things as having Implosion as naturally acquired, which is not. On the other side, a might hero WILL get natural fighting skills proposed, then more attack/defense at level up, so each of his stacks will deal tons of extra damage than the magic hero. By your logic, if a magic hero can deal 5-8k implosion damage that means we're late game when armies are HUGE.

That's the main problem with magic hero: spells are NOT proposed on level up, it still depends on randomness so there are good chances they get pants down.

In game's current state, magic heroes are good only the first week. They have book (500g), MORE mana, so they can eliminate any of the might scouts, and thats a huge hit to your opponent exploration ability. They can also be used as hit&runners and thats all.

Now, if you only look from the human vs AI perspective, the yes, magic heroes are good, all heroes are good. Even Geon can become a god vs any random map AI.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 05, 2018 06:35 PM

No actually I agree with you, getting Implosion in the first place is not that easy, but a might hero is not guaranteed to get Haste/Slow and expert Earth/Air either. Magic heroes will usually also master Wisdom and magic schools before might heroes. And they won't run out of mana as fast.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted August 05, 2018 10:43 PM

Salamandre said:
In game's current state, magic heroes are good only the first week. They have book (500g), MORE mana, so they can eliminate any of the might scouts, and thats a huge hit to your opponent exploration ability. They can also be used as hit&runners and thats all.


certainly not just 1st week. 2-3 week at least. Solmyr is god on 2nd week, and easily keeps his potential later on. so does Luna and Grindan, though they are More PVE based - but that does not keep them from dealing decent blows

and others, like Dessa, Gundula, Adela keep their potential up until late game - considering we manage to get a decent skill tree on them

so no need to WOGify the magic heroes yet

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 05, 2018 11:18 PM

Yes, that why I meant when I told they can be used as hit&runners. Solmyr is great at that. Bad news though, such tactic is banned in all pvp. Luna is good only on paper, without spirit of oppression she will be eaten alive by mobs in early game. All videos we see about her are staged.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 06, 2018 05:00 AM

phoenix4ever said:
a might hero is not guaranteed to get Haste/Slow

Are you sure? Cause with the many shrines of level 1 I find in my starting area my main problem is to get a guy with scholar soon enough so that all the magic heroes I'm using to scout can pass their findings before I have to dismiss them.
It is harder to have Implosion or Chain Lightning at the end of the match then Slow and Haste when you finally buy a spellbook for your main.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This Popular Thread is 198 pages long: 1 20 40 ... 41 42 43 44 45 ... 60 80 100 120 140 160 180 198 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.2154 seconds