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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy
Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 19, 2017 12:15 AM
Edited by artu at 14:10, 19 Mar 2017.

yogi said:
tldr: bacteria are not stupid.

what does natural "selection" have to do with "choice"?

natural selection inherently implies intelligent decision making at a biomolecular level.  the human form is just one manifestation of this process.  insinuating some time devoid of intelligence is absurd, intelligence is natural selection.  i see analogues at the quantum and astronomical levels too; the fundamental law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction implies nothing less profound.
ie. time is a metronome, sing beautifully, and not just because it may attract a mate.

youre right artu, i should have been more precise with my words.  my personal opinion on choice is that health is the determining factor in a beings decision making; or as the buddhists say, all thoughts are simply air trapped in the brain.


No, natural selection implies no such thing. Bacteria has no consciousness, it can not be stupid nor clever. That's like saying whales are not bad jumpers or bees have a great sense of humor.  

If what you imply is that natural selection is always a progressive process to something more advanced as if there was an intelligent orchestration on all life, that is not true either. Conditions on earth change, some organisms go through mutations that enable their future generations to exist in these new conditions and some become extinct. There is not an intelligent or purposeful pattern in all of this whatsoever. In the future, all intelligent life on earth may vanish, leaving the world once again to bacteria only or nothing at all in some disastrous cosmic scenario. And this may have nothing to do with choices either, say humanity made very wise choices regarding protecting the environment and then radiation from a super nova blast in some other solar system terminated all life on earth, how is this healthy choices causing healthy results? In this scope, what can healthy even mean?

And I don't understand your dedicated persistence to reduce the concept of causality into "every action has an equal and opposite reaction." What is the opposite of a rainstorm exactly? What is the opposite of living in the big city? Is it to live in a farm, is it not to live at all, is it to live in a cave, is it to commit suicide in the big city? What would opposite even mean, if we are not strictly talking about some Newtonian law of motion? You are trying to compress the complexity of life into a "yin yang" duality, while such duality will always be functionally insufficient even on a semantic basis.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 19, 2017 12:57 AM
Edited by Maurice at 01:01, 19 Mar 2017.

frostysh said:
Nay, I am disagree, I will say - there is a parallel reality where parallel frostysh have decide to stay on the bed for few second more. Ahhhhnd? .


If you believe in alternate realities (where each choice leads to a "split" - and I am ignoring the fact that you'd need the energy content of the entire universe to basically clone the entire universe at every quantum level decision), since multiple paths can lead to the same version, all possibilities must exist simultaneously.

If all possibilities exist simultaneously, then "time" is simply a transition of one universe into another with no apparent preference or desire for any of the other given states, except that it has to differ from the current state. Furthermore, if "time" is nothing more than a transition from one universe into another and multiple paths exist, then "time" as the concept that we know loses all meaning.

This consideration of multiple universes hinges on "time" being a discrete quantity though, as the only discriminant between the various states is a single quantum transition.

And with Young's two-slit experiment I mean the experiment of letting a beam of monochromatic light fall on two narrow slits positioned relatively close to one another. When one slit is covered, you see a Gaussian distribution of light at the detector, as if light acts like it's made up of particles. When both slits allow light to pass through, you see a grating effect, as if light behaves like a wave. If you assume quantum effects are an emergent effect from some system that's beneath it, you can explain both effects in one model.

As for evolution and natural selection, the only thing that survives is the stuff that's able to manipulate and resist its immediate environment. Everything that can't stand up against the conditions that the environment imposes on it, will fall by the wayside. As a natural result, over time, all you're left with is the stuff that's succesful in manipulating and surviving its environmental conditions. Sudden changes in environment can prove disastrous if it cannot adapt to it. It's the primary reason why the dinosaurs went extinct and why current day insects are overall quite a bit smaller than they were around those prehistoric times.

Adapt or die. You will be left with whatever managed to adapt and you won't see anything (except maybe fossils) of whatever failed to do so.
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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 19, 2017 01:30 AM

Despite I am super-mega sleepy - I will say:

1) I am not believing, I am imaging a possible variants of how the things can be.

