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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 71 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 50 60 ... 67 68 69 70 71 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 12, 2019 03:55 AM

Yeah! Titans do good with it but if they hit Black Dragons and the entire stack doesn't die they still suck up with an extra 50% damage in the retaliation. Now, with Corsairs, in earlier battles, you play attack and return for an eternity damaging slow creatures over and over without ever being hit.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 08:59 AM

that unit with 15 HP is a glass cannon. it's lucky to even get a single shot before dying

good for PvE which is Cove's specialty

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 12, 2019 09:32 AM

It's less a glass cannon than Grand Elves, look at Sea Dogs stats, they are even higher than Cove's level 4 and 5 units plus all those abilities.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted April 12, 2019 09:50 AM
Edited by revolut1oN at 10:01, 12 Apr 2019.

Salamandre said:
And here is the problem, imo. Which lead also at ToH dismantle over time. For a few jobless people who can afford wasting up to 10 hours a day thereby consider Heroes game as a THEIR life challenge and goal, they distorted the game beyond recognition, both game-play and maps.


How is the game distorted? If you want to play the template that allows you to meet in first 3 days with diplomacy on, you can do that. I guess after 3 games when you will be mercilessly crushed by Ciele or Solmyr with absolutely no ways to counter you will change your mind though.

Edit: one more thing.
Salamandre said:
For a few jobless people who can afford wasting up to 10 hours a day thereby consider Heroes game as a THEIR life challenge and goal, they distorted the game beyond recognition, both game-play and maps.


Sorry, that is just SO disrespectful. All I said was that everybody can play the way they want, I just think multiplayers allows to adjust balance better. Yet you are the one bashing people for playing the way they like, who are you to judge anybody? You are their father or what? Let them play even 20 hours if they want.
I've just noticed that multiplayer players just play the game; others (singleplayer and pseudo-multi experts) come to bash the community way of playing. Not very nice if you ask me.

Salamandre said:
I have nothing against people who decide to play a game by their rules, but please give us a break about how "multiplayer" is now the "deepest experience" and the only thing to consider before talking balance in Heroes. No, it isn't.


I've never said its the deepest experience, don't lie please. I merely said everybody should play as they please. As for the balance - yes, it is only possible to adjust balance by considering many factors, many templates and possibilities in equally skilled multiplayer game. No offence, but vs AI balance can never be achieved, even in your 'maps' where you think the pinnacle of skill is hide behind force field, blind last enemy stack and then Resurrect, gg go next. These are fun maps and I like them very much (I've played many of yours and other classics) but they are in NO WAY a measure of skill.

Salamandre said:
The way they play, picking town, then hero, then map, also constantly bickering about early interaction as a thing to avoid + banning a third of features - spells, artifacts and tactics because "not fair" is just clowning the game.


I really dont see banning any spells, tactics and artifacts (except Cloak which I guess nobody complains about). Any example please or is it just pointless whining?

Also it proves you know nothing about multiplayer - you can play any way you want. For example; there is a popular way of playing called M200 now which is all random and meeting early is possible no problem and many pros play that.
Besides, no serious games allow picking towns. Its all random, then trade for what u get.

Salamandre said:
This game never was about "fair", but being able to adapt to unknown circumstances then overcome the odds, if necessary. That excludes having players with ridiculous win-loss ratio, its just not possible


Its still not about balance, it is far from it, but going in the right way. As a person that has been watching and playing both multi and single for like 12 years, I can judge that adapting to unknown is the most important factor now since I've started playing. Magic heroes finally being viable, guys like Elleshar rocking, Thorgrim shining, ability to make powerstack of any creature thanks to dwell and starting army changes and much more.
Again, I think that you have seen 1 or 2 games from bad streamer on Jebus Cross and you think thats how it looks. Well, its not.

Also - there is no guys with ridiculous win-lose ratio except cheaters. Even the best players have like 80% wins. The game IS NOT balanced like chess as I said earlier.

