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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst hero speciality? (HOMM3)
Thread: Worst hero speciality? (HOMM3) This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:21 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Ben80 said:

For example, up to last times I thought Land Mines are useless, but after 15 years of my Heroes 3 experience I become able to use it very efficently.

Please teach me how and when to use Land Mines then, it is one of the spells I never cast. The problem is the spell actually does'nt do anything until someone steps on them, spells like Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Meteor Shower and Implosion destroys the enemy instantly, which is often much more useful, especially if facing ranged units.


I use following technique:
part of my units are used as goal for AI and part of my units are used as obstacles for AI. For example, you have several stacks by 2 Familiars, several stacks by 1 Familiar and additionally for example 1 strong stack. So, you have casted Mines, make turnes by your units - place Familiars in so manner that AI will try to hit stacks with 2 Familiars, ignoring your stacks with 1 Familiar (this is why you can use these stacks as obstackles, driving AI directly into Mines).

You can train a bit for example in Dwarves Bank Creature, in Nagas Bank Creature (though it is usually harder despite fact that 2-hex creatures generally have more probability to step on Mines).

So, I have found that this spell is very useful at Expert and Advanced level (huge summary damage) and only rarely useful at Basic level.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:22 AM

Ben80 said:
Some spells require high skill of player and can be useful not in most situations. This is game design of Heroes 3, and such design have some advantageous.
For example, up to last times I thought Land Mines are useless, but after 15 years of my Heroes 3 experience I become able to use it very efficently.

And as wrote Salamandre many times - our estimates of skills/spells are derived from current playing style, our game maps, our game templates. So, these estimates are not final true.


Yeah, I'm beginning to agree with you now that I've finally managed to see Hypnotize in action (see my NEWLY edited post above) for the 1st time.

Also, speaking of "useless" spells... I have recently started liking the quicksand spell, because of the lame ass Hell Hydra (that's level 8 hydra in WoG).

Fortress is one of my 3 favorite Heroes towns EVER, and so, naturally, I LOVE the hydras. Well, not in WoG, not when I'm playing against it and not when it's rank 10/ Only God knows how I hate that creature (it can't be slowed, it can't be blinded, it can't be berserkered, it can't be anything, and to make it even gay it has double strike, damage blocking and fire shield... at rank 10 I mean. So, basically, the only ways to deal with it is 1) by not dealing with it, at which point it comes and butchers you, and 2) immobilize / block it somehow using the terrain obstacles and other creature stacks and take it down with archers, but this method is pretty hard to do because you have to find the right battlefield in order to be able to block the hell hydra using the terrain obstacles, friend/foe creature stacks, and force field)

Anyway, assuming all these conditions are met (there's plenty of obstacles on the battlefield and plenty of creature stacks to allow you to cast force field in the right spot) you can then shoot the hydras down over many many MANY turns with your archers, because they will block A LOT of the damage you deal. That's one way to keep the hydras far.

The other way (which is actually the point I was trying to make) is using quicksand. It's not as good as force field, but I've had games when I didn't have force field and the only spell that could slow that b1tch of a creature down has been quicksand. And I've been lucky enough for the system to randomly place 2 of the quicksand pools RIGHT in the path of the hydras, basically slowing its reaching of my army for 2 turns, because it had to take a longer path to reach me because the shorter one was blocked by my thousands of skeletons and the AI's creature stacks.

Speaking of "useless" spells, huh

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:32 AM

monere said:


Speaking of "useless" spells, huh


I have writed some text but then see you reply...
Still I'm making this new post:

Returning to Hypnotize...
To be more concrete - some situations when it is useful.

1) Instead of simply kill some enemy stack by Lighting Bolt you can Hypnotize it. And this hypnotized stack will do damage to other enemy units (for example, hypnotized stack is archers, or Cerbers, or Harpies and so on) during next several battle rounds.

2) Hypnotized stack have unique ability - you control it but enemy can not damage it. It can be used - as obstacle to prevent some enemy stacks movement. Sometimes it very useful.

These 2 approaches you can combine...

3) Use hypnotised stack to deprive counter-attack from some strong enemy stack.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 26, 2018 10:33 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 10:39, 26 Aug 2018.

monere said:
I hate that creature (it can't be slowed, it can't be blinded, it can't be berserkered, it can't be anything,


Thats why I prefer wog and personal settings. It is a shame some of the strongest level 7 units can be effectively put out from battle on first round by a simple level 2 spell.

fun battle using mines and quick sand.

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:38 AM

Salamandre said:
monere said:
I hate that creature (it can't be slowed, it can't be blinded, it can't be berserkered, it can't be anything,


Thats why I prefer wog and personal settings. It is a shame some of the strongest level 7 units can be effectively put out from battle on first round by a simple level 2 spell.