2) Of course I think you typed something that I am almost toatally disagree.

a) Lol dude, switch on your imagination - for an example the frigging Quantum Insanity can "interfere" with itself, when you have execute a measure experiment, the insanity will "collapse", you can imagine the medium of possible "choices" of frostysh:
... etc
... To lay on the bed for 1 sec more
... To lay on the bed for 2 secs more
... To scream like a madman to disturb any neighborhoods an provoke their horrific revenge.
... etc

as thos frigging bucket of crazy mathematical stuff, that will collapse into a single something, when the event appeared.

b) Where the hell you have found that the time must bee a link, a connection or something like that - perhaps those paralles reality exist only for a 1 sec, the p. Universe born, frostysh have a choice there, and there it collapse or whatever. not by ~14 billions of years, but by a sec. etcetc
so it hinges nothing - the time in the another Universe, can exist, or it may not exist, or it may be a Idkn, a length, or the another dimension of somekind, or a cookies, who the hell know, we even don't know what the hell time is.

c) The parralles Universe can have zillion x zillion dimensions, and perhaps zillion x zillion par. Universes exist - how the hell you check it? O_o.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 19, 2017 12:24 PM

Sorry. Intelligent bacteria? Really? Serious? :-):-):-)
For Gorillaz is hard to find intelligence... 97% gens similiar like people and micro intelligence.
Cell is similliar to computer. Working like was programmed. Who is programmer? Ofcourse God!
DNA replication process is so complicated, so shocking than scientists says miracle of life.
Yes life is a miracle...

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted March 19, 2017 12:36 PM

Baronus said:
Sorry. Intelligent bacteria? Really? Serious? :-):-):-)
For Gorillaz is hard to find intelligence... 97% gens similiar like people and micro intelligence.
Cell is similliar to computer. Working like was programmed. Who is programmer? Ofcourse God!
DNA replication process is so complicated, so shocking than scientists says miracle of life.
Yes life is a miracle...

Well, depending on the modern Theory of Evolution - there is no need of the any God to make the all complexity of the life on the Earth. But of course there is many questionable moments, as in the any Science, but I have doubts that Scientists will use the simpler answers "Because of God.."m they rather will try to find some reasons along.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 19, 2017 10:06 PM

Yes scientist must find reason near thing. Thats right. It doesnt mean that is no God. Science gives answer how God do it not WHO DO IT! :-) Its mistake a lot of scientists who told about God and know nothing about theology... They should tell about things they investigate...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 20, 2017 12:51 AM
Edited by Maurice at 00:54, 20 Mar 2017.

frostysh said:
for an example the frigging Quantum Insanity can "interfere" with itself, when you have execute a measure experiment, the insanity will "collapse",


Ahh, you're touching upon the very pit trap in which many a scientist has fallen in the past. We have a saying here in the Netherlands, "you heard the bell toll, but have no idea where the clapper is to be found",  which basically means you heard something but don't fully grasp the concept or details.

It's a bit like Schrodinger and his cat, where he wondered if the cat was dead or alive when inside a box and the only way to know would be to open the box and look. Besides the fallacy of using a macroscopic event to try and visualise a quantum mechanical principle - not in the least because looking at the cat isn't a destructive process (unless you're Cyclops from X-Men and not wearing your glasses), whereas measuring a quantum state pretty much is - but it also falls short of the fact that the cat doesn't behave in quite the same way as an elementary particle does under quantum mechanics.

The very core of quantum mechanics is that in order to determine the state of such a particle, you have to measure it, while the measurement itself affects the state of the particle. This implies that you can never say anything about the state of a particle before measuring it, save this: it won't be in a state that requires a measurement to begin with. To return to the false comparison of Schrodingers's cat: the answer to the question of whether the cat is dead or alive, is "neither". It's in a state different from either of those, but we can never know what, because we have no way to determine it without interfering with it at the same time.

As a side note, I despise the term "measurement", as that implies human observation of the phenomenon, while what they really mean is an interaction between different particles - regardless of human observation. It's this concept of "measurement" coupled with a proper understanding of what's happening on a quantum level, which has lead to for instance the insane notion that reality doesn't exist until the human brain registers it.

