Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy
Thread: The matter of choice - Philosophy This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 20, 2017 11:59 PM

God is said to be omnipotent and omniscient. Yet, those two terms in their own right are contridicting themselves.

Omnipotence implies it's possible to create something that's stronger than oneself. Yet, if something is stronger than oneself, it cannot be defeated, which contradicts the omnipotence part.

Omniscient has a similar contradiction, in that someone who is omniscient would therefore also know what ignorance is. Yet, ignorance is the lack of knowledge about something, which contradicts the omniscient aspect.

Besides that, if God knows all, don't you think it's kinda ... weird how he can judge you after you die for all the things you did in life, while he already knew before you were born that you were going to do everything you will do in life? At the very least would make him an accomplice in everything you do in life, wouldn't you say?
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
AlHazin
AlHazin


Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 21, 2017 12:13 AM
Edited by AlHazin at 00:22, 21 Mar 2017.

No. Well if I had a pen and a board to explain you it would be better. But well.

Asking why God judges us comes to ask directly why do we have to pass by Earth in order to end in Paradise/Hell. Why don't we just exist in one realm forever? That would be simpler.

However, He has purposes why He did it that way. God doesn't write how you will behave, He doesn't make you make things, He just knows as you said what you will do with your free will. Why does He let you be the way you want? Why does He actually leave us a free will? I need more documentation to tell. Now about the omniscience it indeed gets complicated. But here we need to get to know the proper "nature" of God, which is somehow impossible. Well it's not impossible, but the way to get to that knowledge is not easy. Lack of info is the critical issue here.

Edit: you know there's that principle too, in the concept of creating, the creature can't be stronger than the creator.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 21, 2017 12:41 AM
Edited by Gryphs at 07:15, 21 Mar 2017.

AlHazin said:
God doesn't write how you will behave, He doesn't make you make things,
Technically, he does write how you will behave exactly because he knows it. He knows how you will act before you can enact any control over it, meaning your life is pre-plotted. It has to be or God would not be omniscient. Since your life cannot deviate from what God knows, in essence, you have no free will.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 21, 2017 06:09 AM

The omniscience/omnipotence card is a little funny. The classic question is whether God can create a rock he cannot lift. To my poor human mind it seems somehow obvious that there has to be something that is not possible to do or know.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 21, 2017 06:50 AM
Edited by artu at 07:06, 21 Mar 2017.

That's rather a paradox within omnipotence itself and a barely semantic one such as "this statement is a lie." Omniscience is incompatible with free will, that's something else and it's more of an actual nature. The thing is, even the slightest bit of free will indicates that things can go either way, that you have an effect in how events will occur and such a notion can not coexist with knowledge of what will happen next, which omniscience inherently includes.

There are, of course, many deterministic schools of thought that disagree that a thing such as free will does not exist anyway, that our behavior is predetermined by the subconscious, neurological hardwiring or social conditioning. (While I agree that free will is a very compromised concept scientifically, I still think we are capable of choice to a degree, especially in matters regarding slow thinking and big decisions.) The problem for the Abrahamic theologies in this regard would be different though, such pre-determination nullifies the idea of judgement, sin, eternal rewards or punishments, and a God with good will who punishes only when people make the wrong choices. That whole concept is quite shallow and binary with or without the concept of omniscience anyway.
____________
I hope I am mistaking - frostysh

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
AlHazin
AlHazin


Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 21, 2017 07:35 AM

Gryphs said:
Technically, he does write how you will behave exactly because he knows it. He knows how you will act before you can enact any control over it, meaning your life is pre-plotted. It has to be or God would not be omniscient. Since your life cannot deviate from what God knows, in essence, you have no free will.


What I mean is that life will at multiple moments give you a bunch of choices, and that none other than you will be choosing. God just knows in advance what your choice will be, but He doesn't make you make it, He doesn't decide you will do that one. Knowing what you'll choose makes Him knowing all what your life's gonna be, yet your free will is what makes the judgment logical. That's why God doesn't judge madmen, childs... for their acts. There some things though that are indeed plotted.

