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| Thread: The Next French Revolution |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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Salamandre
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posted November 25, 2017 04:20 AM |
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@JollyJoker
No need to resort to insults, I am not opposed to "world changing", nor insisting it should remain as it is, this is shallow slogan made up from nothing, to paint the other as short minded while you are the prophet who gets it all. World always changed and sometimes the changes proved to be catastrophic, with civilizations being wiped out, genocides, cultures destroyed and so on. Other times, most of, fortunately, it went for the best.
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And what is that nonsense about destruction of OUR culture? MY culture would look pretty anemic without the Italian, Turkish, Greek, Arab, Indian, Asian, Persian, Mongolian and other restaurants, food shops
This is just pathetic and closes any further debate with you on culture, assuming that when I speak about defending your culture I have in mind burgers and salads. You basically concede you have no identity except your stomach cavity. If you take classical music -not mentioning literature, philosophy, poetry, architecture - Germans are the backbone and roots of the most brilliant and unmatched western culture, an unique world of immortal forms, ideas and emotions. How do you think such values inspired and fed from Christianism over so many centuries, will be considered when a religion as Islam will take over, both demographically and ideologically?
JollyJoker said:
Excuse my French, but you sound like an imbecile. YOUR France? You think you have a right on things staying like they are?
"Quoting" things I didn't say in caps doesn't change the fact that I didn't say them, you wont find any "MY France" above so I don't consider having any property right, nor that I stand against changes, I was evoking my personal experience based on observation. I stand against the crap you write, purely demagogic, as criminals not having to go in prison, all people from the world should be given citizenship in welfare countries if they have some valid grief, then that people criticizing all this are fascists and should be shut up and so on. You are part of the toxic movement which started about 20 years ago, with the insane cult of "diversity above all" and "everyone should be free to do whatever it pleases" which finally lead to the destruction of spiritual and cultural cohesion and homogeneity through western societies. And they bleed as hell today, while things go worse and worse every day, with people hating each other and relying only on violence as valid argument.
And definitely you don't have a valuable standard about what ideal immigration is: when the country you go in becomes your country and you consider defending its values as worth the fight. Instead, you prefer people who hate, lie and steal from you and who consider you as a naive idiot with hippie ideals which they can rip off. Maybe they are right and you don't deserve any better.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 25, 2017 08:18 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:22, 25 Nov 2017.
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Sal said:
This is just pathetic and closes any further debate with you on culture, assuming that when I speak about defending your culture I have in mind burgers and salads. You basically concede you have no identity except your stomach cavity. If you take classical music -not mentioning literature, philosophy, poetry, architecture - Germans are the backbone and roots of the most brilliant and unmatched western culture, an unique world of immortal forms, ideas and emotions. How do you think such values inspired and fed from Christianism over so many centuries, will be considered when a religion as Islam will take over, both demographically and ideologically?
What has high art has to do with all this? In most concerned articles, the statistics shared show future Muslim population less than 25 percent even in most crowded countries and you talk as if they will assimilate Germany out of Beethoven? The immigrants will be mostly working class and their association with creation of high art will be the equivalent of a peasant's from 18th Century. Also, we are not in an age where religion determines high-end intellectual output, either in art or philosophy. The extreme majority of people in such circles are atheists, agnostics, non-religious anyway.
Another thing is, as you most probably know better than me, all those German/Austrian composers were heavily influenced by Italian music of the past, imagine them taking a "national" stand about such influence. And Italian music is influenced by Greco-Roman music, that can be traced back to Mesopotamian origins etc... Do you realize that Goethe himself wrote a Divan? Of course, all of this interaction and evolution has a pace and can not be compared to instant mass immigration but no culture is pure or isolated, neither should they be preserved in such manner.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 25, 2017 09:11 AM |
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He's mistaking "cultural HERITAGE" for "culture". He's also also pretty close to saying about muslims what Hitler and those Nazi basterds said about Jews three quarters of a millennium before.
He just wants his France back. It seems he hasn't quite understood, that we live in a world in which everything is connected. You cannot try and shut out what is deemed unpleasant or annoying; instead you have to put your finger on the actual problem and help solving it. That's how the goddamn capitalism survived the revolutions and social quakes in the first place. GIVE EVERYONE SOMETHING (TO LOSE) (instead of treating them like animals).
Which means, the only way worth taking is doing whatever is necessary to make sure that people have a decent life in other countries.
It's not that different from Germany tackling the reunion. I mean, if we didn't want everyone moving to the Western part where the grass was greener, we HAD to pump money into that part of the country and "develop" it, so that they could stay where they were, and I don't mean it in an arrogant way. There was no alternative.
What we DEARLY need now is that "we" as the population of an ever smaller world take responsibility and clean all the dumps and dirtholes there are. We won't be able to close our borders, as won't the US - there is a very long history that proves it.