Young's two-slit experiment is actually a very clear case of seeing a quantum mechanical effect in our macroscopic world. The premise of that experiment is that light can exist as a particle or as a wave - since using two slits implies a pattern of destructive and constructive interference. However, this is a serious case of "hearing the bell toll and not knowing where the clapper is", as no actual destructive or constructive interference takes place on a particle level. As such, the notion of "collapse of the wave function" is a false interpretation of what's really happening. Destructive interference implies that whatever occurs at such a spot within the wave annihilates the particle in question. Since this also happens with entire molecules, this simply can't be the case; the total amount of energy released by such a destructive interference would imply the release of a large amount of nuclear energy or something.

What really happens is that the distribution of particles changes. The sum of the total intensity measured by the detector is the same when using 1 or 2 slits, it's just that the distribution is different (Gaussian curve vs. narrow bands). In its free state, we can't say what it looks like and some scientists lately have started to consider that in its free state, it may not even exist in our physical reality, but rather in some weird state beyond the quantum boundary, only to get "pulled into" reality once it encounters another particle, with which it interacts (i.e. "it gets measured", to keep that fallacy going). The wave function that collapses is then nothing else but a probability field at which point it is likely to "materialize" in our physical reality from beyond that quantum boundary, to engage in that interaction, rather than being the partcile itself spread out in our physical reality. Since the probability field looks like a wave, we can actually observe this field with the two-slit experiment. Once the "materialisation" takes place, it acts like a particle as it always has.

Something that I don't really understand, though, is that if you use multiple slits (more than two, in any case), you can create complex interference patterns and thereby very narrowly determine in 3D coordinates where the particle is most likely to interact with other material. This can have usage within the field of holographic projections (seemingly in thin air, so to speak) as well as for medical applications by very narrowly and precisly pinpointing an X-ray beam at a clump of cancercells for instance, severly limiting damage to surrounding healthy tissue.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 20, 2017 02:17 AM

Maurice said:
It's a bit like Schrodinger and his cat, where he wondered if the cat was dead or alive when inside a box and the only way to know would be to open the box and look. Besides the fallacy of using a macroscopic event to try and visualise a quantum mechanical principle - not in the least because looking at the cat isn't a destructive process (unless you're Cyclops from X-Men and not wearing your glasses), whereas measuring a quantum state pretty much is - but it also falls short of the fact that the cat doesn't behave in quite the same way as an elementary particle does under quantum mechanics.


Rather than a fallacy, it's an allegory, a rhetorical way of explaining a chain of events in a way easier to visualize with the familiarity of every day objects. I think people he was addressing were well aware of that, unlike "Quantum Mysticism" web sites that reproduce it. Also, in the original story, one doesn't just look at the cat, there is some sort of a mechanism that releases poison if atoms decay or something like that. Can't remember the exact details.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 20, 2017 06:52 AM

All the guys getting really high on "intelligence" should entertain the consideration for a couple of moments, that, to abuse an ad-slogan, intelligence is nothing without a means to use it, because without said means there is no evolutionary reason to develop it. "Means", in this case, are of course fine-motorical limbs, like hands. Or tentacles.

This is no happenstance.

Which means, intelligence is a (mere) function (and measure) of an organism to manipulate its environment. If the ability of a species to manipulate its environment is limited in a "hard" way, then its intteligence will be limited as well, becaue the species couldn't make use of a more powerful brain.
That changes with the development of tools for environment manipulation (and interaction). Intelligence is just the evolutionary consequence of having the prerequisites to make use of it, and these prerequisites have been an evolutionary process as well.

Of course there are more factors, like social structures (learning behaviour from the "parents" or not, loners or social beings or hive minds, for example), and the environment itself (water or land/air) and so on.
But "intelligence" is an evolutionary follow-up product, not an unexplicable gift.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 20, 2017 09:35 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:36, 20 Mar 2017.

artu said:
Rather than a fallacy, it's an allegory, a rhetorical way of explaining a chain of events in a way easier to visualize with the familiarity of every day objects.


I realise that, I was exaggerating . The problem with allegories with these things is that they often lead to cases of what I described above, "hear the bell toll, but no idea where the clapper is". The allegory itself puts up a smoke screen which blocks the view on the actual subject.