Let's say Gryphs is born in USA in South Carolina under the name of Amy, with Charles and Jessica as parents, these are plotted and you can't change any of these informations.
However, when Gryphs/Amy will be 20, she will meet Genny who is a drug addict, the kind of persons that just seduce you by their presence, she wukk meet Chad, a history of arts student, and she will get a car to go to college.
If she chooses to hang out with Genny, she will end up in a squat, taking drugs, stealing things,... and one day, she'll kill Jim Parker, a old vietnam veteran and take his cash.
If she accept Chad's invitation, he will be taking her to Alaska some years later and she will regret living their as she dislike fishing. She'll be so disappointed with her life that she'll leave, distracted by her thoughts, she will give the bad medics to Jim Parker, a vietnam veteran, who will die from that (Amy studied pharmacy).
If she buys the car, keeping her independence, she won't study, she'll instead feel an urge to drive to California and leave her family. One day, as she drives, she'll hit Jim Parker, a veteran of vietnam, who shall die.

See. You can have completely different lives. You can achieve a great one pr have a flawed one depending on your choices. However, there are events that will indeed always occur.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 21, 2017 07:45 AM

Quote:
God just knows in advance what your choice will be

That's her (the) point, God can't know my choice before I make it, if I'm actually capable of making a choice. I can change my mind at any given moment.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
AlHazin
AlHazin


Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 21, 2017 07:52 AM

artu said:
God can't know my choice before I make it, if I'm actually capable of making a choice. I can change my mind at any given moment.



That's my (the other) point, which is no matter how much you chnage your mind He knows the outcome in advance. God created mind, too.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 21, 2017 08:04 AM

Even if that was true, it wouldn't change a thing, where ever the mind comes from is irrelevant to whether it is free to make decisions or not and if it is free to do so, you can not foretell them in advance. You would only be able to foretell such decisions if they were based on an automated algorithm, that's not what free will is. You can't "programme" free will in advance, if you can, it's not free, if you can't, it's not predictable. You are trying to defend an intrinsically incompatible claim.
____________
I hope I am mistaking - frostysh

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted March 21, 2017 08:22 AM

The paradox of omnipotence is illogical. God is not a creature. Thus creating someone stronger from uncreated God is nonsense. God is logical. So do not make nonsense. There are apparent world of nonsense that God does not. No evil comes from God only from creatures. With their free will. Evil is not a material reality, which is something created only caused by the bad intentions of using good, or deviance.

Example: Death camps were not built with any negative matter only with the same ingredients as anything. In contrast, what is in them is monstrous intentions  "creators". Evil was their will is not from the world.

God knows what we do, but that does not mean that he controls us. We are contrary to God.
Therefore, the Court of God is not a criminal trial. Only choice. I want to be with God or not? If yes, this is heaven.
No - this mean ,,own world of evil". Closing in the madness we call hell.

...

Ok. Im using translator to do more rich vocabulary. Foreign languages are not my proffesion... :-)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted March 21, 2017 08:26 AM

i don't know if god has a plan for everything. from what i've seen(can it, artu), i don't think it does. it wouldn't be very fun to guide the lives of things continually if you were playing with it, would it? i'd imagine that you'd like to watch and see what happens with your creations; much like an ant farm. sure, you might get some entertainment out of pitting some ants against one another, but the nature of human beings being what it is, they'll create the conflict themselves.

no, if i were that light, i would just create things and sit back to watch what happens. maybe i'd mess with things every now and then, but for the most part, i'd just be entertained enough by watching. it's not like god has any morality like people do; it's not human in the slightest. so horrible things would entertain just as much as beautiful things, from it's pov. that's my guess, anyway.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 21, 2017 10:30 AM
Edited by Gryphs at 10:31, 21 Mar 2017.

AlHazin said:
What I mean is that life will at multiple moments give you a bunch of choices, and that none other than you will be choosing. God just knows in advance what your choice will be, but He doesn't make you make it, He doesn't decide you will do that one. Knowing what you'll choose makes Him knowing all what your life's gonna be, yet your free will is what makes the judgment logical.
You are not given "a bunch of choices" in reality if God already knows what you will ultimately do. Free will cannot exist with an an all knowing entity of any kind, they are antithetical to one another.

