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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This Popular Thread is 196 pages long: 1 20 40 60 ... 70 71 72 73 74 ... 80 100 120 140 160 180 196 · «PREV / NEXT»
Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Famous Hero
posted April 27, 2019 11:15 PM

Quote:
You add the ability to cheat your way through combat without being forced to either resolve combat via auto combat or manually. Potential for cheating.


I don't see hwo to move the conversation forward, you keep claiming the other things are "quality of life" improvements, and i claim the same of this, you keep trying to say those things function on a different axis, and I just don't see it. Unless you have a new argument of why that is a different axis, Then repeating the same agian and again is not moving the conversation forward.

This doesnt add the ability to "cheat" through combat. It just gives you information in the way of an autocombat simulation.

Would you say that someoen that before figthing goes to a second monitor , makes a map and create the EXACT same combat to see how it goes it's cheating?

When i played online i used to do that many times, It never occured to me it was cheating. Some people use calculators to calculate the combats faster nobody calls them cheating.
Call simulate a combat cheating seems completly odd to me.


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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted April 27, 2019 11:27 PM


I found the battle simulation from far away distance very problematic since it would possibly give information that you wouldn't normally have:

Battle simulation takes account to spells, artifacts and stats you have. However, in map the player doesn't normally have this information. So if players would be able to simulate battles from anywhere, the surprise attacks wouldn't work. (And I'm talking about simulating battles between heroes and not PvE)

Example: You're getting carried by your Mass Slow + powerful shooter stack. From experience you know what you're capable of beating. You simulate a battle between you and other hero which you would estimate to be able to beat easily. However, the simulation shows that you would lose that battle. From this you do know that the other hero has some kind of ace in his sleeves: probably a mass haste to counter your slow, or perhaps a cape of silence. Normally you would take that battle, but thanks to the simulation you end up running away.

How about instead of giving exact numbers the game would give you a rough estimate how well you would do in that battle? You know, just like it is in Homm 5. The battles could be described as Easy, Medium, Hard, Very Hard and so on. This would only take account on creatures and nothing else. I would say this would give new players the information they need without giving experienced players any information they wouldn't normally have.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 27, 2019 11:28 PM

Yes, if when playing multiplayer you use a second computer for simulating fights in the current map, you are cheating.

The purpose of a multiplayer game is equal conditions, for both players. Ofc, it wouldn't be cheating if your opponent and you agree on simulating fights on a second computer before the game. But as you relate it, doesn't sounds fair at all.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted April 27, 2019 11:28 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 23:34, 27 Apr 2019.

Pollo2002 said:

This doesnt add the ability to "cheat" through combat. It just gives you information in the way of an autocombat simulation.

Thus giving the information of exactly what is going to happen. If you win. Or lose. What units you will lose in the combat. You know the outcome of the battle without having to fight. Now you know that you might lose this fight and you can just walk away. Not taking any loses and just continue on. Its a way to ensure you don't take any loses and win everytime. Or in this case, don't lose any units. That's huge in early game, where a few units makes the difference between a win or lose. But now you can just skip the ones you would lose. You are removing a factor of the game for the sake of brevity.  

Pollo2002 said:
Would you say that someoen that before figthing goes to a second monitor , makes a map and create the EXACT same combat to see how it goes it's cheating?

When i played online i used to do that many times, It never occured to me it was cheating.


Yeah I'd call that cheating. Especially considering you would do this online. Again, to ensure that you don't lose.

Hourglass said:
Example: You're getting carried by your Mass Slow + powerful shooter stack. From experience you know what you're capable of beating. You simulate a battle between you and other hero which you would estimate to be able to beat easily. However, the simulation shows that you would lose that battle. From this you do know that the other hero has some kind of ace in his sleeves: probably a mass haste to counter your slow, or perhaps a cape of silence. Normally you would take that battle, but thanks to the simulation you end up running away.

Exactly! You have meta information that you should not have.

Salamandre said:

Yes, if when playing multiplayer you use a second computer for simulating fights in the current map, you are cheating.

Yup totally not fair, you have knowledge that has been given to you outside of the current match, knowledge that the other player does not have.

