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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Why I prefer racial factions over thematic ones
Thread: Why I prefer racial factions over thematic ones This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 13, 2017 01:41 PM

Why I prefer racial factions over thematic ones

Long story short, I was pondering over this issue while walking my dog and came to the conclusion that I prefer racial factions over thematic ones, as the title says. It's just my personal opinion which pretty much matters nothing in the greater picture, but allow me to explain a few of the reasons why I prefer the racial factions.

Firstly, lore. I do believe you can create better lore using racial factions than you could with the thematic factions, simply because you can do more with the lore of a racial faction than what you could with a thematic one. To illustrate this point I will use H3 and H5's nature factions as an example, though disregarding their actual Initially you might think "but hey, you could write loads of lore about why centaurs, dwarfs, and elves are together in one faction, that could be interesting." And yes, that is true. But then again, you could write way more lore if these three each belonged to their own factions, with different backgrounds, cultures, religions, and military structure. Simply put, it would open up for a bigger, richer, and more interesting setting. Instead of eight thematic factions, you could possibly have twelve or even more. And as far as I know, there is more advantages than disadvantages in more factions.
Also, I would like to point out a few things in regards to the lore; Firstly, I'm not defending Ashan. It is a pretty poor setting and still should be abandoned for a new one. Secondly, lore is more important than you might think. Unless you really want to move around units to different factions constantly, which provides little actual advantage when it comes to it, a deeper lore only helps making the setting all the more interesting, given the lore is actually well written and that you can fairly easily access it. And lastly, if you haven't noticed, I am quite fond of lore. It is what makes a setting after all.

Next, I want to talk a little logic behind a setting. What makes more sense? Having all elven troops being archers, or having some being swordsmen or magic users as well? I would say the latter, and from a logical perspective I believe most would agree with me. It makes no sense, and not to speak of a waste of potential, to not have a race fill multiple roles in an army. You could have so many interesting units (from my perspective of course) rather than having a bunch of random mythological creatures and calling it an army.

Lastly, I just want to touch on the "but wouldn't having the unit slots be filled with mythological creatures be more interesting?" And yes it would, if there was little to no deeper lore. While a wide variety of mythological creatures is most certain welcome, deep lore should also be important. In some case these can fortunately be combined, such as having elves riding pegasus or similar mounted units. The mythological units should of course be a part of the factions, I'm not saying we should go full warhammer fantasy all armies is just different units of one race, I'm just saying that having the factions being more racial than purely thematic is the more interesting option. But that's just my opinion.

Also, if you are wondering why this is in the volcanic wasteland, I wasn't sure where to put it. It is a tread of my personal opinion on fantasy settings in general after all.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted April 13, 2017 02:24 PM

personally I am not a racist because I am a themist lol

bear in mind the deepest lore is quality over quantity not quantity over quality, it is only theoretical and not realistic to write in hundreds of factions and still create a playable balanced game, check StarCraft with the three perfectly balanced factions which took 15 years of patch and constant playing by everyone in Korea to achieve balance,
also the deepest lore is as good as garbage without the deepest story, you want the well constructed story more than the fluff, one can more easily write a great little fairy tale or morality play to satisfy a player with a themist approach rather than waste the time and energy to ramble on a hundred years about twenty castes of goblin and what a troglodyte eats for breakfast, boooring lol

furthermore be sure to note Heroes deliberately uses a stereotypical cliche which is why the elf unit is portrayed as a handsome bloke who shoots his bow, it is a best approximation of an elf but does not mean all of the elves are like that in the deep lore because the elf heroes can still do anything a human hero can do, albeit it would be good to have a centaur who can actively swap spear and bow or an elf who can cast spells and shoot and what have you cheers lol
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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 13, 2017 03:15 PM

A things I would just like to point out:

Starcraft is a game heavily focused on esport, so of course balance would be important. It's not fair to compare a game like that with one with more focus on story than online player vs player gameplay. And might I add, for games with more story in mind more factions is a greater advantage, as long as you don't go over the top. 12 factions is not unreasonable, 25 is.

