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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 07:23 PM |
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One of my annoyances with how Templates work is that mines are mostly useless. The reason is that the resources that are free around mine are so plenty that it's more than enough that satisfy the needs for those resources.
It would be nice to be able to disable either in template or options the free resources that are placed with mines.
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 11:42 PM |
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Edited by Tapani at 23:46, 05 Apr 2019.
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revolut1oN,
thank you a lot for trying to explain to me. I have followed your suggestion and watched some people play heroes in tournaments.
We are from different planets. I am sure what you say is correct in your 'universe', but what I say also applies in mine.
My experience from at least two other games than heroes3, is that the online/tournament community typically is far less than 10% of the total players. Typically a vast majority play for their own pleasure, without entering tournaments. (Can give the facts I base that on, if you want).
Try not to assume an online tournament is all there is, and all that matters. There are other reasons to play than competition. Relaxation. Enjoyment of building up a level 30+ hero. And there 'balance' matters less.
revolut1oN said:
Any template gives you easily thousand+ of skeletons week 3 with SoD necromancy, even relatively poor one like H3DM1 or 6lm. What you need is proper chaining and positioning + prioritizing banks like Imp Caches which easily give 100+ skeletons per bank, also Necro Amp + more than 1 necro hero.
I created almost a dozen maps based on those templates you mentioned, and poor is not the word I would use. :-)
Can send you some template we play on, and maybe you re-evaluate what might be called a poor start area 
revolut1oN said:
Please watch some pro gameplay and then judge.
I followed your advice, and did watch maybe six games (so far). They were over before end of week two!
That is, there was ONE dwelling. One. That is in my opinion ridiculous, and not the game I am (or want to be) playing. Also I am saddened if that environment is what decides the changes in the game, because it is imo a very twisted one.
revolut1oN said:
Mephala is useless. Tazar/Hack/Gundula on the other hand can be very strong, but their specialty starts to shine at level 10 or more.
Armorer specialty is superior to offense specialty in a fight, given everything else the same (skills etc) and hero levels high enough. That is not an opinion. It is a matter of math (did the calculations almost 20 years ago).
revolut1oN said:
Also, nobody in serious multiplayers wait for few months to accumulate stacks of 100+ level 7. When 2 decent players clash games rarely go over week 4 even on very poor XL maps.
And if someone would want a looong game, they would not get one online - and instead play the computer or their buddies. There is a selection bias.
revolut1oN said:
Previous resistance was a joke as it was completely imbalanced. Imagine beating your opponent and besting him by using your skill and superior army and then your implosion misses because of his 30% random resist, and his implosion goes through completely ignoring your resist and thus wrecking your army. No skill, just pure luck.
I now understand why they wanted to change resistance. Thank you.
In my experience implosion is not often used in a final fight. It might do some 4k damage, but a clone can easily do 10k. Again, it depends on how you play. I understand that it might be used in a two-week skirmish.
revolut1oN said:
While I'm answering your question in detail you make crazy points trying to convince me I"m wrong.
Thank you for answering, and I never said you were wrong. And crazy was uncalled for.
But I did think you only considered your way of playing as the only 'right' way. Believing that is all there is and anyone not playing it that way as somehow inferior, or uneducated.
Again, I can send you a template ... it is a different world.
revolut1oN said:
Conflux is one of the strongest on all kind of maps. Easily every hero with DD and TP thanks to University, initiative and strong heroes like Luna or Grindan.
Not to forget phoenixes! Double dwelling, speed 21, resurrects, immune to fire and quite cheap!
revolut1oN said:
I hope this rather lengthy answer can dispel your doubts. These points could have been easily overlooked by someone playing only with friends and avoiding high level competition. If you are still curious, feel free to ask.
The resistance is at high levels here :-)
At least hopefully we agree that a seven-month game is a different animal than a two week game. And then perhaps my point of view is more understandable.