You could compare combat simulation to you playing a game of poker, with a friend telling you what cards your opponent has in his hand. How is that fair?

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Famous Hero
posted April 28, 2019 12:06 AM

Ok, i think the idea of calling that cheating to be insane. What's next i can't use a calculator? I can't use a faster mouse? I can't use a wiki with units stats?
To me your working in a parallel universe.

The poker comparsiion is terrible. If you want to do a poker comparision would be for a player to do a montecarlo simulation of a run between two hands in a specific board. Something i would consider not cheating (btw poker sites tell you that THIS IS NOT CHEATING)

Knowing the opponent hand is giving you information that you can't possible know now matter how many calculations, simulations and whatever you want have.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 28, 2019 12:11 AM

Pollo2002 said:
What's next i can't use a calculator? I can't use a faster mouse? I can't use a wiki with units stats?



None of those is giving you any advantage over the outcome in a fight (lol at faster mouse argument). Playing the fight on a second computer is showing you exactly what will occur, thus it may change your plans. You use external device to know outcome in advance and build a strategy. This is definition of cheating, if you can't get why, stop arguing for the sake of, take a breath and think about.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted April 28, 2019 12:13 AM

Pollo2002 said:
Ok, i think the idea of calling that cheating to be insane. What's next i can't use a calculator? I can't use a faster mouse? I can't use a wiki with units stats?
To me your working in a parallel universe.

1. Who uses calculators and what exactly is the purpose of that?

2. I don't think a faster would really help you in a turn based game.

3. The game gives you the stats of the units when you right click them, so using the wiki is invalid.

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted April 28, 2019 02:09 AM

Simulating a fight - yes, I would consider it slight cheating, depending on what you want.
See, I did mention autosaves and loading, right? You said, that this is hardly feasible in a MP game - because the other party wouldn't tolerate it.

The thing is, simulating that fight with a perfect replica of your enemy is just as bad. You glean informations you should by no right have (and it would make Visions completely superflous). Having an simulation on the basis of an expected enemy? How do you get that? How do you know what you were to expect in each situation? There are a lot of factors that wouldn't be taken into account or would be outright unknown. In that case, what worth is there?

See, I recently fought an enemy hero three times (since I was petty and didn't want him to flee). The first time I lost half my army and he fled. The second time I lost a few units but he still fled. The third time I crushed him before he could act. The reason? Because I gleaned informations with each fight, getting to know how he would act, what he has, and how to use my units.
If I had a rough estimtate instead, there could be a ton of different outcomes. Maybe, the simulation is overestimating my opponent, in that case, even though I could beat him without any losses, he may be displayed as me loosing. Maybe, the simulation was underestimating my enemy, and I wouldn't have thought as much, since it was an easy battle, right? And suddenly I notice that it was a 30/30/30 hero with Implosion and Master Earth magic, killing a stack each time he casts (thats basically how my fight went. I needed to obliterate his army before he could act.)
In both situations, the result is of no worth at all. Same, though not as strong, goes for the random creeps. Since if you use an estimate, you could fail extremly depending on what you estimated (1-4 dragons - there is a huge difference....)

Sorry, but I do think that experience should matter. You shouldn't try to make everything equal and delete the skill componente from this game (especially since that isn't possible in the first place) and simply accept that you have to learn how to estimate your enemy. The information you get are more than adequat for that.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted April 28, 2019 05:13 AM

nordos said:
Sorry, but I do think that experience should matter. You shouldn't try to make everything equal and delete the skill component from this game (especially since that isn't possible in the first place) and simply accept that you have to learn how to estimate your enemy. The information you get are more than adequate for that.

I agree 100%.

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted April 28, 2019 01:23 PM

What I would like, though I am unsure of how much work it would be, is 'custom rules':

Working similar to Tournament Rules, but being more modulare, you could activate/change specific things. For example:

Base Hero Movement: (Int, default)
Banned artifacts/spells/skills (dropdown menus similar to the mapeditor, at the very least for random maps)
Lich cloak: (Skeleton, Skeleton, Skeleton) , (Skeleton, Zombie, Wight) , (Zombie, Wight, Lich)  [you can choose one of these three]
...



