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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst hero speciality? (HOMM3)
Thread: Worst hero speciality? (HOMM3) This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
markmasters
markmasters


Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
posted April 13, 2017 02:56 PM

Castle has a cleric specialised in Bless. I think it's interesting that Castle is the worst castle to benefit from bless likely (only griffins and on expert water magic marksmen) somwhat benefit from it, bur shes a monster (ironicaly) with inferno or even fortress

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 13, 2017 08:28 PM

Golemlord said:
Maybe it would be interesting, to have a slow-specialist in opposite to Brissa. Creatures affected with slow would be even more slowly (if it is not OP).

It is OP, I already tried it in WOG. Just notice that Brissa giving 15 of speed at level 40 makes creatures of mid-speed like Storm Elem. faster then Archangels and Phoenixes but if it 1/4 of speed... AAs with 4, Phoenixes with 5? All units moving before any of the enemy? With an army of fast shoothers you can kill everything before even being touched.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 13, 2017 09:10 PM

Haste specialists does'nt work like that, they give +3 speed to level 1 & 2 creatures, +2 speed to level 3 & 4 creatures and +1 speed to level 5 & 6 creatures, unless it is different in WoG?
But I agree a Slow specialist would be OP, Haste and Slow are already very OP, two of the most important spells in the game and they are only cheap level 1 spells.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 07:50 PM

You've made me laugh with those descriptions in the poll's choices, which are accurate, but still funny. I especially liked "hypnotize, the spell that never works"

Yeah, it's true, some of the spells have never worked for me and Hynotize is one of them, which is why I've picked Astral as the most useless hero.

BUT, without going over the long list of heroes in Heroes 3 to see which ones are equally useless I would say that among the useless ones fall also artillery specialists. Maybe they're not as useless as Astral, but how many times do they get to use their specialty (ballista) before it gets destroyed: 1 turn? 2 turns? I'd wager 3 turns at maximum because within 3 turns the ballista usually gets destroyed. Not that it does lots of damage anyway, but still, people usually like to counter your specialty whenever possible.

And then there's the mysticism specialists. With fountains and towns all over the map - no matter which size the map is - you rarely get mysticsm anyway, so why on Earth would you pick a mysticism specialist then?? It's redundant...

And the same goes for eagle eye specialists, and other useless skills specialists, but I'm not gonna list them all.

The good thing about these skills is that they've been improved considerably with WoG, and I pick eagle eye or mysticsm as soon as I get the chance. THAT good they are in WoG, but this poll refers probably to vanilla versions of HOMM

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 25, 2018 07:54 PM

Artillery specialists are gods among mortals, in multiplayer and especially during the first days of the game. Later the specialty becomes useless but it played its role when it mattered.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 08:07 PM

Salamandre said:
Artillery specialists are gods among mortals, in multiplayer and especially during the first days of the game. Later the specialty becomes useless but it played its role when it mattered.


I honestly wouldn't know because my games never end sooner than month 12 xD

But, I'll take your word for it, because I know that others are better than me at this game

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 25, 2018 08:30 PM

Is never late to learn:

maretti about artillery specialists
xarfax on same, yet somehow nuanced

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 08:55 PM

Salamandre said:
Is never late to learn:

maretti about artillery specialists
xarfax on same, yet somehow nuanced


Regarding the maretti link... he only makes a short reference in the 1st post on that page, but doesn't really says anything else about why artillery specialists are good or bad. I have read all posts on that page and I've stopped reading because 90% of the posts were about map editing and stuff like that

Regarding the xarfax link... the guy is making some good points indeed (I agree that artillery specialists can clear the map a bit faster than armorer specialists for example, even if for the only reason that they start with ballista, which is an excellent ranged "creature" early on).