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2019 11:49 PM |
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Djangoo said:
lel
Agree. I deserved that :-)
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted April 06, 2019 01:23 AM |
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Tapani said:
The warehouses give 6/w for noble resources, where mines are 7/w. The wood and ore warehouses give 10/w for wood and ore (mines are 14/w). The gold warehouse gives 2k/w - equivalent of two waterwheels.
From a mapmaker's (or template maker's) perspective: these items do not add much new to the toolbox.
What I wished for was: make the warehouses distinguishable objects that differs from the existing ones (not just provide two ways to do the same thing). Hence the suggestion of slightly nerfing them (to give more fine grained control of the resource acquisition), and perhaps add a random element to it. Resource specific windmills if you like.
After brushing up on how Warehouses function I see what you mean. I just had a new idea pop into my head while reading your reply;
 What if Warehouses are changed to be a flagged building (you have to capture it). And once you have flagged it, it gives you a bonus. Like maybe it doubles that resource income for all mines you have flagged. So say you have 4 Alchemist Labs (Mercury) flagged. That is 4 Mercury a day. Now you go and flag the Warehouse of Mercury, that doubles the production of all your flagged Alchemist Labs. So now you are gaining 8 Mercury a day, not 4. Making the Warehouse a more valuable and sought after location; especially on maps were resources are very scarce.
Tapani said:
So for 20% instead of 15% sorcery damage, you would start consider selecting sorcery with your main hero?
That is how I thought about mysticism as well: what would it take for me to consider mysticism on my main hero. And to be honest, even at 100% I probably would try to prioritize other skills. Magic wells are quite common anyway.
I usually pick up Sorcery at some point for magic heroes, but usually near the end. So maybe a small tweak to it and I might start picking it earlier. As for Mysticism, I suppose the argument for it is how to make it more relevant, when Magic Wells and Springs are usually quite common on all maps.
Erathianer said:
look at a swordsman, how much hp does he have, 35? ok he is a well trained soldier with armor but compare this to the peasents. they are also human beings with 1 hp lol! giving peasants 2 hp instead of 1 hp is kind of a big change for them. it means doubling the hp, which means that only the half of peasants would die from attacks than before. also dmg could be 1-2.
You are comparing a Level 4 creature to a Level 1, so that does not really help your argument. Level 4 does not equal Level 1. You have to compare Peasants to other level 1 creatures. As for Swordmans hp being 35 it makes sense. Well trained warrior with armor, vs an untrained person wearing rags. And sure you could bump Peasants hp up to 2, doubling it. But why?? What use do Peasants have other than fodder for the Skeleton Transformer?
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 08:36 AM |
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Oddball13579 said:
After brushing up on how Warehouses function I see what you mean. I just had a new idea pop into my head while reading your reply;
What if Warehouses are changed to be a flagged building (you have to capture it). And once you have flagged it, it gives you a bonus. Like maybe it doubles that resource income for all mines you have flagged.
Very scarce means to me that you have no mines. Then what?
After discussing the modern competition scane with revolut1on, I might understand (but not agree with!) the point of warehouses the way they are.
* The competition scene loves quick games, often lasting less than two weeks (say a game can last maybe ten days).
* With warehouses you get your resources in advance. In a competition there is no time to wait for resources to tick in, as you have to do with mines.
* Warehouses reduces the random factor of when you find the mine. It might be considered imba if one finds their resource turn 2 and the other player turn 4.
While I start to understand the type of play HotA team is aiming at, it does not mean I agree with it. In fact I completely disagree and detest it.
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 12:29 PM |
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Btw I want to add that I played competitive and sometimes do, and ive played against people that stream and people with reputation over the years and won my fair share of games.
I wouldn't say its short games, but I will say the standard liked system in competitive scene is nothing like the game most people actually like or play heroes. It's a completly different beast.
I don't know how it happend, by the time i joined the competitive scene in 2002, IT WAS ALREADY LIKE THIS.
It wasn't as bad though, it did only become "worse" over time.
Most people get their impression from STandard maps, and a lto of peopel that play with RNG templates play with computers. And if you ask me is a lot better game than what's current played in competitive heroes. I only play competitive heroes because I have a strong bias toward playing competitive level in games.