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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted April 28, 2019 11:10 PM

After todays reveal I'm fairly certain Factory needs a mechanical Dragon as a tier 7.

Here's a nice suggestion, courtesy of Team 5 (Heartshtone):




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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted April 28, 2019 11:14 PM

Or perhaps something like this?


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Liso1
Liso1


Known Hero
posted April 29, 2019 10:06 AM

Will the blacksmith be important for the campaign story?


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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted April 29, 2019 06:00 PM

Woah I never even noticed that. Interesting.

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted May 01, 2019 01:44 PM

So... I know that this probably isn't the first time it was mentioned, but... Are there any playns on readjusting Fortress?
See, A War Unicorn, which is IMO a stronger unit that a Wyvern Monarch, costs less while having far more health, a bit more attack and blind/magic resistance. The only real downside is less speed and no flying, but that shouldn't mean that a Monarch is justified to cost 150 more gold!

Fortress already has some other problems, like a maximum Magie Guild of 3, quite weak heroes (since their stat distribution is .... not that good, also most have bad skills) and weak Level 7 units (in comparison). So, why is that town so very expensive in addition?! It seems to me that their upgraded version are partly unjustified expensive (for example, a Dragon Fly costs as much as a Royal Griffin, a Greater Basilisk as much as a Crusader(!)).


Another thing so that this post is more than a rant:
I would like to have some sort of shortcut to see where a portal is leading.
See, you have 3 portals next to each other - though you used them all at least once, you have to scroll over the whole map (especially when you already scouted the area) to actually know where it leads. Now, if we had a shortcut, say cntrl + left click, which moves your screen to the destination (if multiple are present, just a random one), or showing the on the map for a short time. It would really be helfpul for those who play long games over several sessions to help getting into the map again.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted May 01, 2019 06:57 PM

nordos said:
See, A War Unicorn, which is IMO a stronger unit that a Wyvern Monarch, costs less while having far more health, a bit more attack and blind/magic resistance. The only real downside is less speed and no flying, but that shouldn't mean that a Monarch is justified to cost 150 more gold!

Fortress already has some other problems, like a maximum Magie Guild of 3, quite weak heroes (since their stat distribution is .... not that good, also most have bad skills) and weak Level 7 units (in comparison). So, why is that town so very expensive in addition?! It seems to me that their upgraded version are partly unjustified expensive (for example, a Dragon Fly costs as much as a Royal Griffin, a Greater Basilisk as much as a Crusader(!)).
I see where you are coming from, but I thought that the reason behind all the points you made above, was that the majority of Fortress units have rather annoying abilities. And you were supposed to focus your build around the creatures abilities more than anything? So perhaps that is why the units cost more? Because of their unique abilities, Dispel, Petrify, Death Stare, Poisonous, Attack all adjacent enemies/no enemy retaliation etc.  


nordos said:
Now, if we had a shortcut, say cntrl + left click, which moves your screen to the destination (if multiple are present, just a random one), or showing the on the map for a short time. It would really be helfpul for those who play long games over several sessions to help getting into the map again.
I wouldn't mind having something like this. My question is would it only be something for one way portals, or two way, or both?

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted May 01, 2019 08:32 PM

Oddball13579 said:
I see where you are coming from, but I thought that the reason behind all the points you made above, was that the majority of Fortress units have rather annoying abilities. And you were supposed to focus your build around the creatures abilities more than anything? So perhaps that is why the units cost more? Because of their unique abilities, Dispel, Petrify, Death Stare, Poisonous, Attack all adjacent enemies/no enemy retaliation etc.  

True, they have abilities, but the same is true for a War Unicorn. And in my humble opinion, is a chance to blind superior to decreasing health by 10% up to a maximum of 50% over 5 combat turns (with the need to inflict it twice in total). Gorgons for example? They are in my opinion the best T5 unit (though Lichs and Rocs are quite good as well) and their specialy ability is very powerful to boot. The Flies? They are fast, yes, they can dispel spells (which is only really revelant in PvP) and they make cast weakness. But all that isn't such a huge boon that they can have 1/5th less life than a Griffin, who also deal 1 additional damage (so, 2/7th) more! And Griffins have unlimited Retaliation, as well.
I don't exactly mean to buff their units - as you said, they have their utility. But the amount of money you need to invest seems just far too much for their stats (well, mainly Flies, Basilisks and Wyvern).

