Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 53 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 46 47 48 49 50 ... 53 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 09:19 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 21:20, 01 Oct 2018.

both Orb and Cloak were removed in HotA multiplayer. Orb of Vulnerability is the only solution

as for GDs, i agree and made suggestion a while ago, to include them for all magic resistance, same as BDs. it's only fair

even with old Resistance mechanics, 20% for Resistance is not much chances. maybe if you also have Unicorns nearby and some additional artifacts, you can try to hope for a miracle. but again, is it a decent strategy to rely on hope in Heroes 3

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 01, 2018 09:29 PM

Lth3 said:
as for GDs, i agree and made suggestion a while ago, to include them for all magic resistance, same as BDs. it's only fair

Absolutely agree, it's only fair.
20% Magic Resistance is a low chance, but maybe the opponent will think twice if he actually want to risk wasting a turn blasting Gold Dragons, if he could have casted Mass Haste/Prayer, Resurrect, Clone or something else he is actually sure will work.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 09:54 PM

Cast magic mirror to Gold Dragons and keep it with Unicorns. Problem is solved.

I would not like to see Gold Dragons having full magic immunity. But better to remove mage guild requirements for dragons.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 01, 2018 09:58 PM

LOL Magic Mirror, one of the most useless spells in the game, it helps I made it a mass spell at expert Air Magic, still not great though.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 10:05 PM

Magic mirror would be great for high level creatures (besides Gold Dragons) if it was a lvl 3 spell.

Anti-Magic provides full immunity but alto it prevent creatures to get resurrect.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 01, 2018 10:13 PM

phoenix4ever said:
LOL Magic Mirror, one of the most useless spells in the game, it helps I made it a mass spell at expert Air Magic, still not great though.


In wog is one of the toughest spells to beat, because it is automatically applied to high level monsters. I think they should not have set it as spell to cast, but applied, like fire shield. And then it rocks.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 02, 2018 05:42 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:46, 02 Oct 2018.

If you are suppossed to use Magic Mirror anyways, then why have magic resistance at all? It only shows how useless it is.

BTW they have negative synergy, since the spell you will be reflecting with magic mirror would have lower power...

So, it still makes the new Resistance suck. Even more.

The point with it is to make the opponent waste his spell and thus his whole spell points and hero turn, which even as a chance is still better than just "cast with diminished power".

Plus it stacks very positively with artifacts and specialization and with dwarves which already have a base chance, whereas the "diminish spell power" resistance will still suck...


***

As gold dragons, has the bug of them not being able to be revived with Sacrifice get solved?

After all it is a 5th level spell.
____________
Discover H4 Greatest Mod!
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod/downloads
(Also biggest of only two 2 mods for HOMM IV)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 02, 2018 08:03 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:39, 02 Oct 2018.

@Nimostar
Agree with you on the first part.
There is no Sacrifice bug though. Sacrifice is a 2 part spell, the Sacrifice part (a level 5) and a Resurrect part, (level 4) so it makes sense you can sacrifice them, but not resurrect them.
One more thing about Gold Dragons, they can be affected by Ghost Dragons ageing, but there is no way to cure them! (Unless you have Orb Of Vulnerability) At least Dispel can remove ageing, but if you have expert Water Magic, mass Dispel is not always what you want.
Another argument for making them completely immune to spells (and effects) like Black Dragons.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Orrinisthebest
Orrinisthebest


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2018 12:05 PM

I think with several legit points made in threads, there is no doubt left that new resistance was a failure and as to make up for it team,as i wish, hopefully will apply golem-like resistance in new updates ( which like old resistance, can't be determined without action).
As to how much (getting) gold dragons suck compared to other tier 7-s, notice how painful it is to build them while you can get much better alternatives easier( Archangels,Archdevils). I picked the word "painful" because in PvP building tier 7 on 1st week gives so much advantage and it is ridiculous that i can get much better units ( birds,angels,devils) with bigger amount on the start of 2nd week. Again, im against changing core elements too but there seems to be an imbalance,either regarding building order or availability of some powerful artifacts..

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2018 03:03 PM
Edited by Otuken at 15:04, 02 Oct 2018.

phoenix4ever said:


Another argument for making them completely immune to spells (and effects) like Black Dragons.



No, It wouldn't be great. Rampart is already very good town. Very good mix of slow tanky troops and fast flyers plus aweseome shooter also it is one of the chepeast town. These magic vulnerabilities of Gold dragon makes Rampart balanced. Gold dragon should remain inferior version of Black Dragon.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 02, 2018 03:24 PM

Rampart is an average town imo.
Maybe, but then this new Resistance mechanic needs to be thrown into the trashcan. They only did it to make a more predictable (and boring) gameplay for multiplayer and ignored Rampart completely.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2018 03:56 PM

These are stats of top-5 players by town. After simple arithmetical actions we can see this:



And if we exclude Kamukag3e, Rampart becomes top in PvP matches.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 02, 2018 04:09 PM

I guess this is for SOD, since Necropolis and Conflux are nowhere to be found.
HotA is different from SOD though, a lot of different town balancing.
Damn everyone plays OP Castle and very few plays Inferno and Fortress, not surprising really. I still love Inferno and Fortress and Inferno is very strong in HotA.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 02, 2018 05:35 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 17:51, 02 Oct 2018.

