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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy
Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · NEXT»
frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 18, 2017 02:53 AM
Edited by frostysh at 12:46, 26 May 2017.

The matter of choice - Philosophy

--- First of I am mega-super sleepy for now
--- Second of sorry for turning "spam tread" to the 'kind of ma' personal blog, well I have some blog-like stuff on the wordpress-like stuff (i have forgot the name of the resouce), but I have forgot a password there - to be more preciously I have forgot where I have scribed this password , I have "restored" ma' account on social network - Vk.com, but still it sux, coz downloading very long and there is alot of "ideo-guys" (I have incredible ability to find such kind of peoples, despite I have almsot zero interest in them ) and other stuff.
--- Also I have watched "PULP FICTION" - too bloody-nonsense as for myself, but it have triggered some very interesting thoughts in ma' brain.


So the Choice the thing that peoples doing everytime , well you will say:

1) Choice can be predictable tricked or force -
--- Yes it is, still we have non-zero probability of something will going wrong, for an example: the human walking, the process of walking is actually sequence of the controlled failings,



it is an instincts the genetically programmed stuff, But, due to the power of will, or something like that, human can forced it's body to release control of the process and the human will fall, so we cannot predict it for the each people on the earth, depending only on genetics and such stuff - if it will fall, or if it will walk in the next second - the choice rocks
and those who trying to trick to lie etc to force the choice is playing not fair.



And this is obviously not the way of frostysh, despite of it's effectiveness.


2) Animals cannot make a choice, they are programmed.
--- Yes and no, truly programmed perhaps only a viruses and/or some bacterias etc. Other animals, even despite of their instinctive nature, can make a some little choices, for an example - two moose can decide to fight on not to fight. Same difficulties with a choice have a children of humans, and etc,

So I think the choice is the most important thing in the known to me Universe, at least I know no more important things, the life of the anything is looks like a bucket of choices, I need to think about that...
And obviously I need to go to sleep, even despite I have eat so many hand-made cookies...
Quote:
Eric Hoffer(1976AD)-Communism, Albert Einstein(1929AD)-Nationalism, Steven Weinberg(1999AD)-Religion


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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
I'm an expert chefff
posted March 18, 2017 07:27 AM

*cracks a Miller Light*
chuguchugcuguchu


bro man you are exactly what the misfit team is looking for.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2017 09:24 AM

Its zero probability of something rise by coincidence like evolutionists says. Eye, heart and more, more its most complicated than all world computers and technology. Simple insects are more complicated...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 18, 2017 09:38 AM

What is love baby don't hurt me!
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 18, 2017 10:21 AM

Elvin said:
What is love baby don't hurt me!


Don't hurt me! No more...
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A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 18, 2017 10:23 AM

behind every form, a function.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 18, 2017 12:41 PM

Baronus said:
Its zero probability of something rise by coincidence like evolutionists says. Eye, heart and more, more its most complicated than all world computers and technology. Simple insects are more complicated...


People who say that have no concept of what a few billion years of time is actually like.

The concept of choice is based on the concept of free will. Free will, by definition, hinges on the fact that the future isn't already determined. This is a fallacy, though; the only thing we don't know is how it's going to evolve, but that's something different.

It really doesn't matter what we think to choose, in the end you can only spend each moment in time in one particular way. Whatever other choice you thought to have will never become manifest and therefore remain abstract and not part of our reality. The past is intangible, we cannot change or influence events that happened in the period before the present. The future is intangible just as well; what makes us think that we can change that? Like I said, every moment of time can only be performed in one way and one way only. All other options don't exist, are figments of our imagination, aren't real. It's just that we have no knowledge of the future that we think we have a choice. But it's like the Oracle said in The Matrix: "You already made your choice. Now you got to find out why". Once you lived through the moment, you can't go back and choose something else instead.

Our entire lives take place in the present, the here and now, the singularity between the past and the future. We don't even know the length of time that the 'present' spans, despite living our entire lives in it. Can time be quantized? If so, the present is as small as the smallest time step. If not, then the singularity of the present is infinitessemaly small, probably close to zero - and yet, it's more tangible than either the past or the future, which are abstract concepts derived from our perception of time. Thinking of it in that way, you might even wonder if time really exists.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 18, 2017 12:53 PM

It is only the mutations that are coincidental anyway, not the whole process of evolution. Natural selection is not random as in "chaotic" but random as in "not designed."