I don't agree, however, that a double-strike ballista can take down 2-3 level 7 UPGRADED creatures in mid-late game. Can it?? I mean, sure it can if the artillery specialists has like 15-20 more attack then the enemy hero's defense, but otherwise I don't see how that can happen. Ok, maybe with bless, precision and bow of the sharpshooter that might happen when attacking hydras/behemoths, but unbuffed and attacking Archanagels for example, or even Titans... not see it happening

Also, it's always that risky thing that the enemy might simply decide to take your ballista down first, at which point you have no specialty anymore, while your opponent is still benefiting from whatever his specialty is. But... I agree that artillery specialists are better than Astral, which was the main point of this thread. Probably they're even preferred in normal games that people play in competitions, but the way I used to play with my friend (clear the map and build our armies over 11 months and in month 12 we fight one epic last battle at the end of the game) playing artillery specialists was a bad option because the opponent would most likely have an armorer / offense specialist and would whoop the other dude's a55

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted August 25, 2018 10:34 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 00:04, 26 Aug 2018.

markmasters said:
Castle has a cleric specialised in Bless. I think it's interesting that Castle is the worst castle to benefit from bless likely (only griffins and on expert water magic marksmen) somwhat benefit from it, bur shes a monster (ironicaly) with inferno or even fortress


I wanted to react on that actually and develop a bit on your point, since the appear of the concept of best and worse about Heroes 3 features. It's a bit off topic but it's not that bad.

It's interesting to identify skills or spells, creatures, heroes or even whole factions as being good or bad, but one should not forget the meaning we give to these qualifiers in the game. So in a way it's nice to have an idea on what is to be seeked out and what is to be avoided. Yet, this remains a primary approach that helps with the beginning of the game and not on an expert level.

As stated above Artillery skill usually means you begin with a Ballista (worth 2500 gold + the 1000 gold and 5 woods of the Blacksmith), with 250 health and good damage for the start of the game. When I play Inferno I usually start with Pyre solely for that, even if afterwards I trash her for a better hero when possible, as she will have fulfilled her mission (clearing the area and accessing the ressources and such).

To define what we call good or bad, in this case specialties, it's more about what is easy to put into play versus what is a very specifically oriented feature: Pathfinding is a good skill on some maps, and it is completely useless on others, and so are a lot of other skills.

Because if one goes and defines a skill or specialty as being bad than why would it have it been implemented in the first time? Eagle Eye is reknown for being better left alone, yet when NWC created it they gave it a serious thought about the factions that don't happen to get high level mage guilds yet need high level spells. It all depends on conditions the map is set in. Sometimes your main heroes can't leave the front without losing a couple of precious towns, and won't get back to the castles with level 4/5 mage guilds, you'll need Scholar. Sometimes you won't have access to good spells, not have enough ressources to build up mage guilds, you'll need Eagle Eye. Sometimes you won't have any well, will face hit and run, you'll need Mysticism.

The main idea I want to share is to not systematically refuse certain skills just because they are said to be avoided, one has to think a bit and act according to the strategy he can put into play.


Also, I don't agree when you say Mirlanda's weakness specialty is redundant because there is a creature that does cast the same spell when it attacks.

Actually even if Dragon Flies cast weakness, first of all in vanilla and AB they did not, moreover they don't cast it at expert level (safe if the battle takes place on magic plains), Mirlanda might not cast it at expert naturally but I don't need to recall anyone how many times Fortress heroes are offered Water Magic.

Moreover, Heroes 3 is not a game where you are conditioned to use heroes of your faction's town: Orrin works very good with Tower, Craag Hack can be used with Fortress and so on. Actually most heroes can be used with any factions, the only limitations are creature specialists -and of course Necropolis heroes due to their necromantic tendency. So Mirlanda can work just fine with a lot of towns (put aside that her class is not the best).

I agree that most of the time your army's alignment will match your hero's faction, but that's not a sine qua non condition nor an imposed limitation. That's why in the tavern you'll see a lot of different heroes and not only those belonging to the town the tavern is built in.

So good and bad actually stand for wide range of use versus very specific and occasional use. This doens't include WoG modifications and MP rules. I play the standard versions of Heroes 3 and I play with them with no rules.