Orrinisthebest said:
As to how much (getting) gold dragons suck compared to other tier 7-s, notice how painful it is to build them while you can get much better alternatives easier( Archangels,Archdevils).

And you are letting behind the fact that Archangels, Titans and Phoenix can stack with creatures from banks while dragons can't. I love the new creature banks but this imbalance grows exponentially with them, even if it was already there in SoD.

phoenix4ever said:
Inferno is very strong in HotA.

Nope, the new banks somehow nerfed Inferno, it was stronger in SoD. Just think you can have Behemoths day 3 and dozens of cyclops while there is no way of getting a single extra creature for Inferno. A bad intended suggestion, why not create a bank giving Pit Fiends that spawns only in lava or, even better since Inferno can appear in the underground and lava can be the terrain for treasure areas, spawns only near Inferno towns.

BTW, what's the reason why I'm finding so many dwellings of that terrain creatures different from any nearby towns? Examples: dwarfs and centaurs in grass in grass or gnolls in Swamp and, in particular, all necropolis dwellings in the underground.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 02, 2018 05:45 PM

Because you are talking about old-fashioned style of multiplayer games. In modern style, starting fraction doesn't really matter. Look at the final of big polish Heroes 3 championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfnlwbDjj4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVtP0xeQsGs

In such dynamic, quick and quite aggresive style - all HotA changes seems to be very balanced.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 02, 2018 06:14 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:38, 02 Oct 2018.

bloodsucker said:
Nope, the new banks somehow nerfed Inferno, it was stronger in SoD. Just think you can have Behemoths day 3 and dozens of cyclops while there is no way of getting a single extra creature for Inferno. A bad intended suggestion, why not create a bank giving Pit Fiends that spawns only in lava or, even better since Inferno can appear in the underground and lava can be the terrain for treasure areas, spawns only near Inferno towns.

What about Arch Devils giving -2 to enemy luck, (I get unlucky attacks very often, when facing them) Pit Lords being easier to build and Magogs not having to worry about hitting their allies anymore? (AI can also use Berserk now and Berserk and Fire Magic is not uncommon to Inferno.)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2018 06:14 PM

The following post is not an invitation for an extensive discussion, but rather an updated description of our stance on the issue, that includes all the substantial arguments we've heard on it over the time since release. You may address specific points of this post if you choose so, but the team members are not likely to find time and mental resources to answer any further objections or extensive questions.


It is not planned to revert changes of the magic resistance. As one can see in the games on streams, the new one works well, it doesn't really spoil the games and players sometimes select it on level ups (subjectively more often than the old one), so it haven't become less useful. It also reduces the crazy effectiveness of damage, resurrection and summon elemental spells that has risen after banning Orb of Inhibition and Recanter Cloak and prevents final battles from transforming into a single roll of the dice. So, it seems to solve or reduce the problems that were the reason of this change.

Still, it is planned to add a new skill for new resistance with new name and image, and keep an old resistance disabled by default (but possible to make enabled). Currently it is possible to revert change in HotA launcher.


There are several arguments against new magic resistance that are worthy of consideration.

1. New resistance effect matches the name and the image of the skill worse than original one.

That is true. I would say that the original skill effect matches its image and name perfectly, while the new one matches it moderately (I think, still its image is not a worse match than e.g. leadership image; also I want to note that resistance artifacts names and images better match new resistance effect).

It is planned to add a new skill for the new resistance with better matching name and image. This new skill will be enabled by default, while the original resistance disabled.

2. New resistance is not random.

In some cases randomness is good for the game, in some it is not. The randomness of resistance is devastating for online games as it is too often transforms the final battle into the pure roll of the dice. In SoD the magic usually wasn't used in final battle at all (due to Orb of Inhibition and Recanter Cloak), and the resistance was just another useless skill. In HotA magic (specially damage magic, resurrection and summon elementals) has huge impact on the final battle, and the single block of the damage spell easily changes the battle result.

It is true that random resistance is fun for singleplayer and some kinds of other games (still, its effect against AI is rather weak and I wouldn't say it adds really huge amount of fun; also the resistance of Dwarves and Unicorns wasn't changed, so the random resistance sometimes works in game even after changing the skill). Old resistance also allows creating interesting battles on custom maps.

This problem also will be solved by adding new skill. Although the default gameplay will have only the skill with the effect of the new resistance, it will be possible to enable old resistance on map/template. And currently, while the new skill is not still added, it can be enabled in HotA launcher.

3. New resistance is weaker/worse because it doesn't affect mass slow and other imbalanced mass spells.

Mass slow is only imbalanced vs monsters on map that don't have resistance anyway. Against actual players it is simply one good spell, that can be countered in many ways including mass-haste, which counters it so drastically that casting mass-slow as the first action in battle became a notorious newbie move. The game practice after disabling Orb of Inhibition and Recanter Cloak shows that in the final battle damage, resurrection and summon elemental spells are much more impactful in terms of outcome. New resistance influences all of them, while the old one only damage spells. Thus the new resistance is most probably even stronger than the old one (and experienced players on streams sometimes select it on level ups).