I agree comparing competitive heroes and the heroes that most people play is apples and helicopters. There are different beasts, and I had the same probelm back in 2002..
In my group of friends we still ocassionally play heroes, and play a metagame that looks nothing like the competitive scene.
Fwiw, if hota ever makes a magic rework system, I think I will make public my own templates and try to push a competitive metagame that resembles more the heroes that most people like.
The reason I don't is that i basically stopped playing heroes because the magic system frustrates mes.
But the point of this post is to remind that people in the competitive scene often do this, they talk about heroes like if everybody play heroes like hte competitive community does, wpretending that is the common, standard way to play heroes, when instead is the fringe, rare and unusual way to play it.
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 12:36 PM |
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Another Suggestion
Here is a Feature i implemetned in my version of Heroes WOG that I used to help new players that I think it would be good to see in hota to help new players, Yes I've introduced new players to the game over the years and this following feature helps a lot.
IN my mod, you can CTRL CLICK an army or wandering moster, to get spelled the total value in gold of that army.
Its' exact if its yours (because you know the contents) or you are given the range if it's enemy or a wandering monster. (because you only know a range).
This helps new players A LOT because the most common frustration I get from new players is that they have no idea how their army matches that wandering monster or opponent army.
Even for experienced players like me, being able to figure out opponent army value in a click instead of doing the math in my head is a relief.
IS a feature that is easily implemented and may help with the introduction of new players.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 02:12 PM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 14:13, 06 Apr 2019.
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i guess the most important distinction between a casual and a pro is that pros don't pretend, whereas casuals rely a lot on emotional satisfaction from the game. it's a lot like cosplay, where you dress up as batman. but the fact is you are not batman
Tapani said:
And if someone would want a looong game, they would not get one online - and instead play the computer or their buddies. There is a selection bias.
how would you accomplish this? only way i see is to ban Fly/DD and put hordes of strong lvl 7 creatures between zones of each player
otherwise it's just pretending. if you can get a win in 1 month why waste 7?
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 04:46 PM |
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Lth3 said:
i guess the most important distinction between a casual and a pro is that pros don't pretend, whereas casuals rely a lot on emotional satisfaction from the game. it's a lot like cosplay, where you dress up as batman. but the fact is you are not batman
Tapani said:
And if someone would want a looong game, they would not get one online - and instead play the computer or their buddies. There is a selection bias.
how would you accomplish this? only way i see is to ban Fly/DD and put hordes of strong lvl 7 creatures between zones of each player
otherwise it's just pretending. if you can get a win in 1 month why waste 7?
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45690
I answerd your post in a new thread because i think this is offtopic.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 06, 2019 07:34 PM |
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I know I have asked for this before, but please "teach AI" to build ALL buildings in towns!
AI does'nt seem very focused with defending it's towns, so that it does'nt build Mana Vortex, Portal of Summoning, Brotherhood of the Sword, Fountain of Fortune and Brimstone Stormclouds kinda makes sense, but that it does'nt build Lighthouse is really bad for AI Castles. (only on maps with water of course.)
I don't know if it knows "how to handle" Freelancer's Guild, Thieves' Guild and Grotto, but it does'nt build them either.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted April 06, 2019 09:08 PM |
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Tapani said:
Very scarce means to me that you have no mines. Then what?
After discussing the modern competition scane with revolut1on, I might understand (but not agree with!) the point of warehouses the way they are.
* The competition scene loves quick games, often lasting less than two weeks (say a game can last maybe ten days).
* With warehouses you get your resources in advance. In a competition there is no time to wait for resources to tick in, as you have to do with mines.
* Warehouses reduces the random factor of when you find the mine. It might be considered imba if one finds their resource turn 2 and the other player turn 4.
While I start to understand the type of play HotA team is aiming at, it does not mean I agree with it. In fact I completely disagree and detest it.
I see I see. I don't really play online HotA, so I don't know what the games are like. I did not realize that the Warehouses were balanced for quick, online matches. With the way they are I guess their purpose does suit the online competitive scene. Also when I said very scarce I meant that you had only 1-2 mines of each resource.