Salamandre said:
But instead provides a thrilling experience, both for people following your game as for the two players. Which it seems now being part of the past, when looking at the repetitive, limited  and highly predictable strategies used nowadays.


Extremely imbalanced experience is not thrilling. If you are for example playing a control game for 7-8 hours and building your mage to pulverize bad guys with implo (because you like mages, didnt get warrior or whatever reason) and then Crag attacks you with Red Orb that basically bans half of the battle aspect and reduces your mage to poop... its not fun for anybody. Loser gets frustrated and winner wins by extreme cheese.

As for nowadays style; you are blabbing the same mantra about predictable strategies all the time. Let me sum up things for you.

Single player "challenge" maps: forcefield/blind/ressurect or just any other way to prevent overwhelming AI from hitting you. In extreme cases of chinese maps: reload for 2 hours until you get good morale in crucial moment. Skill and fun? Well, no.
Multi player SoD: pick any strong warrior as a main, hunt for necro hero in tavern, gather thousands of skeletons early, do utopia and pick Red Orb. EVERY SoD game was like that.
HotA: balance changes that made fun strategies possible (I've seen jc breaking on mass dwarves, harpies, intelligence heroes with overwhelming mana and many more, can type some interesting examples if you want)

Sorry but you are somehow locked in your beliefs and refuse to see any arguments beyond, you are the one repeating like mantra that multi experience is linear or boring, while on the other hand is exactly the other way. I have an impression that you are locked in some kind of time cage and looking from 12 years ago.

The myth that there is no interaction between players is just... well, a myth. Its coming from people who only know JC, yet state to have played every template. But then again, if they did play everything, wouldn't they know better that there is PLENTY of interaction throughout the game?

I hope for some serious answer other than: multi is linear because it is and they are banning SO MUCH stuff because they are!

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 12, 2019 10:52 AM

Lth3 said:
that unit with 15 HP is a glass cannon. it's lucky to even get a single shot before dying


Well, yeah! They won't do much against an human being in the final battle. But then again, what is the mid level unit besides VLs that does? In SP, I often used the combination of Ironfist and Slow or Haste and Armour to make Sea Dogs wipe Azures or AAs in the first round.
But I'm not talking about those moments of the game, I'm talking when you just have some birds, a hand-full of Corsairs and a few Witches. That's when their habilities shine and that is also when a skilled player is building his army of angels and giants from conservatories and factories.
They are a bit like Logistics, they may not help in the FB but they surely help how you get there.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 04:17 PM

phoenix4ever said:
It's less a glass cannon than Grand Elves, look at Sea Dogs stats, they are even higher than Cove's level 4 and 5 units plus all those abilities.


look at cost, shooting only once, and only 4 shots

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 12, 2019 04:20 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:23, 12 Apr 2019.

Sea Dogs might only shoot once, but they can kill Azure Dragons with that shot! They also have 12 shots. (with Ammo Cart infinite.)
I often find myself casting mass Forgetfulness against Cove armies (AI) cause I really don't like when they shoot at me.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 04:32 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 16:33, 12 Apr 2019.

look at it this way. opp will kill them asap so they don't have the chance to make use of Accurate Shot that way. and Sea Dogs, do you plan to have them week 1? i don't think so. if you plan to build them 1st week then you can't even have Nix + Castle that week. whereas Grand Elfs - double shot with 24 arrows, you have starting from day 2

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 12, 2019 04:39 PM

You can go for enemy's Sea Dogs first sure, but then what about Haspids and Ayssids they might come charging right in your face and Sea Witches and cannon can still shoot. Of course this does'nt apply to week 1, but mid-late game.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 05:01 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 17:19, 12 Apr 2019.