Oddball13579 said:
I wouldn't mind having something like this. My question is would it only be something for one way portals, or two way, or both?

As long as you have already explored it, it should work. It shouldn't if you haven't yet travered the portal, though I am unsure whetever this restriction would be possible. After all, it is information that you can get by simply searching the map - it just takes that much more time to actually find the portals by hand (similar how the castle shortcut allows you to recruit all units instead of needing to click on all dwellings manually)

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted May 01, 2019 10:51 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 22:57, 01 May 2019.

nordos said:
True, they have abilities, but the same is true for a War Unicorn. And in my humble opinion, is a chance to blind superior to decreasing health by 10% up to a maximum of 50% over 5 combat turns (with the need to inflict it twice in total). Gorgons for example? They are in my opinion the best T5 unit (though Lichs and Rocs are quite good as well) and their specialy ability is very powerful to boot. The Flies? They are fast, yes, they can dispel spells (which is only really revelant in PvP) and they make cast weakness. But all that isn't such a huge boon that they can have 1/5th less life than a Griffin, who also deal 1 additional damage (so, 2/7th) more! And Griffins have unlimited Retaliation, as well.
I don't exactly mean to buff their units - as you said, they have their utility. But the amount of money you need to invest seems just far too much for their stats (well, mainly Flies, Basilisks and Wyvern).

I was looking at the costs of units and their stats on the HoMM3 wiki and both Basilisks and Wyverns are middle of the road for how expensive they are and their stats. Although you can clearly see the drop off with Wyverns/Wyvern Monarchs. I'd say maybe -50 gold to their cost would be acceptable.  

Edit: As I was looking through the chart I noticed something. Gold Dragons actually have a higher attack and defense stat than Black Dragons. Gold has Attk. 27 and Def. 27, while Black has Attk. 25 and Def. 25. Yet everyone says Black Dragons are better than Gold. If they mean the magic resistance than okay. But stat wise, Gold Dragons seem to be superior. Just some food for thought.


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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 01, 2019 11:35 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:40, 01 May 2019.

Fortress has always been one of my favorite factions, but they do seem a bit weak sometimes. I mean Gorgons and Hydras are awesome if you actually get to use them on proper targets, (Teleport is nice on Hydras) but Wyverns seem very fragile and the other units feel mediocre. Fortress also suck at attacking towns and lack in the Mage Guild department.
Why does Witches get so much Power and Knowledge, but so few spells?, better learn Eagle Eye then.

About Gold VS Black Dragons, remember Black Dragons have 300 hp, Gold only 250. And the Implosion vulnerability is a big minus imo.
It does'nt seem fair they can be blasted with Implosion, but not resurrected. They should have been completely immune like Black Dragons or immune to level 1-3, so they could be resurrected.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted May 02, 2019 04:09 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Fortress has always been one of my favorite factions, but they do seem a bit weak sometimes. I mean Gorgons and Hydras are awesome if you actually get to use them on proper targets, (Teleport is nice on Hydras) but Wyverns seem very fragile and the other units feel mediocre. Fortress also suck at attacking towns and lack in the Mage Guild department.
Why does Witches get so much Power and Knowledge, but so few spells?, better learn Eagle Eye then.
Yeah Wyverns are very fragile when compared to their counterparts. I never really noticed the weak Mage Guild, I suppose that's because when I play Fortress I go mainly might and ignore magic. Choosing to go tanky and brute force rather than magic.

phoenix4ever said:
About Gold VS Black Dragons, remember Black Dragons have 300 hp, Gold only 250. And the Implosion vulnerability is a big minus imo.
It does'nt seem fair they can be blasted with Implosion, but not resurrected. They should have been completely immune like Black Dragons or immune to level 1-3, so they could be resurrected.

Very true. I forgot about the hp difference. And it has always bothered me that resurrection is a level 4 spell. It should be a level 5 spell like implosion is.

As a side note, are Gold Dragons immune to an Archangels resurrection? The game and wiki both state that Archangels do not cast resurrection. So does that mean Archangels can res Gold Dragons??

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