Pollo2002 said:
IN my mod, you can CTRL CLICK an army or wandering moster, to get spelled the total value in gold of that army.
Its' exact if its yours (because you know the contents) or you are given the range if it's enemy or a wandering monster. (because you only know a range).
This helps new players A LOT because the most common frustration I get from new players is that they have no idea how their army matches that wandering monster or opponent army.
Even for experienced players like me, being able to figure out opponent army value in a click instead of doing the math in my head is a relief.
But isn't that the learning curve of the game? Learning to recognize units, and how strong they are by trial and error. Plus, I don't think I have ever used gold amount to compare how strong my army is vs an opposing army or wandering stack. Seems a little odd to use gold. Plus HotA did add numbers to wandering stacks. For instance, the game tells you the strength of the stack, and the range of said stack, Pack(10–19), Horde (50–99) etc. This is how I learned to play. Learning what Pack, Horde, Legion, etc all meant.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2019 09:54 PM |
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Tapani said:
revolut1oN,
thank you a lot for trying to explain to me. I have followed your suggestion and watched some people play heroes in tournaments.
No problem bro. Of course there is no right or wrong way to play the game, just enjoy it the way you like.
I just wanted to say that if we are to adjust balance, then we should do it from a high level competitive gameplay perspective as it gives the most profound answer to the eternal quest for seeking a perfectly calibrated, fair and enjoyable multiplayer experience.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 07, 2019 07:37 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I know I have asked for this before, but please "teach AI" to build ALL buildings in towns!
AI does'nt seem very focused with defending it's towns, so that it does'nt build Mana Vortex, Portal of Summoning, Brotherhood of the Sword, Fountain of Fortune and Brimstone Stormclouds kinda makes sense, but that it does'nt build Lighthouse is really bad for AI Castles. (only on maps with water of course.)
I don't know if it knows "how to handle" Freelancer's Guild, Thieves' Guild and Grotto, but it does'nt build them either.
You are able to hack the executable but never found out the reason AI doesn't build the special buildings is because it doesn't "know" about them?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 07, 2019 09:01 PM |
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What do you mean it does'nt know about them?
Yeah I also asked in the "How to edit HotA" thread, I got an answer from OxFEA, but I could'nt figure out how to do it. 
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 07:24 AM |
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revolut1oN said:
I just wanted to say that if we are to adjust balance, then we should do it from a high level competitive gameplay perspective as it gives the most profound answer to the eternal quest for seeking a perfectly calibrated, fair and enjoyable multiplayer experience.
It is not worth messing up the game just to 'balance' games lasting ten days or so.
Also I can firsthand testify to the enjoyability of the multiplayer experience already without any balancing changes.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 06:14 PM |
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Tapani said:
It is not worth messing up the game just to 'balance' games lasting ten days or so.
Extremely picky and hypocritical.
Messing in what way? By banning diplomacy? By your logic I can say that you are the one messing the game by using diplomacy and postulating weird stuff like Sorcery +100% damage (effect will be: now implosion pulverizes big stacks, with sorcery you will be able to do the same with Lightning Bolt lol). On the map without Red Orb balance is already tipped to the magic side of the game.
Tapani said:
Also I can firsthand testify to the enjoyability of the multiplayer experience already without any balancing changes.
Sorry but no. Even in SoD, many years before HotA, plenty features were banned and regulated to provide fair and enjoyable experience. Some aspects are simply not fair. It can be OK for casual, but pro players who often play for real money need to get a polished product. And singleplayer/LAN noob won't notice the difference if damage of some unit will be changed by 1 or 2.
Current multiplayer is like it is because average skill level at lobby is very high. People do much stuff with very small armies, beating much stronger guards and clearing banks fast. If you are to artifically prolong games by putting throngs of azure dragons in between zones, sure you can do that, but that will make any ammount of skill insignificant. You will basically force everybody; both pros and noobs alike to just sit in towns accumulate army or use some cheap exploit to beat the guards.
