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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: What to do with Dark Elves and Faceless
Thread: What to do with Dark Elves and Faceless This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Zum-Graat
Zum-Graat

Tavern Dweller
posted May 15, 2017 03:26 PM

verriker said:

but to extend my analogy further it is like building a Rampart or Preserve around Bugbears to basically kick out the Elves, totally bizarre and unnecessary to deserve all criticism, but hey chill down everyone there is only one or two Bugbear units it is not a big deal and the faction still has its identity you are overreacting cheers lol


Well, if you insert bugbears in Rampart they will, as you say, kick out elves which is unacceptable.
But who did Dark Elves kick out? Minotaurs are still here, they didn't go anywhere. Manticores were in MMH 6. Medusas, beholders, troglodytes - almost all classic creatures are still here. Dark Elves didn't take anything out of Dungeon, they only added something new with taking away almost nothing old.  

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted May 15, 2017 03:44 PM

Zum-Graat said:

Well, if you insert bugbears in Rampart they will, as you say, kick out elves which is unacceptable.
But who did Dark Elves kick out? Minotaurs are still here, they didn't go anywhere. Manticores were in MMH 6. Medusas, beholders, troglodytes - almost all classic creatures are still here. Dark Elves didn't take anything out of Dungeon, they only added something new with taking away almost nothing old.  



They waste the space that could be used for better creatures.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 15, 2017 03:45 PM

Zum-Graat said:
Well, if you insert bugbears in Rampart they will, as you say, kick out elves which is unacceptable.
But who did Dark Elves kick out? Minotaurs are still here, they didn't go anywhere. Manticores were in MMH 6. Medusas, beholders, troglodytes - almost all classic creatures are still here. Dark Elves didn't take anything out of Dungeon, they only added something new with taking away almost nothing old.  



rather I specifically said "basically kick out the Elves", if one would have Bugbears lead the faction then even if there is a Token Elf or Two the elves are basically kicked out because it will not be the Elf faction any more, no longer a hero class based on Elves with a significant number of Elf heroes, no longer lore, philosophy, culture and architecture informed by the Elves, no longer a playstyle and skill set informed by Elves, no longer is the faction reflecting the spirit of the Elves because it is the Bugbears who are completely different lol

for you the mere presence of a Minotaur in some shape or form (if you note in Heroes 5 they are actually sex slaves chained up and doing the Dark Elves' bidding, what an insult lol) is enough to say "everything is more or less the same, all is well, do not complain",
but actually the highly Purple, BDSM sexualized, elegant, Final Fantasy/Warhammer style dungeon of Heroes 5-7 is nothing to do with the harsh Gothic style of the Minotaurs, we have no or very few Minotaur heroes and only Dark Elf heroes and leaders all about, Erwin did not even have the wisdom to accept that the Minotaurs once ruled the Dungeon because instead he inserted the Faceless Ones/Ithilids as its historical rulers and made the Minotaurs almost irrelevant, thus for sure I think it is dubious to say they merely add and take nothing away as if they are a spice in a tasty dish, they are more like an avalanche of snow come to replace a warm fire that was burning nicely lol

Make Nighon Great Again, Aminotaur First lol
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Zum-Graat
Zum-Graat

Tavern Dweller
posted May 15, 2017 04:05 PM

I don't know, man, for me minotaurs were never a defining race of Dungeon, or at least not them alone.
In HoMM 1-2 there were NO minotaurs among Warlock heroes at all.
In HoMM 3 there were as many minotaurs as troglodytes and humans among heroes of Dungeon.
But I agree that the position of slaves for minotaurs is not the change I like. They should be allies of Dark Elves rather than servants. And we, indeed, need more minotaurs among heroes.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 15, 2017 04:24 PM

for sure one could pull that notion but it will be meaningless as bear in mind there were hardly any Elf heroes of Sorceress in Heroes 1-2 either,
the Heroes of Heroes 1-2 were almost all characters ripped from the Might and Magic 1-5 at the last minute which had no Minotaurs in it, I am sure if there were Minotaur portraits available to use they would have used them but they had to resort to what they had, actually when you explore the Heroes 1-2 world more in Might and Magic 6 you will find that there are way more Minotaurs in the Warlock lands than there are Elves in the Sorceress lands lol

also for Heroes 3 it also applies as bear in mind the Rampart was an alliance of the Dwarves Elves and Humans, ultimately these are trivial details which do not matter in the bigger picture, when you have made a decision that Heroes 5 will have more racist factions and it comes time to choose a race which is emblematic of the factions, the completely obvious no brainers which make perfect sense are Elves for the Preserve, Minotaurs for the Dungeon etc lol

not random Bugbears or Dark Elves and Ithilids or whatelse pulled out of the bum lol
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Zum-Graat
Zum-Graat

Tavern Dweller
posted May 15, 2017 04:55 PM

You are probably right.
But "racial" towns of HoMM 5-7 usually have at least 2-3 units of titular race. If minotaurs were titular race, there would be Minotaur-Fighter, Minotaur-Archer, Minotaur-Sorcerer or something like that And people would complain either way.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 15, 2017 05:12 PM

to be honest I personally think that would not be an issue to have a traditional Minotaur and a Minotaur Warlock unit or something, I don't think I have seen anyone who minds having an Elf Druid and an Elf Archer in the Elf town, although it can get waaay overboard in Erwin's world with four Dark Elves in the Dark Elf town and six Dwarves in the Dwarf town and so on lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 15, 2017 05:30 PM

Quote:
racial towns



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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 15, 2017 05:48 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 17:57, 15 May 2017.