To use your example. God knows Amy will take drugs and become a squatter. What will happen?


@Fred79

We all know what you would do with humanity.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 21, 2017 10:55 AM

An omniscient god doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons, but the most compelling is, how utterly boring an omniscient existence would have to be. If an omniscient and omnipotent God would indeed exist, the first thing he'd decree would be an amnesia for himself - or, losing omniscience, because omiscience means an eternity of ultimate and limitless boredom.

Besides - this would make for a really idiotic battle for souls between himself and satan. Knowing game results in advance is such a bummer.

In fact, if you spend a moment to think about it, if there was indeed that kind of god, who had made mankind, then the only real reason for giving them free will would be, "go ahead and SURPRISE ME".

With that out of the way, omnipotence is dealt with in the same fashion. In reality, making unrestrained use of "omnipotence" would cancel "free will", because omnipotence could TRUMP (and suppress) free will. FREE WILL is actually the very stone too heavy for this god to lift, and it doesn't matter much whether he made this stone voluntarily or involuntarily, because the stone exists and therefore omnipotence is out of the window as well.

There is actually a very compelling reason why free will MUST exist in this scheme of things, and that's ACCOUNTABILITY. Only when there actually IS free will, free will can be held accountable for its doings. No free will, no accountability. "Fate, God, The Devil made me do it". This would make the whole concept of a "judgement" invalid.

Which means this: Without free will the whole accountability part of religion is null and void, while WITH free will the whole omniscient and omnipotent part of "god" is null and void.

That's it. Make your pick.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted March 21, 2017 11:00 AM
Edited by Stevie at 11:25, 21 Mar 2017.

Gryphs said:
You are not given "a bunch of choices" in reality if God already knows what you will ultimately do. Free will cannot exist with an all knowing entity of any kind, they are antithetical to one another.

To use your example. God knows Amy will take drugs and become a squatter. What will happen?


Logically, God's foreknowledge is caused, not causing. It's because something happens that God knows about it, not because God knows it will happen. It's no use trying to understand it chronologically, God transcends time.

Amy will take drugs, therefore God knows beforehand. No problem with free will.

As for omnipotence, a rock too heavy to lift for a being that can lift anything is a self-contradiction, just like asking for a square circle. These are logical impossibilities, essentially nothings, and nothing doesn't become something for an omnipotent God to not be able to do.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 21, 2017 11:32 AM

My opinion is that when it comes to something a person finds really important to themselves, the conclusion is usually made before the evidence or argument is found (which I doubt many would agree with when it comes to themselves, btw.).

Therefore I do not believe it makes much sense to discuss these things unless you already agree on the most important stuff.

Another way to think about it is when what makes perfect sense to you makes absolutely no sense to the person you're writing with, how can you then proceed to have a meaningful conversation if there is no common denominator?
____________
Living time backwards

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 21, 2017 11:39 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 11:46, 21 Mar 2017.

@ Stevie
No, you are completely wrong with that, because "foreknowledge" assumes that amy's doings are already DETERMINED: she may not know it, but she WILL take drugs one day. It's her FATE. Nothing she can do about it.
Which means, there is ONE and ONLY one future, and that is the future god "foreknows" at the beginning of time.
You might say, it has already happened, Amy just doesn't know it.

But anyway, read my last post.

Also, I don't think there is a way to know even ONE irrational number in full, say, Pi = 3,14..... - and now an omniscient being would have to know ALL the numbers following that 4. Now think about the fact that the set of irrational numbers is uncountably infinite, which means you have a lot of "infinites" here.
Add quantum mechanics and a couple of phenomenons there - just take the Heisenberg uncertainty - and you'd have to be a very religious man indeed, to still believe in the concept of "omniscience".

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 21, 2017 11:40 AM

There is only one possible "conclusion" if you don't make up intrinsically impossible stuff.