yes, Cove is at disadvantage if it can't rush forward with Haste

however, it's enough to block pirates with one of your faster stacks and so you either disrupt Cove's launching forward for having it attack your sent stack or you successfully block the pirate from shooting and carry on battling other units. then just couple shots from your own shooter if the enemy is not rushing you, and that should do the trick by lowering amount of pirates so Accurate Shot don't trigger. 75+ pirates can take out 2 creatures with it's ability. less than 75 will take out 1 guaranteed. and 25 of them is 50% for 1 to perish. so if you have Azures as you say - it's a good idea to rush them given the chance, unless opp block it with tactics. if that is the case then cast a mass offensive spell and that will do the trick, if not kill off the pirates completely, given the meager 15 HP. in any case it's easy to counter them, unless you don't have any initiative and opp casts Haste and rushes you or he casts Slow and is able to make his shot with pirates, but that is unlikely scenario because Cove's army is at 12 speed max, only better than Stronghold/Tower ( 11 speed ) and already worse than Fortresss ( 13 speed ). and Fortress is considered the most defensive town

bloodsucker said:
Well, yeah! They won't do much against an human being in the final battle. But then again, what is the mid level unit besides VLs that does?


Air Elemental. 2nd level but has stats the same as upgraded pirate and is even cheaper to build. not to mention comparing ridiculous 2nd pirate upgrade and cost. damage-wise is about the same

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 12, 2019 07:12 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:13, 12 Apr 2019.

Lth3 said:
Air Elemental.

Ops. Yeah, I'll give you that. Storm Elementals are completely over the top for their level, they are more like a reasonable level 3 then a level two.
But you're making a confusion, I talked about Azure Dragons, not Phoenix4ever. And in some maps I customized enemies in fact have a lot of super dragons that I kill with Sea Dogs.
By the time I start to have some Azures myself, Sea Dogs are already in some secondary hero, cleaning conservatories and factories. That's precisely what I was referring to when I talked about different moments of the game.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 07:32 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 19:33, 12 Apr 2019.

i suppose they could be fairly useful when entering a treasure zone early on and picking out fights with high level units so pirate shot can be maximized. what is better - fighting 10 Archangels or 100 Wywern Monarchs in this case? less risk more reward scenario. however as most bulky lvl 7+ are high speed, Tactics is a must, which brings it from useful to circumstantial

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 12, 2019 08:05 PM

revolut1oN said:
I've never said its the deepest experience, don't lie please.


Yes you said.

revolut1oN said:
if we are to adjust balance, then we should do it from a high level competitive gameplay perspective as it gives the most profound answer to the eternal quest for seeking a perfectly calibrated, fair and enjoyable multiplayer experience.


Look, I am not bashing these people playing, they do whatever they like, within the rules they pick, its their business. But then its you who constantly smear here by recalling us there is ONE way, and it is their way. The experts.

Adding that "my maps are easy" is irrelevant, I am NOT the one coming here and claiming my maps are "the most profound answer" to what Heroes is, see the difference?

Then, as you sound quite picky about inexperienced people who should just shut up, what is an expert to you, may I ask please? One who spent the most time with the game? Then you are no match to me, I wasted more hours in this stupid game than you could imagine. One who played online enough? You are no match neither, I started with H2 online and played about 200 games then about same number in ToH, here is a link from times you weren't born yet. You think guys from today have a higher level? Possible but how can one be 100% correct? There is not a single active player from ToH formers, yet I recall Antal played until late and he won almost all russian tournaments.

But foremost, I am not claiming being an MP expert - my last game was 15 years ago I think, I only point that these guys play linear games, due to templates setup. Same end armies, same tactics, same restrictions. Do I say they aren't good? No, I think they are amazing players. What I say is they keep playing a game which, from my experience online, is boring. Look at the other guy talking about 'hit and run'. He says there is no counter. I then post and sum about 12 ways to counter hit and run, he then answers "is a cheap tactic" while not reading a word from what I offered as counters.

revolut1oN said:
a perfectly calibrated, fair and enjoyable multiplayer experience.


Here is where our ways separate. Heroes is NOT a perfectly calibrated game, and if you want it to become perfectly balanced, then you have of course to cut deep, then design templates where there is not much place for improvising. Which you did.