-------

Now to answer the main topic:

-Melodia: the spell coupled with the skill can give some needed critical hits;
-Uland: when you can restore enough HP and salvage your level 7 you will indeed say wow, as cure is not as efficient but easier to get than Resurrection;
-Coronius: helps you get down Utopiasí Dragons and get what is guarded by level 7 (which is usually valuable) easier;
-I don't acknowledge Conflux. There is only one Holy Land and it's called Forge;
-Ignatius: starts with a lot of Imps, Straker: can afford taking Walking Dead with him without being slowed down, and later on Zombies as well, Piquedram: with Obsidian Gargoyles can be used to block shooters because of +1 speed and take out Marksmen or Magogs way easier needless to say it works greater on snow;
-Astral: can take out creatures most efficiently in the start of the game;
-Gird: gets very decent damage;
-Mirlanda: explained earlier;
-Navigation & co. Explained as well. As an abstract Navigation is great when you have kilometres of waters to constantly cross and catch heroes/flee from them, Eagle Eye when you're obliged to use it, First Aid is like Uland's Cure but working with Black Dragons too, Mysticism can help you with tough/bad maps especially when you get the artifacts which go with it and are found everywhere.

If I have to choose the least useful specialty, I'd choose the Conflux hero as I see it is simply bad design due to hasted development.

Will I choose Gunnar or Kyrre as my main due to their Logistics specialty? Yes. Can I win a game without Scouts/Caravans/Secondary Heroes? No. And on these heroes I will need those bad skills.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 11:05 PM
Edited by monere at 23:06, 25 Aug 2018.

AlHazin... theoretically, you are right (every skill has its intended purpose), but practically you're not. How many times have you needed eagle eye or mysticism to progress into a game?

Also, how can Astral be useful when hypnotize doesn't work? And I'm not making fun of you here, I am honestly telling you that that spell does not work. In 20 years of playing Heroes I haven't managed to cast it once, every time I've tried it has told me that the creatures are too strong to be hypnotized, or that my hero is too weak to cast this spell, or something along these lines (I don't really remember the exact message because I've tried using the spell several times and I've seen it hadn't worked, so I've stopped trying). The only creatures I have not tried it on are the peasants, but in all honesty, you don't need hypnotize (or any other spell) to kill peasants

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 25, 2018 11:27 PM

This is because the designers didn't bother to provide accurate descriptions for a lot of spells, as resurrect, hypnotize, fire wall, cure, summon etc. So you tried a couple of times then gave up because you had no clue what to expect.
Such details have been fixed in "spells uncovered" mod for Era, and we see that with 10 spell power you can hypnotize 260 HP, so thats not that bad once you know and you can plan. Anyway, I don't think hypnotize can be used as winning spell but more as a tool to get control of last opponent units and start resurrect phase. In addition to blind for example.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2018 11:50 PM

Salamandre said:
This is because the designers didn't bother to provide accurate descriptions for a lot of spells, as resurrect, hypnotize, fire wall, cure, summon etc. So you tried a couple of times then gave up because you had no clue what to expect.
Such details have been fixed in "spells uncovered" mod for Era, and we see that with 10 spell power you can hypnotize 260 HP, so thats not that bad once you know and you can plan. Anyway, I don't think hypnotize can be used as winning spell but more as a tool to get control of last opponent units and start resurrect phase. In addition to blind for example.


I don't think I've ever played Era, so probably that's why the spell doesn't work. I only have WoG installed, and with WoG it doesn't work.

Oh well, if you can control 26 HPs for each 1 SP that's pretty neat indeed. I'm curious now... how is Astral's specialty affected by the Era mod??

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted August 26, 2018 12:11 AM

I remember using Astral in V 1.00 and his spell worked just fine. I could clear level 1/2 creatures guarding mines. Itís indeed the lack of documentation, available in the help files.

When you say it never worked for you I believe you, but doing some more testing or reading the ones that have been done long ago will show you how it works in detail.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 12:15 AM

AlHazin said:
I remember using Astral in V 1.00 and his spell worked just fine. I could clear level 1/2 creatures guarding mines. Itís indeed the lack of documentation, available in the help files.