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 18, 2017 02:33 PM

--- First I want to say that frigging summer is coming and those son of preacher man farm' work is hardly distracting me from anything, this is including the posting process of this forum.

Celfious -
Celfious said:
*cracks a Miller Light*
chuguchugcuguchu
bro man you are exactly what the misfit team is looking for.
I don't understand you mr Celfious, nor I want - but if you type that frostysh is looser. you only particularly right.
Yes I have no job, no girl, etc. But along with that I am honest, I am fair, and I always was like that (and this is truly luck...), and I have nothing in the past to regret (perhaps for an exception of the moment in my childhood when I need to stop ma' 'friends' from beating some particular girl with no words, but with fists, well I always was soft, like a sponge bob - this is my very problem ), and frostysh is ideologically strong, at least no faced ideology have no serious effects on frostysh, and even more anyone from that ideologies trying to prove something to frostysh looks very weak along with his/her arguments, this is not means that I have strong power of will, or something like that - this is means my image of the surrounding world is just more tough than many other stuff that I have faced.

Baronus -
Baronus said:
Its zero probability of something rise by coincidence like evolutionists says. Eye, heart and more, more its most complicated than all world computers and technology. Simple insects are more complicated...
Mr Baronus, forcing my mind to remember anything that have zero value in the Nature, and I remembering nothin' - especially in the case that you mentioned .

yogi -

yeah, this function usually laid between 0 and 1, and they call this function - probability .

Maurice -
Maurice said:
The concept of choice is based on the concept of free will. Free will, by definition, hinges on the fact that the future isn't already determined. This is a fallacy, though; the only thing we don't know is how it's going to evolve, but that's something different.
Well, mr Maurice (you name is reminds to me a rice ), you trying to connect the two different levels of understanding:

1) non-living things such an electron, or/and the stone

2) and living beings - such as frostysh

This is means you touching a very difficult question, that perhaps even mr Hawking have no answers to that. The question about very reality - you there is some theories ( and have no doubts that such theories exist ) that even your mind, your thoughts can change the very reality. And free will is a very complicated thing in this case, this concept touching a very reality itself.
About the future, you again trying to get in the field where nothing almost interesting explored yet.

In general, you trying to explain philosophic question with a Science, on the level where this Science is consist of the only theories and Philosophy itself.  
Maurice said:
It really doesn't matter what we think to choose, in the end you can only spend each moment in time in one particular way
What is this 'way' means? - just a words-play? Or you are trying to connect Quantum States to the Macroworld ? I have doubts that you can precise definition of the 'way' in this case. To complicated it look for frostysh.
And I must remind you, mr Maurice that no confirmed theory about connection of Macro-Gravity-Reality and Quantum-Virtual-Reality exist...
Maurice said:
Whatever other choice you thought to have will never become manifest and therefore remain abstract and not part of our reality. The past is intangible, we cannot change or influence events that happened in the period before the present. The future is intangible just as well; what makes us think that we can change that? Like I said, every moment of time can only be performed in one way and one way only. All other options don't exist, are figments of our imagination, aren't real.

And why you so sure about that? Where you clues? - I will say that for an example so-called String Theory is accepting many dimension, and perhaps even more realities exist, perhaps even infinite number of realities. I will say that the past is reachable even in the "General Relativity Theory", and not like the "Twins' Paradox" but like the "Delorian" in the "Back Into Future", yes-yes-yes, there is a lot of paradoxes appearing, but in theory it is possible. Actually you singularities and Event Horizons is just a theory too...  Same thing may be with a future - who knows it for sure? I not know anybody that checked it.