You keep saying "there are templates" where people meet early. Ok, link me a streamed game who ended before day 7. If not, my statement that such games are linear is valid: creep creature banks, break guards, get stats hulkified from bonus zones then final big battle. if you have link of great games not following all these rules, please link them to me and I will watch wholeheartedly. Because what interests me the most is seeing people who are able to adapt to unseen and untrained situations. Those are great players, all other are great technicians.  




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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 12, 2019 10:37 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:46, 12 Apr 2019.

Salamandre said:
There is not a single active player from ToH formers, yet I recall Antal played until late and he won almost all russian tournaments.


maybe you have Maretti in mind. because i cannot find any Antal in HW league

Maretti was active from 2011 in HW league, and i would suppose at least 5 years before that in WCL league

he was top player if not the best in those times

Salamandre said:
But foremost, I am not claiming being an MP expert - my last game was 15 years ago I think, I only point that these guys play linear games, due to templates setup. Same end armies, same tactics, same restrictions.


would you be able to design an illinear template? and what benefit such template would have?

Salamandre said:
Do I say they aren't good? No, I think they are amazing players. What I say is they keep playing a game which, from my experience online, is boring.


what do you think of this template?

Template

or this?

Template

this?

Template

Salamandre said:
Look at the other guy talking about 'hit and run'. He says there is no counter. I then post and sum about 12 ways to counter hit and run, he then answers "is a cheap tactic" while not reading a word from what I offered as counters.


sorry for that. i just did not wanna waste time if you had not experienced a proper Hit & Run abuse, so thought you would not understand even if i explained. but let me explain

the reason being, why all those 4-5 ways you mention ( certainly not 12 to point the obvious out ) are only possible theoretically, i.e if perfect circumstances occur, however, odds for you ( the defender ) are slim, and for him ( the Hit & Runner ) are very high, if not guaranteed. all he needs is to choose Conflux as starting town, build Firebirds asap and find a decent damage spell, and he is ready by 2nd or at the latest 3rd week to wreak havoc on you without you even having a chance to retaliate. what are the chances that you have found a Red Orb by that time? close to zero. and no, you having a Phoenix without playing Conflux is out of the question in the first weeks of the game, obviously. if you think you can avoid him you are mistaken. especially given you personally would probably allow full DD x5 usage and that means he will most likely be able to get you every turn or at the worst every other turn by combining Town Portal and five times DD. if you so clearly want to avoid him, then prepare to give away all your towns and lose the game

and that is that. i hope my explanation suffices to you what happens in game practically and how theoretical knowledge and possibilities don't do any good in a real game. the % and reproducability is what matters and makes a certain tactic viable in a multiplayer game

Salamandre said:
You keep saying "there are templates" where people meet early. Ok, link me a streamed game who ended before day 7.


2sm4d(3) is one of the templates where such possibility is there, given comfortable generation of terrain, not much mountains or sideways and clear path to opponent. but then again what is the point of such short games? what does it prove?

he already said that choosing Ciele or Solmyr or any other similar hero is a sure-fire way of winning the game when meeting early. even borderline abuse on opponent

ofcourse, fair multiplayer have certain rules, so either both players will start randomly or these heroes will be forbidden on such maps, but i presume you are against any kind of rule and guess either you would be finding unsuspecting opponents and abusing them in such a way or they abusing you in this way 99% of the time, and the whole profound multiplayer experience will come down to whomever knows how to abuse better. the Skilled Abuser, or Dirty Technician is what i meant by

Salamandre said:
"is a cheap tactic"


is this what you call an excellent Heroes 3 experience? having the freedom to abuse your opponent whenever you like?