When you say it never worked for you I believe you, but doing some more testing or reading the ones that have been done long ago will show you how it works in detail.


Well, if you guys say it's working with the Era mod I have no reasons to doubt it. I was just speaking of my personal experience, but it's good that they've fixed it. A game like this deserves continuous attention

Cheers!

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 26, 2018 12:22 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:28, 26 Aug 2018.

No, What I said is that the Era mod fixed the display of details, it didn't change how it works. It only shows how much HP resurrect, animate dead, hypnotize, summon elemental etc will allow. For both vanilla and wog, for every 1 spell power you hypnotize 26 HP.  

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 09:20 AM
Edited by monere at 10:05, 26 Aug 2018.

Salamandre said:
No, What I said is that the Era mod fixed the display of details, it didn't change how it works. It only shows how much HP resurrect, animate dead, hypnotize, summon elemental etc will allow. For both vanilla and wog, for every 1 spell power you hypnotize 26 HP.  


So, is it possible then that the spell never worked for me because I was trying to hypnotize... let's say 15 infernal troglodytes and the spell only works if the TOTAL number of HPs in a STACK is lower or equal to the 26 x my hero's SP???

That's the only explanation I can think of for why it never worked. Actually, I'm just gonna go and test this right now. Be right back...

PS: what's the difference in hypnotizing power between no / basic / adv / exp AIR magic for this spell??

EDIT: not sure how to test this because AI splits its army when battle starts, so I can't get a single stack of enemy creatures no matter what. I did restart the game a dozen times or so and at one time I did manage to get all 14 imps in the same stack and I managed to hypnotize them with Astral, even though his spell power was 2 and the imps had a total HPs of 56. So, Astral can indeed cast Hypnotize with increased power (normally, any other hero should have not been able to hypnotize more than 52 HPs with 2 spell power). I never got the chance to see this, though, because the AI splits its creatures.

Oh well, at least I managed to make the spell work for the 1st time in... 20 years LMAO. I'm at peace now xD

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 26, 2018 09:31 AM

Hypnotize spell
____________
Era II mods and utilities

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 09:59 AM
Edited by Ben80 at 10:01, 26 Aug 2018.

monere said:
AlHazin... theoretically, you are right (every skill has its intended purpose), but practically you're not. How many times have you needed eagle eye or mysticism to progress into a game?

Also, how can Astral be useful when hypnotize doesn't work? And I'm not making fun of you here, I am honestly telling you that that spell does not work. In 20 years of playing Heroes I haven't managed to cast it once, every time I've tried it has told me that the creatures are too strong to be hypnotized, or that my hero is too weak to cast this spell, or something along these lines (I don't really remember the exact message because I've tried using the spell several times and I've seen it hadn't worked, so I've stopped trying). The only creatures I have not tried it on are the peasants, but in all honesty, you don't need hypnotize (or any other spell) to kill peasants


Some spells require high skill of player and can be useful not in most situations. This is game design of Heroes 3, and such design have some advantageous.
For example, up to last times I thought Land Mines are useless, but after 15 years of my Heroes 3 experience I become able to use it very efficently.

And as wrote Salamandre many times - our estimates of skills/spells are derived from current playing style, our game maps, our game templates. So, these estimates are not final true.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 26, 2018 10:06 AM

Ben80 said:

For example, up to last times I thought Land Mines are useless, but after 15 years of my Heroes 3 experience I become able to use it very efficently.

Please teach me how and when to use Land Mines then, it is one of the spells I never cast. The problem is the spell actually does'nt do anything until someone steps on them, spells like Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Meteor Shower and Implosion destroys the enemy instantly, which is often much more useful, especially if facing ranged units.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 26, 2018 10:12 AM

Well, each spell has its own damage value, and sometimes you need that exact damage, not another. So more variations, more opportunities. Sure some spells will be almost never used but also they can be open field for modders/mapmakers where they actually get some importance, and this is what I like about when fun is diversified.

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