Mr Maurice, if we gonna accept some theories about Quantum Mind, we can even say that our imagination is somekind of the reality...
Maurice said:
But it's like the Oracle said in The Matrix: "You already made your choice. Now you got to find out why". Once you lived through the moment, you can't go back and choose something else instead.
I think allhighest Oracle, with the all respect have never read popular books about General Relativity .
Maurice said:
Our entire lives take place in the present, the here and now, the singularity between the past and the future. We don't even know the length of time that the 'present' spans, despite living our entire lives in it. Can time be quantized? If so, the present is as small as the smallest time step. If not, then the singularity of the present is infinitessemaly small, probably close to zero - and yet, it's more tangible than either the past or the future, which are abstract concepts derived from our perception of time. Thinking of it in that way, you might even wonder if time really exists.
And that because you have no any rights to say for sure about past, present, and the future, and about reality in general. And again, my question was more like philosophical, but not about the "edge" of the modern Science which is <imho> very far from understanding those question.

For the analogies - I can remind to you, mr Maurice, the dark times where guys even don't know about fields, protons, electrons, and the reality was only what they see. Same may happens with those Plank Stuff. You can also remind the one of the possible explanation of the "weird" habits of the Quantum Stuff - they can back into past. And actually, I think there is no explanation for sure of the Quantum Phenomenons exist, Copenhagen' and so on stuff it is only the matter of agreement.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2017 02:42 PM

Selection? To what? Reality is coincidential to. So selection to coincidence is still coincidence. But its only language. I dont see any house ,,produced" by evolution. All was built by people. House is simplest than club to compare with computer if we told about one bio cell. No way. Evolution by coincidence is like spells and magic.

Yes we dont know future. But we fell that we want good not evil for us. Other people to. So its important to spend life in good. Oersonally I know that after is God. But no all people know and fell it. But if your life are good you fell good and your condition is better. Psyche, body and all person feel better. So we can observe that good life is good for us. We can choice, and our decisions build our own. We should take care for all our person. Not only body but about depth our inside.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 18, 2017 02:53 PM

No, survival of the fittest is not coincidental, a bunch of atoms don't get together like spread out confetti and form something as the heart or a cellular organism, there is a gradual progress to that which takes billions of years, and the complexity you speak of evolves step by step, from the most simple organisms to something such as mammals.

If by coincidental, what you mean is there is no external purpose to life, yes, there isn't. Life may not have evolved. On zillion x zillion of planets, it didn't. For billions of years, it remained quite simple on this one, too, without any level of consciousness or intelligence. It was just bacteria.
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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 18, 2017 02:57 PM

Baronus said:
Selection? To what? Reality is coincidential to. So selection to coincidence is still coincidence. But its only language. I dont see any house ,,produced" by evolution. All was built by people. House is simplest than club to compare with computer if we told about one bio cell. No way. Evolution by coincidence is like spells and magic.

Yes we dont know future. But we fell that we want good not evil for us. Other people to. So its important to spend life in good. Oersonally I know that after is God. But no all people know and fell it. But if your life are good you fell good and your condition is better. Psyche, body and all person feel better. So we can observe that good life is good for us. We can choice, and our decisions build our own. We should take care for all our person. Not only body but about depth our inside.
Well if we gonna try to accept that the human is a product of the Evolution, yes, perhaps a random product, but the hell - billions of years that Nature have! So the computer nad the club will be somekind of the products of evolution too.
And yes, for now I think that the choice is the most important thing in the Universe
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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 18, 2017 03:35 PM

every action has an equal and opposite reaction.



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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 18, 2017 03:51 PM

yogi said:
every action has an equal and opposite reaction.


mr yogi, ^^ I think it is not so good idea to apply those stuff to the Gravity, and to some very precisely models of how our Universe has been "exploded" in the past, etc .

And the question was actually about choices, so how you connect your black-white circle to the importance of choice? Just curios.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 18, 2017 06:45 PM

frostysh said:
What is this 'way' means? - just a words-play?


No, I mean the way one moment evolves into the next. It will only ever do so in one particular way. Even if we conceive tons of other possibilities, those will never become manifest and therefore don't exist. They're abstract. Something happens only because every condition that is needed to make it happen, has been met.

Just a very easy and quick example: this morning you woke up and at some point, you decided to get up and get out of bed. Once that moment was passed, you couldn't go back to the moment you decided to get out and instead decide to remain in bed a little while longer.