I have tried to make my personal settings but instead of produce some Heroes 3 mod it lead me only to more deep knowledge of original Heroes 3...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:56 AM

Salamandre said:
monere said:
I hate that creature (it can't be slowed, it can't be blinded, it can't be berserkered, it can't be anything,


Thats why I prefer wog and personal settings. It is a shame some of the strongest level 7 units can be effectively put out from battle on first round by a simple level 2 spell.

fun battle using mines and quick sand.


fun indeed

Now, I wonder if the guy playing the crusader had known beforehand the paths that the champion would take, because he's PERFECTLY evaded all scenarios in which the champion could have hit him. Unless he's a developer and knows exactly how the AI behaves, he's been either too lucky, or knows something we don't.

Also, those mines deal HUGE damage. When I use them they usually do around 150 damage, but here they dealt 285, without even having Earth magic. This looked like WoG (or a variation of it anyway), so I'm wondering whether the mines's damage has been modified...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 10:59 AM
Edited by monere at 11:00, 26 Aug 2018.

Ben80 said:
I have writed some text but then see you reply...
Still I'm making this new post:

Returning to Hypnotize...
To be more concrete - some situations when it is useful.

1) Instead of simply kill some enemy stack by Lighting Bolt you can Hypnotize it. And this hypnotized stack will do damage to other enemy units (for example, hypnotized stack is archers, or Cerbers, or Harpies and so on) during next several battle rounds.

2) Hypnotized stack have unique ability - you control it but enemy can not damage it. It can be used - as obstacle to prevent some enemy stacks movement. Sometimes it very useful.

These 2 approaches you can combine...

3) Use hypnotised stack to deprive counter-attack from some strong enemy stack.


Well, if you put it like this... the spell does indeed look useful. Too bad I'm not smart enough to figure these things on my own, or else I might have won many more times against my friend when we had played hotseat games 16-17 years ago

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 26, 2018 11:03 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:06, 26 Aug 2018.

*Quicksand is actually a great spell, I use it often and if you spam it it can render the enemy completely useless! (Not really useful against fliers or ranged units though.)

*Land Mines would be better if they at least stopped the enemy like Quicksand.
@Ben80 So you use it in Naga Banks and Dwarven Treasuries?, yeah I would probably prefer mass Slow/Haste/Prayer instead, also cheaper to cast. (Even though I buffed the damage of Land Mine in my game, I never feel like casting it.)

*Hypnotize: There is actually one great use for Hypnotize, cast them on enemy Enchanters and they will cast mass spells on YOU instead.
It can also be used to make the enemy open the gate in sieges.
It can be used to attack a dangerous enemy unit, to take away it's retaliation.
The problem is the amount of hp it affects is VERY low. (I buffed this spell in my game.)

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 11:15 AM

phoenix4ever said:

@Ben80 So you use it in Naga Banks and Dwarven Treasuries?, yeah I would probably prefer mass Slow/Haste/Prayer instead, also cheaper to cast. (Even though I buffed the damage of Land Mine in my game, I never feel like casting it.)



Mass Slow/Haste (if only you have it at Exper Level) will help you only if you have strong army or at least 1 strong stack. But Land Mines can help if you have very weak army.

I think because of all players very quickly switch to Earth magic Schools, understanding of some useful spells go slowly...
At this moment I'm ready to take any magic school offered to hero (depending on spells which I already have, of course).

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 26, 2018 11:18 AM
Edited by Ben80 at 11:28, 26 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:

It can also be used to make the enemy open the gate in sieges.



No, it is impossible by game mechanics...

phoenix4ever said:

The problem is the amount of hp it affects is VERY low. (I buffed this spell in my game.)


Player-humans often have stacks with 1 creature to take retaliation of your stacks. So, you can force such stacks take retaliations from enemy stacks, not yours.
AI also often have weak stacks which can be taken under Hypnotize.

Returning to player styles... Earlier I have considered Mirth as useless because of I very rarely mixed different fractions, so usually I always had +2 or +3 Morale. However, as I see in streams of strong players they  often have Morale -1 or 0... However, at Basic level this spell very rarely useful, of course... Though, again, as I see in video streams, strong players often have only 1 strong stack (Vyvernes or Angels).


Land Mines in summary can damage enemy more than Armageddon at very moderate Magic power (but at Expert or Advanced level of Fire Magic).
Who will refuse such opportunity ? Of course it require skill unlike Slow/Haste...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 11:24 AM

phoenix4ever said:
There is actually one great use for Hypnotize, cast them on enemy Enchanters and they will cast mass spells on YOU instead.
It can also be used to make the enemy open the gate in sieges.


Neat! Double neat! I've learned so many new uses of seemingly useless spells over the last 2 days that I'm starting to wonder if I even know anything about playing Heroes at all...

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 26, 2018 11:29 AM

monere said:
.Unless he's a developer and knows exactly how the AI behaves, he's been either too lucky, or knows something we don't.


Change "we" by "I" then is correct. Cavaliers/Champions use jousting attack, which has a scripted movement in order to optimize damage. So the guy is just using his brain to figure where they would go.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 26, 2018 11:33 AM

Salamandre said:
monere said:
.Unless he's a developer and knows exactly how the AI behaves, he's been either too lucky, or knows something we don't.


Change "we" by "I" then is correct. Cavaliers/Champions use jousting attack, which has a scripted movement in order to optimize damage. So the guy is just using his brain to figure where they would go.


Got it

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