Zum-Graat said:
But I agree that the position of slaves for minotaurs is not the change I like. They should be allies of Dark Elves rather than servants. And we, indeed, need more minotaurs among heroes.

Well, lore-wise they were originally a gift from wizards, and as time went by, most were granted freedom.



In H6, their description claimed that they were freed in general, while in H5 it claimed they were used as slaves still. While I believe H5 is not very reliable as canon, I assume this is H7's way of reconciling these two.

Though truth be told, even though they are now often seen as allies rather than slaves, in practice they still end up looking like servants anyhow.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted May 15, 2017 05:55 PM

Minotaurs and darkelves should be equals.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted May 15, 2017 06:02 PM

Dark elves should be burned.

[/not racist]
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 15, 2017 06:06 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 18:11, 15 May 2017.

Mediczero said:
Minotaurs and darkelves should be equals.

I mean, they mostly are. It's just that with "loyalty" being their gimmick for some reason and with their freedom being "granted out of appreciation", it's hard to shake the feeling that they're still basically servants, even when not called slaves anymore.

I feel that instead of shifting from "masters" to "equals", dark elves shifted from "masters" to "benevolent masters"

I'd have much preferred something like... a bloody revolt, where minotaurs "earned" their freedom by fighting to seize it, and eventually settled for an uneasy alliance with dark elves. That's where we could start talking about loyalty to a common cause, in a way that doesn't give me "slaves that did well" vibes

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Hired Hero
Wearer of Fedoras
posted May 15, 2017 09:18 PM

Sligneris said:

I'd have much preferred something like... a bloody revolt, where minotaurs "earned" their freedom by fighting to seize it, and eventually settled for an uneasy alliance with dark elves.



I like this idea. My ideal version of it would be something along the lines if the Minotaurs took over Dungeon and thus became the leaders of the Manticores, Black Dragons, etc. and kicked out the Dark Elves who ran away with the Faceless and their idiotic puppet ballerina things who founded their own faction that His Spideryness can be as 'innovative' as he wants with while Dungeon is left unscathed.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 15, 2017 10:07 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 22:15, 15 May 2017.

Well... Not that there's any problem with having ideas of your own, but that does not exactly sound realistic. I mean, my version of this idea involves them staying in the same faction as equals, without any such obvious changes. It's a lore idea to give minotaurs more significance more than anything else.

Still, nothing blatantly contradicts the idea that this is how they stopped being slaves ("granting freedom out of appreciation for strength and reliability" is vague enough to work around it), so it's not entirely out of question.

Recent portrayals (or to be more specific, Ashan portrayals) of Dungeon seemed to be that of people with nowhere to go seeking refugee in darkness. While dark elves are a part of it, there seemed to be evidently too much focus on them. I mean, it's not elves alone that faceless, or black dragon, or Malassa can bargain with, right? Which is why I liked to see Dungeon as something akin to a mixed minotaur/dark elf/medusa society in H7.

Still, as "mixed" I might picture it as, the story still seems very centered on the elves... without any actual notable minotaur or medusa character. Well, Darkstorm was notable, except his role in the story was not. So H7 still falls short on that front.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted May 15, 2017 10:22 PM

I have a better idea, ditch Ashan
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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted May 15, 2017 10:26 PM

LizardWarrior said:
I have a better idea, ditch Ashan

Most can probably agree on that, the real issue is for what?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 15, 2017 10:43 PM

To give a proper poetic freedom when creating things out of its lore.
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Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Hired Hero
Wearer of Fedoras
posted May 15, 2017 10:45 PM
Edited by Rimgrabber at 22:48, 15 May 2017.

Mediczero said:

Most can probably agree on that, the real issue is for what?


Tbh almost anything else would be better at this point. We could go back to the old world, we could have a new world, we could even go back to H5 Ashan and just make the weird bits non-canon, because as bland as Ashan was in H5, at least it wasn't "everything glows purple and green because lore", or "Necropolis's main race is spider because lore". Ashan was vague enough in H5 imo that it could have been interesting if they had developed it in a way that every faction wasn't cult and every character wasn't a mary-sue. Heck, maybe it could have even been just another planet in the old universe and the Dragon Gods were just some bored aliens pulling pranks that everyone took too seriously. It would also be cool for a game taking place in a different universe to start with a prologue where you play as Sandro and end Ashan. I'm sure lots of people would find that extremely satisfying.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 15, 2017 11:05 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 23:05, 15 May 2017.

LizardWarrior said:
I have a better idea, ditch Ashan
Sligneris said:
Not that there's any problem with having ideas of your own, but that does not exactly sound realistic.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 15, 2017 11:12 PM

Sligernis said:
Not that there's any problem with having ideas of your own, but that does not exactly sound realistic.


actually they had already ditched it for Antagarich in the latest sweatshop spinoffs lol
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