I strongly believe time as well as quantum mechanics are emergent effects from something that lies even deeper, something we can't grasp (yet). For quantum mechanics, there are already relatively new theories which might for instance also explain Young's two-slit experiment.
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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 18, 2017 06:52 PM

i was actually commenting on artus post

choice?

healthy people make healthy choices

unhealthy people make unhealthy choices
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 18, 2017 07:04 PM

What has that got to do with evolutionary process not being coincidental? What does biological evolution have to do with conscious choices anyway?

Also, not all types of choice can be evaluated by a parameter of healthy or unhealthy and not every unhealthy choice is made by overall unhealthy people. Causality itself is not normative, neither it is as binary as you make it sound.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2017 07:46 PM

Nothing with sense is produced by coincidence. Coincidence is only name the small piece of biggest plan. Coincidence is only concept of Creator we cant understand. If you study World you see everywhere Hand of Creator! :-) World is art! And its fanatastic :-) And wonderfull!

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 18, 2017 10:20 PM
Edited by frostysh at 12:48, 26 May 2017.

Maurice -
Maurice said:
No, I mean the way one moment evolves into the next. It will only ever do so in one particular way. Even if we conceive tons of other possibilities, those will never become manifest and therefore don't exist. They're abstract. Something happens only because every condition that is needed to make it happen, has been met.

Just a very easy and quick example: this morning you woke up and at some point, you decided to get up and get out of bed. Once that moment was passed, you couldn't go back to the moment you decided to get out and instead decide to remain in bed a little while longer.
Nay, I am disagree, I will say - there is a parallel reality where parallel frostysh have decide to stay on the bed for few second more. Ahhhhnd? . In addition your definition of the 'moment' not satisfying me. What exactly this moment is? In physics we have many strange stuff with a time, those "weird" fields effects in the Electrodynamics coz' Special Relativity stuff, when the field 'can feel' future of someking, if I am not mistaking, we have a strange effects in the Quantum stuff - well, the entire bloody Quantum stuff is strange, looks like particles jumping trough the time - well they can "jump" trough the stuff so-called 'tunnel', so why not trough the time , whahahah, it is difficult. . We have General Relativity, where you can make a real time-journey (like "Back Into Future"), etc.

Yes, you will say "The event is absolute!" (event it is when something happens in space-time, but in the space-time always happens something...), Entropy, bla-bla-bla-, but I will say "How the hell it is connected to the 'choice' of the thinking creature like a frostysh? ", and second "I will say - no the event is not absolute on the Quantum Stuff, or something like that". Why it is so - because we have no understand yet in the how the hell way is connected micro world, and macro world phenomenons. Such as Gravity and Quantum duality, so we cannot make a solid bridge - as the 'event' - it is only the approximation, a very good approximation and it is works, but if we gonna talk on such level as 'what is means reality' etc, we cannot use such approximation for obvious reasons. <imo>
Maurice said:
I strongly believe time as well as quantum mechanics are emergent effects from something that lies even deeper, something we can't grasp (yet)
And I strongly believe into a Santa-Claus and Justice, but I am not forcing anyone to believe into it too, nor I am trying to prove this thing .
Maurice said:
For quantum mechanics, there are already relatively new theories which might for instance also explain Young's two-slit experiment.
What theories? Young' Double Slit - is the standard double slit stuff?

yogi -
yogi said:
i was actually commenting on artus post

choice?

healthy people make healthy choices

unhealthy people make unhealthy choices
Mr yogi - it was brilliant! Unfortunately frostysh is not a very healthy man in the real life, so due to your theory I cannot believe into a healthy things, such those black-white circle, at least without a very good confirmations
Quote:
Eric Hoffer(1976AD)-Communism, Albert Einstein(1929AD)-Nationalism, Steven Weinberg(1999AD)-Religion


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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 18, 2017 11:19 PM

tldr: bacteria are not stupid.

what does natural "selection" have to do with "choice"?

natural selection inherently implies intelligent decision making at a biomolecular level.  the human form is just one manifestation of this process.  insinuating some time devoid of intelligence is absurd, intelligence is natural selection.  i see analogues at the quantum and astronomical levels too; the fundamental law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction implies nothing less profound.
ie. time is a metronome, sing beautifully, and not just because it may attract a mate.

youre right artu, i should have been more precise with my words.  my personal opinion on choice is that health is the determining factor in a beings decision making; or as the buddhists say, all thoughts are simply air trapped in the brain.
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