What I wrote was without story in mind and for a setting in general. A well written story is important in pretty much everything, but the deep lore and the setting does not depend on the story beyond the history of the world (which is a part of the deeper lore)

Also, we can't take the quality of the lore into account, as it depends on whoever writes it. But with a good write a bigger quantity of quality lore would be better than less of it.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted April 13, 2017 03:35 PM

Quote:
It's not fair to compare a game like that with one with more focus on story than online player vs player gameplay.


Heroes was never about lore, it was just about heroes. That's why kreegans look like devils and not like zergs or who knows what. Frankly I had no idea what the heroes story was about until h6, I didn't play the campaigns so I thought h5 was set in the same universe as the previous games, since the factions looked similar. Dungeon was more changed and I didn't like the new units, but the essential was there and since h4 added orcs and bandits I didn't pay too much attention. I didn't even know what the original universe was like, I played h2-h4 campaigns, but didn't pay too much attention to the story.

What started it all was heroes 6 necropolis reveal, to be more specific, the uncle fester lich wannabe, and I was like wtf is this sh1t, so I did some research. Found out about the old universe and the truckload of crap that is Ashan.

From that day on I chant Ashan belongs in a trashcan.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted April 13, 2017 03:59 PM

for sure Heroes had no or very little focus on story until Armageddon's Blade and after, Heroes 1 2 and 3 RoE were very gameplay oriented and had less of a story going on in them than StarCraft did lol

also bear in mind one can have 12 thematic factions and easily cover most everything in pop culture mythology, while if you have the 12 select racism factions full of dwarves or full of mostly nagas or whatever you will have to cut many well known and familiar creatures to make room lol

by all means a deepest lore and a good story would not be an either/or scenario except that erwin's Might and Magic Reference Team/Pot Smoker Team were able to write a lot of deep (if crap) lore but could barely come up with a single good story, whether talent or time, while NWC Terry Ray constructed brilliant stories which did what they set out to do but did not go too much into huge deepest lore depth,
when one has a tight deadline for a game one's time must be managed, the goal is to immerse the player so in practice it is better to focus the time writing the great script with compelling story beats for a map that will be in the game and will be played than writing the blah blah blah useless extraneous fluff on the website or the companion book or some such for a superfan lol
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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 13, 2017 04:13 PM
Edited by Mediczero at 16:14, 13 Apr 2017.

You guys do know that this isn't about heroes specifically, but fantasy strategy games in general? All I really did was using heroes 3 & 5's nature factions to illustrate my opinion, as it was relevant to the forum. I know pretty damn well that there is no way that you people are ever going to agree with me on the matter of heroes games.
In hindsight I should have used more examples.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted April 13, 2017 04:26 PM

I will actually bet we could agree on many things and only disagree on trivial things, not that agreeing or not makes an argument more or less valid anyway lol
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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 13, 2017 04:34 PM

Well to my knowledge people can agree on the strangest of things.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted April 13, 2017 05:14 PM

so, how's that request I gave is going along?
____________
Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
* * *
"Ashan to the Trashcan" - LizardWarrior

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted April 13, 2017 05:34 PM

Kipshasz said:
so, how's that request I gave is going along?


do not worry I am shipping the plutonium on Friday cheers lol
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted April 15, 2017 04:50 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 19:38, 15 Apr 2017.

Themes are more macro scale than races, with the assumption that several races are able to compete for leadership positions, i.e. in H3 you could have troglodyte, human, and minotaur dungeon heroes. They were all a part of a conglomeration of powers that were collectively known as "dungeon". If you were to compare that to, for example, h5 sylvan, you have more of an American south plantation system going on, with the heroes being exclusively elves and then everybody else are the ******s. Of course in that scenario all of the other creatures are beastial with the exception of sprites, who we might assume have a personality and temperament that renders them more-or-less incapable of leadership. I don't believe the lore on sprites is ever hashed out but they appear to sit around in bushes and every 7 days they have babies so you can recruit them to go kill for you.