If God knows something "beforehand" it is not transcending time since it exists in it already. Knowledge or anything else can not exist out of time anyway. To transcend time is one of those pseudo-concepts that theologians parrot all the time, yet have no explanation at all about what it actually means or how it can be possible even hypothetically. It's their "get out of jail free card" in such impossible situations and since their customers (the religious)  don't even bother to ask for an explanation about what it actually means to "transcend time," they get away with it. Easy to throw around such rhetoric when you have no obligation or even expectation to actually explain how it would be possible: God is a square with no corners, it's beyond our limits to know how that works. Done.

Causality itself is built in time. You can not exist beyond time in anyway, the very nature of existence demands time. Not to mention, "the thing" people are talking about is an anthropomorphic father figure who says things like "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit," not some sub-atomic quantum wave or anything like that.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted March 21, 2017 11:55 AM

WRONG WRONG WRONG YOU'RE ALL WRONG.



@ gryphs: and just what WOULD i do with it? huh? tell me.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
AlHazin
AlHazin


Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted March 21, 2017 12:20 PM

Stevie answered you Gryphs, Amy would take the drugs because she decided to, not God. He just knew that would happen. Now we can ask why God lets people mess.

artu said:
You would only be able to foretell such decisions if they were based on an automated algorithm, that's not what free will is. You can't "programme" free will in advance, if you can, it's not free, if you can't, it's not predictable. You are trying to defend an intrinsically incompatible claim.


That's the problem with you, you consider God from a human point a view, you resonate like a human and consider God in that condition, which doesn't let you see things from my perspective.
God doesn't bow to mathematical or physical laws, why do you think I started the dimensional thread? Despite it being a failure, it explains how creation works/is supposed to. God creating the principle of existence Himself is as said Stevie out of the dimensions we're bound in. That's why God said: "And tell to humans and genies to try to get out from the bounds of the universe, and they won't" or something like that. We're bound to those laws, we can't escape gravity for example.

How do you think God knows things in advance? Specifically because He is out of time, if He was within it, just like us, He wouldn't know. This is why, in qran, multiple tenses are used, things that happened or are/were to happen are not always in past tense/future tense, as time is irrelevant from a godly "point of view" (as God doesn't have points of views like, again, He has all the view).

Plus, God is infinite, and you can't be more than infinite, can you?

JJ said:
No, you are completely wrong with that, because "foreknowledge" assumes that amy's doings are already DETERMINED.


Again, that's how we humans, know. The only way for us humans to tell things in advance is by determining the factors that will lead to that thing to happen. God, Him, doesn't work that way. He knows how things are going to get determined without determining them or the factors that will lead to that.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 21, 2017 12:42 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 12:42, 21 Mar 2017.

AlHazin said:


Plus, God is infinite, and you can't be more than infinite, can you?
Actually, there are different "kinds" of "infinite" in mathematics, and if you use a term like that only the mathematical view makes any sense at all (otherwise the term isn't defined in any way). There is for example, countably infinite and uncountably infinite, the latter being "more infinite" than the former - you might say it has a higher QUALITY of infiniteness

Quote:
JJ said:
No, you are completely wrong with that, because "foreknowledge" assumes that amy's doings are already DETERMINED.


Again, that's how we humans, know. The only way for us humans to tell things in advance is by determining the factors that will lead to that thing to happen. God, Him, doesn't work that way. He knows how things are going to get determined without determining them or the factors that will lead to that.
*Sigh*
NO! Look, that doesn't make sense, because if you describe a "different kind of "allknowingness" than we humans know - we can't know that. Not even describe it. We have actually no idea, words, image or picture of it, because it assumes a completely differet and unfathomable kind of reality, which is why these discussions make no sense whatsoever: the religious guys say, look, god is the creator and because of that he must be this and that, but when "this and that" is discussed, it ends with the religious guys saying that "this and that" actually isn't "this and that", but god's version of it which is unfathomable for mere mortals - and that makes no sense. If you want to argue that way, you must not give god any attributes at all except "unfathomable" and that's it. Like in, if there is indeed a being that created all this, this being is absolutely indescriable and unfathomable for US - but that's a message you cannot build a religion upon, can you, so in truth the whole discussion is utterly DISHONEST from the religious side.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0569 seconds