I also want to note that old resistance effect is completely removed by Orb of Vulnerability, that is a big weakness of this skill. The new one is not removed.

Still, spells like mass slow are somewhat problematic for the game and that should be solved some way (it will be just another way, that doesn't involves magic resistance).

4. The new resistance is the change of original game core mechanics.

Although this problem will be reduced by adding new skill, this is true. Unfortunately, it is impossible to reach good balance without changing some core things in the game. We've made a choice to make balance changes anyway, although sometimes it necessitate controversial changes. Still we will try to reduce the number of such changes. The original resistance seem a very important problem of the game balance to us, and it worth deep change.



I will also comment some arguments against the new resistance that doesn't seem valid for me.

1. The new resistance is weaker than old one because it doesn't affect creature spells and works only against hero.

Most of creature spells are applied with 20% probability. The resistance changes it to 16%. It is very minor effect.

In case of Fairy Dragons, the old resistance doesn't work at all for Magic Arrow, Lighting Bolt, Ice Bolt and the first damage (that is the largest) of Chain Lightning. It works on Fireball, Ice Ring, Inferno, Meteor Shower and secondary damages of Chain Lightning. In case of Enchanters the old resistance works only on hostile spells.

Anyway, the battle against Fairy Dragons and Enchanters are rather rare, and the situation when the old resistance is useful against creatures is rare too, much more rare than battles with enemy hero.

The practice also proves it, players on streams picked old resistance only for final battle. No one hoped it would be useful in battle with monsters.

2. The new resistance is unfair for Gold Dragons.

It is the most weird argument in the whole discussion. Both old and new resistance protect Gold Dragons from Implosion spell in different ways but on average the new resistance is a bit more effective (because it is 30% instead of 20%, and if the spell power is 6 and more, this results in not less than 20% damage reduction). If you are playing against AI, it evaluates 20% of old resistance as 20% damage reductions, so in case it wouldn't cast Implosion on Gold Dragons with old resistance, it won't also cast it with new resistance.

On the other hand the new resistance reduces the opponent's ability to resurrect his own troops and that is in a way a form of compensation for the fact that you cannot resurrect your own Gold Dragon. Opponent can kill your dragons without magic and keep resurrecting his troops while you cannot do the same with your dragons. The old resistance doesn't help in this situation at all, while the new one at least reduces enemy resurrection capabilities.

Even if the new resistance would make Gold Dragons weaker (and in all practice it does not) it would not be something really bad. Rampart troops are currently the strongest (as well as Rampart has the best magic guild spell chances; and Kyrre one of the strongest heroes in the game), and Gold Dragons are very fast and immune to Armageddon that allows using just 1 Gold Dragon to kill tons of the monsters on map (and even sometimes on enemy player hero).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 02, 2018 06:32 PM

Thanks Sav for the long post addressing many of the concerns me and other players have.
I don't wanna comment on everything, I'm just gonna say I disagree about what you posted about Gold Dragons, you are forgetting the psychological aspect of Implosion actually having a chance to fail and thereby waste a heroes spell that turn.
I don't like the new Resistance skill and I'm never going to play with it. I'm happy it can be turned off and the old Resistance enabled instead, that's a good solution.
I guess multiplayers will be happy with more predictable gameplay though.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 02, 2018 07:08 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 21:28, 02 Oct 2018.

Thanks, Sav. I've played some random maps with the new Resistance where I met Thorgrim and I don't feel it neither better or worst. Now I don't have to fear the Silver Pegasi avoiding Slow but I have to cast Blind so often I can't spend many turns casting Disrupting Ray. Of course, I still think it affected some custom maps, including mine, but that is a minor problem if the mapmaker bothers to actualize it or if someone else makes an actualized version of an "abandoned" map.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted October 02, 2018 07:30 PM
Edited by Djangoo at 19:46, 02 Oct 2018.

I have another one: new Resistance is OP on Thorgrim. (60%@lvl 20, bye mages)

On more serious note & maybe unpopular opinion:

might Stronghold & Fortress get a lvl 4 Magic School if the magic rework goes live?

I feel these towns offer not enough to not get a lvl 4 magic school.

Yes they had the most op heroes in vanilla, early access to lvl 6/7 units and can upgrade the wyvern/cylops from creature banks easily but thats about it.

Not having access to the best spells in the game hurts these factions a lot.

I guess the original design decision with these towns was to give them a strong early game and therefore no access to magic school lvl 4, but I think this attempt at balancing failed. I like playing them, but these towns are  an inferior choice and would still be perfectly balanced with magic school 4 and more fun to play.

Sav said:

Still, it is planned to add a new skill for new resistance with new name and image, and keep an old resistance disabled by default (but possible to make enabled). .




 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 53 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 46 47 48 49 50 ... 53 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0556 seconds