When I was in college, I folllowed a number of various courses and lectures on quantum mechanics and quantum dynamics, which pretty much poisoned my mind with such allegories. It took me quite an effort to get rid of those allegories and get to the essence of what Schrodinger really meant to say as well as understand the real nature of the "wave" of a particle. Pretty much all considerations seem to imply the destructive / constructive interference happens on a physical level, rather than probability level. Small difference in theory, large difference in conceptual understanding.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2017 10:41 AM

Einstein theory is a miracle theory. Darwin built his theory years before. He know nothing about quants, about DNA . Now Darwin is prehistorical science from dark ages. I see he is now used like magical spell. Evolution it, evolution another... Who is evolution? No man no existence. Modern physics tells that all is posibble... Quants, neutrino, bosons and other miracles. Age of Wonders. Biology still lives in 1850 year...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 20, 2017 11:04 AM
Edited by Maurice at 11:07, 20 Mar 2017.

Baronus said:
Einstein theory is a miracle theory. Darwin built his theory years before. He know nothing about quants, about DNA . Now Darwin is prehistorical science from dark ages. I see he is now used like magical spell. Evolution it, evolution another... Who is evolution? No man no existence. Modern physics tells that all is posibble... Quants, neutrino, bosons and other miracles. Age of Wonders. Biology still lives in 1850 year...


Evolution and Darwinism are different from quantum physics, totally different area of expertise. It's like talking about the effects of temperature changes in a small cluster of molecules and the overall weather on the planet. They're not even in the same ballpark.

If you want a clear-cut case of evolution, look at the Spanish Conquistadors who invaded South America a couple hundreds years ago. Diseases like the flu and measles caused thousands upon thousands of casualties among the native population, while they were relatively harmless to the Spanish Conquistadors. In return, though, the Spanish succumbed to jungle diseases that were relatively harmless for the natives.

The reason? Evolution of the viri and bacteria responsible for those diseases and the human immune defense system. In Europe, the human body was in an arms race against diseases like the flu and measles and as that "war" raged through the centuries/millenia, both were able to hone their effectiveness against one another. Then those diseases were unleashed upon a people who had not been in that arms race, mostly due to the ocean in between keeping the ecological systems apart - and those diseases had a field day. Infections running rampant and killing people by the droves, because their immune systems weren't used to those diseases, while those diseases sure as heck knew how to handle the human immune system. The same was true for tropical diseases, for which the Europeans had no immediate response.

Studies of genetics often employ fruitflies, because they're easy to breed and have a relatively short lifespan with an equally fast reproduction rate. It's easy to cross-breed them for specific genetic attributes and observe how those differences enable or disable them to cope with changes in their environment. Spontaneous mutations occur in their DNA during breeding, just as well as for every living being, but given their short lifecycle, it's extremely easy to observe with them - and see how it affects their survival rate based on the environment they live in. Attributes that increase their odds to survive in such a place soon become dominant and prevalent throughout the population, whereas attributes that are useless or even decrease the odds to survive quickly perish and fade out of the population.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2017 06:58 PM

Biology must fit to physics! The same law. Evolution if is must be in DNA! And must be mathematicaly descripted as physics! It cant dont fit! 2 + 2 = 4 in biology, chemistry and in physics!

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 20, 2017 07:35 PM

Hopeless...
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 20, 2017 08:21 PM

If there actually was this intelligent design of the creator you'd have to sue him for negligence allowing all those genetic defects. I'd expect a more solid and less sloppy handiwork here from this kind of superior being.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 20, 2017 10:41 PM

Sorry. It was descripted. In Bible. Firstborn sin. All degenerations are from people not from God. World is broken. We all fell that all is incorect. All people culture is about it.
I told you must read Bible to understand World. All in this Book is 100% logical opposite to science.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 20, 2017 11:03 PM

There is no excuse for collective punishment via guilt by association. Kin liability? That's barbaric.
And what's that supposed to be? "People not from God"? Are there people not created by god? How would that be possible?

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted March 20, 2017 11:19 PM

Baronus mate I know English is not your first language, but your posts are very my way or the highway and very simplistic IMO, to the point they are probably a bit too simplistic to sustain a quality debate with lol
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 20, 2017 11:23 PM

Baronus said:
All in this Book is 100% logical opposite to science.
Lol.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 20, 2017 11:24 PM

Hmm... If I may say, both good and evil actually come from God. And collective punishment doesn't exist because everybody pays his own faults when he/she does them, no one pays those of someone else.
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"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur.
Use this code in Creature Quest! t2QEc#j7h

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