But what is most ironic of all is that these ideas are touted by supposed Christians. I don't think Jesus would approve the slam the door in thy neighbour's face attitude.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 25, 2017 11:53 AM |
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Salamandre said:
And now, terrible outburst in France, as Macron replies to illegal morocco woman seeking for asylum "you must return home if you're not in danger". Opened news, everyone is calling Macron an opportunist trying to conquer nationalist's votes. Just lol, world is going dumb.
And while everyone is focused and arguing about that Macron is doing his big reform that will significantly lower pensions. But of course, that doesn't matter. It's just diversion, communication, buzz, so the people miss the real issues french press won't talk about as usual.
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Stevie
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posted November 25, 2017 05:19 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You say Quote:
No idea why you insist on an irrelevant detail as what about her parents,
Really? I think it's pretty easy. If the parents have staying rights in France - why would the daughter not be allowed to stay?
Maybe because her parents have a valid reason to stay while she doesn't? Maybe because blood ties are entirely irrelevant when it comes to matters of law? Maybe because adults in their 40's are treated as individuals and not through the lenses of their parents? What is this, kindergarten? What kind of ridiculous argument is that?
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tSar-Ivor
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posted November 25, 2017 05:33 PM |
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Quote:
What we DEARLY need now is that "we" as the population of an ever smaller world take responsibility and clean all the dumps and dirtholes there are. We won't be able to close our borders, as won't the US - there is a very long history that proves it.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your post (and especially this bit, not the first segment tho about Sal). However, we must be careful that 'taking responsibility' doesn't turn into heavy handed arrogance. Being more advanced does not necessarily translate into legitimate authority in some parts of the world (especially if they are very delipidated). Best way to progress is that we must under no circumstance 'dictate' how the improvements are to work and function. It must not turn into a master/servant relationship like the IMF wants and has done with (most notably post-soviet countries, and several African ones, the case of Ethiopia was the most revealing as to their true intentions). More importantly we must not fall into the trap of believing we know best in all circumstances, it has to be mutual collaboration, with full brotherly respect from all parties (Johan Galtung, a very very famous Academic in the field of Conflict Resolution has some very refined ideas/advanced ways of promoting this 'brotherly' love, which he has done and well, so worth looking into).
A world culture, this is what globalisation has lacked (it's there in theory, but too few live and breathe it), we are now living on an interconnected world arena that in are hearts still regard as alien, yet still live and breathe within it never truly adapting our hearts to this new world. A globalisided world needs to have global culture in the fore, and national behind it, when you have countries calling for cutting immigration they're showing their insecurity, their cultures are too weak and brittle to survive without such wayward protection methods. Kinda like in capitalism opening your markets when your national businesses are still weak is suicide, big foreign companies will completely dominate. So I can see the anti-immigration argument, but they put emphasis in the wrong place, they think the problem is external, but in reality the problem is that we are too culturally weak, they're trying to protect this weakened state (control immigration), I say let's work on it, revamp it from ground-up.
Regardless of how it's done, so long as you have a solid goal and a good workable 'ethos' that I think you nailed (regarding others as your brothers, if they fall you dont stamp on them and rob them, you give them a helping hand, if they're dumb, you don't take advantage of that to make a slave out of him, you educate him appropriately.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 25, 2017 08:06 PM |
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@ Stevie
It's not a stupid argument, it's basically what article 16 of human rights and article 8 of European Convention of Human Rights says. Family is protected.
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Stevie
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posted November 25, 2017 10:16 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:23, 25 Nov 2017.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 25, 2017 10:28 PM |
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You are just talking out of your arse. If you have no idea about something, just shut up.
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Stevie
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posted November 25, 2017 10:35 PM |
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I'm the one talking from my ass? You're basically saying that it's okay to stay in another country if your mom and dad are there, because that's the type of protection you can find in the Human Rights. Come on, that sounds ludicrous on so many levels.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted November 25, 2017 11:22 PM |
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Actually yes, such law exists (France adopted it in 1970, and allows members of your family to join you in another country, but requires several conditions, as already being in the country since xx months/years, being able to prove your income will be sufficient to support the upcoming family, and in the case of children, they have to be less than 18 years old. The french president didn't talk out of his ass, unlike some member here.
Human rights should not be taken as literal reference when setting or discussing immigration policies, as if you read them only partially, you will come to the conclusions that all humans have equal rights - that's liberal's main argument, people can go wherever they want. But if you look entirely, the terms of "nation" "borders" and "constitutional laws" are evoked several times, so it suggests that every country can have its own set of accommodation on the matter, probably conditioned by geographic, economic and social factors.
It would also be interesting to recall that 60% of french are against that law, 40 years after its birth. Didn't work so well.
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Corribus
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posted November 26, 2017 12:05 AM |
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Break time.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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