I can't see even ONE logical argument to bash current multiplayer way of playing.
Nor I can see any reason why singleplayer / hamachi / LAN players attack multiplayer even if they dont participate in it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 08, 2019 08:42 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
pro players who often play for real money need to get a polished product.
And here is the problem, imo. Which lead also at ToH dismantle over time. For a few jobless people who can afford wasting up to 10 hours a day thereby consider Heroes game as a THEIR life challenge and goal, they distorted the game beyond recognition, both game-play and maps.
I have nothing against people who decide to play a game by their rules, but please give us a break about how "multiplayer" is now the "deepest experience" and the only thing to consider before talking balance in Heroes. No, it isn't. The way they play, picking town, then hero, then map, also constantly bickering about early interaction as a thing to avoid + banning a third of features - spells, artifacts and tactics because "not fair" is just clowning the game.
This game never was about "fair", but being able to adapt to unknown circumstances then overcome the odds, if necessary. That excludes having players with ridiculous win-loss ratio, its just not possible. But instead provides a thrilling experience, both for people following your game as for the two players. Which it seems now being part of the past, when looking at the repetitive, limited and highly predictable strategies used nowadays.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted April 08, 2019 09:24 PM |
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Salamandre said:
And here is the problem, imo. Which lead also at ToH dismantle over time. For a few jobless people who can afford wasting up to 10 hours a day thereby consider Heroes game as a THEIR life challenge and goal, they distorted the game beyond recognition, both game-play and maps.
I have nothing against people who decide to play a game by their rules, but please give us a break about how "multiplayer" is now the "deepest experience" and the only thing to consider before talking balance in Heroes. No, it isn't. The way they play, picking town, then hero, then map, also constantly bickering about early interaction as a thing to avoid + banning a third of features - spells, artifacts and tactics because "not fair" is just clowning the game.
This game never was about "fair", but being able to adapt to unknown circumstances then overcome the odds, if necessary. That excludes having players with ridiculous win-loss ratio, its just not possible. But instead provides a thrilling experience, both for people following your game as for the two players. Which it seems now being part of the past, when looking at the repetitive, limited and highly predictable strategies used nowadays.
Beautifully put. Especially the part about same strategies that online players use. I can understand multiplayer games only lasting 10 days. That makes sense. Not everyone has the time to sit down and spend a few hours to play this game. But 10 days barely scrapes the surface of this game. This is game is almost like a grand strategy game. Where your strategies are spanning months, not days. And quite frankly, only playing for 10 days seems boring and repetitive. Especially if the same strategies are used over and over again. Like Salamandre said, "multiplayer" is not the "deepest experience", and this game never was about being fair.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 10:01 PM |
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this is starting to get funny reading all these posts
both of you, Salamandre, and Oddball - have you actually been @ the online lobby or are you just talking out of your arses ? 
Salamandre said:
The way they play, picking town, then hero, then map, also constantly bickering about early interaction as a thing to avoid + banning a third of features - spells, artifacts and tactics because "not fair" is just clowning the game.
i am not familiar with any such spell restrictions. or am i missing something? artifact restrictions are optional. about "unfair" tactics, if you mean that a player with a 21 speed Phoenix can attack infinitely a player casting Implosion on him, surrendering and repeating until his army is completely obliterated is not a fair restriction - then i think we aren't playing the same game to be honest
either that or Salamandre needs to renew his information baggage, because this isn't ToH anymore
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 08, 2019 11:33 PM |
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Well, one thing: a game is not a safe space - my area, your area, no pee pee touch until turn 45, so if your main is reachable by an hero trying hit and run strategy with some fast unit, then its you who need to relearn the fundamentals. There are at least half dozen counters for that, so repeating same tantra about "we don't play same game" isn't going to impress anyone.
And of course this isn't Toh, everyone gets it, I don't make ToH or the past apology, I only say recent games (yes, I watch some) look boring when playing because you modified the game from relative fairness - which was its core attractiveness, look at Heroes 2 as trigger, to absolute wanabee fairness. So all games look same, more or less.
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