Salamandre said:
If not, my statement that such games are linear is valid: creep creature banks, break guards, get stats hulkified from bonus zones then final big battle.


that's Jebus Cross or Blockbuster or some kind of other similar template

Salamandre said:
if you have link of great games not following all these rules, please link them to me and I will watch wholeheartedly. Because what interests me the most is seeing people who are able to adapt to unseen and untrained situations. Those are great players, all other are great technicians.


that's the thing. people are enjoying playing the game rather that watching streams. a stream is like a trend. it comes, has its moments, then goes away and something new comes and gets hyped up without any logical reason why. it's just a trend

if not a stream, i would be able to show you something personally, or at least send some saves. in my eyes that ir rather more efficient than watching a trendy stream

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VampMarcie
VampMarcie

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2019 06:20 PM
Edited by VampMarcie at 18:21, 13 Apr 2019.

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but what about a new component artifact combining:
Crown of the Five Seas
Royal Armor of Nix
Shield of Naval Glory
Trident of Dominion

For the component effect, I was thinking something like:
+5 to all primary skills (total +12 Atk and Def, +11 Kno + SpP)
Troops become immune to negative and damaging Water and Air Magic spells apart from Disrupting Ray:
Magic Arrow, Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Weakness, Forgetfulness, Frost Ring, Destroy Undead, Hypnotize, Chain Lightning, Titan's Lightning Bolt

So essentially a weaker version of the Power of the Dragon Father but without the immunity from beneficial spells and no change to Earth/Fire Magic spell interaction to balance it out.

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krs
krs


Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2019 01:52 PM

Please give from Necromancy Skeleton Warriors, when you have at least 1 Skeleton Warrior in your army.

Its tedious to run around and upgrade them.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 14, 2019 10:06 PM

Two other things i forgot to add to my previous list.

1. Make chess clock finish combat.
I feel its a little pointless to have a timer for combat if peolpe can just plan their big fight for last and take 10 minutes for combat.
I think when timer runs out combat should end with autocombat and the hero should level up always the left skill (which tends to be improve a current skill).

2. TEmplate option for Zone/castle matches/don't match player Zone/castle.

A very welcome template option would be to be able to choose castles/zones to match or specifically not match a specific player or all players zones/castles.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted April 15, 2019 09:16 PM

I dunno why some ppl still talk about balance issues... The game is more or less quite balanced, but I agree on some additions for tournament rules. So far it only affects some artifacts and spells more or less... I needs to be extended to unit and hero balance aswell imho.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 15, 2019 11:04 PM

P4R4D0X0N said:
I dunno why some ppl still talk about balance issues... The game is more or less quite balanced, but I agree on some additions for tournament rules. So far it only affects some artifacts and spells more or less... I needs to be extended to unit and hero balance aswell imho.

I disagree game is extremly unbalanced in so many areas, the most unbalanced game i play.
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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted April 15, 2019 11:42 PM

P4R4D0X0N said:
I dunno why some ppl still talk about balance issues...

If you mean why people still bother to post suggestions in the Hota Suggestion thread, then I agree with you 100% because none of the proposed ideas is ever implemented. For me, it seems like a waste of time.

But on the other hand, if you mean why people really think the game still has room for improvements or is unbalanced then just look at this thread
Poorly designed heroes in Heroes 3?
and you know what, what phoenix4ever writes it is just true. POINT.
Why are there still 7 Eagle Eye specialist in the game, when we all know they are utterly snow and boring and the only way to handle them is to avoid them. There are still things in the game which doesn't make sense and COULD be improved. Now does this automatically mean the game is not balanced? No! Given enough time and maps, you will always find ways to handle these "bad" situations. Is it the task of the Hota crew to change this situation? No, but as long as there are these obvious flaws in the game there will always be people pointing them out, or people want to print their own vision into the game, which is often not shared by the majority of other people.
So there is a difference between balance and improving the gaming experience. Also, H3 is a game that can be played vastly differently by people which makes the situation difficult, so to archive balance, it always has to come from the high-level plays (the pros). Unfortunately, this lets the average Joe, which is probably 90% of the player base somewhat unsatisfied. This is no one's fault, it is just as it is. I think that we can agree that this situation won't change and that H3 still is a great game (which hopefully will slowly continue to evolve in a good direction, as it has in the last years)      



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