This entire conversation is academic masturbation, as the designers of the dead franchise never spelled this out for us, nor has it been explored or ever will be as explored as other far more in depths universes have been, such as Forgotten Realms or Star Wars. Most of the remnants of active Heroes players are unemployed Eastern European young adult males and they don't have the capacity to make official lore, not that Heroes was ever famous for its lore even when it was a mainstream game. H3 sold well because of its diverse fractions, adventure map, and satisfying objective to carve out an empire. Computer games in the 1990s were still somewhat relegated to the nerdy population and engines didn't yet have the power for mass multi combat or highly detailed 3d worlds. These days the world and demographics are different from just 20 years ago: regular video game usage is correlated with underachievement, dropouts, depression, and a general tendency of sucking at life, and the majority of its users would have little attraction towards a heroes style game.

If there were another well-funded Heroes game, which there won't be because nobody is stupid enough to make that investment, I would prefer thematic factions.
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kookastar
kookastar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted April 20, 2017 10:19 AM

I want to win the lotto and fund the making of an old school HOMM game.  It's time to bring the factions back to the people
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uhuh

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted April 20, 2017 11:17 AM

Best life goal ever?
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted April 20, 2017 12:29 PM

Elvin said:
Best life goal ever?

Yes.
____________
Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
* * *
"Ashan to the Trashcan" - LizardWarrior

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 20, 2017 12:32 PM

Isn't the phrase "power to the people"?

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted April 20, 2017 12:36 PM

Blizzardboy said:
Themes are more macro scale than races, with the assumption that several races are able to compete for leadership positions, i.e. in H3 you could have troglodyte, human, and minotaur dungeon heroes. They were all a part of a conglomeration of powers that were collectively known as "dungeon". If you were to compare that to, for example, h5 sylvan, you have more of an American south plantation system going on, with the heroes being exclusively elves and then everybody else are the ******s. Of course in that scenario all of the other creatures are beastial with the exception of sprites, who we might assume have a personality and temperament that renders them more-or-less incapable of leadership. I don't believe the lore on sprites is ever hashed out but they appear to sit around in bushes and every 7 days they have babies so you can recruit them to go kill for you.

This entire conversation is academic masturbation, as the designers of the dead franchise never spelled this out for us, nor has it been explored or ever will be as explored as other far more in depths universes have been, such as Forgotten Realms or Star Wars. lol


actually if you build it they will come lol
____________

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 20, 2017 12:49 PM

Mediczero said:
You guys do know that this isn't about heroes specifically, but fantasy strategy games in general?
In that case the post is completely irrelevant and meaningless, because it would seem to depend on the game what suits it better.
For example, if you had a game called, say, MERCENARIES, racial theme made not much sense, whereas with a game called EVIL ORCS AGAINST GOOD ELVES you'd probably expect a racial set-up.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted April 20, 2017 05:27 PM

Kipshasz said:
Elvin said:
Best life goal ever?

Yes.


I say try to get in touch with JVC and convince him to get his IP back.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted April 20, 2017 08:33 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 20:58, 20 Apr 2017.

kookastar said:
I want to win the lotto and fund the making of an old school HOMM game.  It's time to bring the factions back to the people


I don't know what a lotto is but I want to win it too so I can fund a massive smear campaign against your new old Heroes game.

Lotto sounds like a shady Star Wars villain.



Han Solo: "Come on Lotto, don't try to cheat me now. We had a deal the warp drive would be in by next week!"

Lotto: "Bring me the Wookie!"

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 20, 2017 08:49 PM

JollyJoker said:
In that case the post is completely irrelevant and meaningless, because it would seem to depend on the game what suits it better.
For example, if you had a game called, say, MERCENARIES, racial theme made not much sense, whereas with a game called EVIL ORCS AGAINST GOOD ELVES you'd probably expect a racial set-up.

Well, you missed out on the crucial point that this is generally speaking, not an universal truth. If there is a setting (not a game specifically mind you) where I think thematic factions would work better, I would prefer thematic factions. Most of the time I simply think a racial faction is more interesting.

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