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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: What to do with Dark Elves and Faceless
Thread: What to do with Dark Elves and Faceless This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 16, 2017 03:42 PM

I really want to evade that horrid warcraft world. So im on the keep minotaur unique and not a race team. I hate warcraft.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 16, 2017 03:45 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 15:46, 16 May 2017.

verriker said:
Sligneris said:
Well, so... Shouldn't you guys be happy about that or something?
why lol
I don't know, looking at how much you wanted the old universe instead of Ashan? That's sorta what I remember you guys asking for.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 16, 2017 03:52 PM

Sligneris said:
I don't know, looking at how much you wanted the old universe instead of Ashan? That's sorta what I remember you guys asking for.


I mean why would one be happy merely because of a fake news Chinese takeaway version of Antagarich, myself and others generally want to play high quality Heroes games,

if you think your opponents are only invested in having a game to use Antagarich or a version of it no matter if it is a bad or cheap game then you must go back to the drawing board on what your priorities are,
Ashan with low quality lore and writing is just one of many symptoms of the games being low quality it is not some kind of silver bullet thing to get rid of to make all critics happy, just make a good game seriously cheers lol
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted May 16, 2017 04:05 PM
Edited by LizardWarrior at 16:05, 16 May 2017.

You don't need 100 units of a faction to be the ruling race. Just one is enough (maybe except for Castle/Haven). Just put a lvl 5 minotaur and have more minotaur heroes, then the rest can be other creatures, like in Heroes 3. But anyway, Heroes III did it right IMO, you got more races of heroes (troglodytes, minotaurs, humans). H5-H6-H7 heroes are too uniform, there needs to be more variety. Yeah, in Heroes 7 maybe you got 1 or 2 creature heroes, but think about Heroes 3, you had 5 troglodyte heroes, 5 minotaur heroes and 6 humans.
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted May 16, 2017 05:35 PM

Rimgrabber said:
if you'd asked me.


i didn't

Avonu said:
You just need a little imagination - one thing which Ashan lacks.



Then people here would snow anyway because "omg they're following the normal archetypes, Heroes is better when it's a fantasy kitchen sink" etc etc etc like they did with Necropolis.

Spare me from the counter-arguments btw, they were weak in 2015 and they still are today. I can't be arsed to reread them

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted May 16, 2017 05:46 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 17:49, 16 May 2017.

Well, I didn't want to say this again and derail another thread with this repetitive debate, but here it goes anyway.
verriker said:
if you think your opponents are only invested in having a game to use Antagarich or a version of it no matter if it is a bad or cheap game then you must go back to the drawing board on what your priorities are,
Ashan with low quality lore and writing is just one of many symptoms of the games being low quality it is not some kind of silver bullet thing to get rid of to make all critics happy, just make a good game seriously cheers lol

Basically none of what you said is useful. There's even no point in trying to make all critics happy, given the default response being always "lol it sucks".

Would you say it's possible to have a game set in Ashan that's not "low quality"? I would, but you'd never agree. Anything set in Ashan will be met with the same, tired response. Then even if Ubi bent to the pressure and reintroduced the old universe for the main series, or introduced a new setting... Truthfully, I think it'd be even worse. There's a huge chance you guys would reject it anyway, and it'd also end up alienating those introduced to the series with Ashan. For one, I'm sure it'd be hard for me to feel engaged in a story set in the old universe.

I'm anything but satisfied with the current state of things and I have numerous ideas of my own on how things could be improved. But with how things are, you guys are making it difficult for me to get mad at Ubi for "not listening to the fans"... Even when in some cases, I should.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 16, 2017 06:03 PM

Sligernis I personally think it is not really worth to respond to you because I think you tend to have a certain narrative which you will jump to put in my mouth and others' mouths no matter what we may say to you,
you are basically writing for me a fictional script of very exaggerated, one-dimensional opinions and talking points which you are really eager to come back and complain at me for saying no matter whether I actually say them or think them or not, and in this case it is a very obvious not, so this is ultimately pointless lol
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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 16, 2017 07:32 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 21:45, 16 May 2017.


I hate Warcraft, Warhammer, Kaiju-world-and-lore and Lovecraft.

Other fantasy worlds can be dull, but I don't hate them, and there are a lot of other fantasy worlds. Of course my own imagination is the best in my own book. Just like your little mermaid and unicorn-world is your.

You are just lucky that you are so easily satisfied with things that I think are overused, boring and done to death, like Dark Elves and Minotaurs-as-a-race.

MOD-NOTE: Edited out a deleted post

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted May 16, 2017 08:00 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 21:47, 16 May 2017.

Contrary, I would say you are a picky little... and from your statement I can prove why.

Firstly, you state which fantasy universes you hate, and to be quite honest you just lack D&D and LotR, and you have the collectors edition of "modern" widely popular fantasy settings. The thing of note is that all of these are popular and well known, and unless you care to prove me wrong I think that's why you dislike them so much. Though there is nothing wrong with hating these of course, as long as you are not rubbing it in other peoples faces.

Next, you say that you find most fantasy worlds dull. Nothing offensive really, but worth noting.

Lastly, and this is the real sinner, you state that you find your own personal fantasy setting to be the best. Nothing wrong with a little pride in your own work of course, but you really seem into it. Too much perhaps.

So with this I conclude that my initial statement was wrong. You're not a picky little... you're rather a prideful hipster when it comes to fantasy. But I might over analyse it.

Also, might I add that I do not think my own work is the best. I admire the work of others, and strive to reach their level of depth. Yes, I could tailor a world just to my liking and call it the very best, but I'll rather enjoy what others have made and see what there is to learn.

please don't dehumanize other members.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 16, 2017 08:12 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 21:48, 16 May 2017.

Mediczero said:
Contrary, I would say you are a picky little... and from your statement I can prove why.

Firstly, you state which fantasy universes you hate, and to be quite honest you just lack D&D and LotR, and you have the collectors edition of "modern" widely popular fantasy settings. The thing of note is that all of these are popular and well known, and unless you care to prove me wrong I think that's why you dislike them so much. Though there is nothing wrong with hating these of course, as long as you are not rubbing it in other peoples faces.

Next, you say that you find most fantasy worlds dull. Nothing offensive really, but worth noting.

Lastly, and this is the real sinner, you state that you find your own personal fantasy setting to be the best. Nothing wrong with a little pride in your own work of course, but you really seem into it. Too much perhaps.

So with this I conclude that my initial statement was wrong. You're not a picky little... you're rather a prideful hipster when it comes to fantasy. But I might over analyse it.

Also, might I add that I do not think my own work is the best. I admire the work of others, and strive to reach their level of depth. Yes, I could tailor a world just to my liking and call it the very best, but I'll rather enjoy what others have made and see what there is to learn.


First of all I never mentioned any of those world ever before, maybe only warcraft in some ideas threat, but people are still opening their mouths right now, learning that I hate Lovecraft and Kaiju with passion. And yes, them being so popular does have something to do with it. But I also don't like them, spare for some monsters from Lovecraft.

Also of course I like my own fantasy world the best, that is why I created it in the first place.

Of other peoples creations i'm more of a Pathfinder/D&D/Lost Souls and LOTR guy, though LOTR isn't really my thing either. I love diverse stuff. And in my own mind I create all kinds of stuff ,that isn't hipster that is just my personal taste.

I also love to see other peoples ideas and tastes, but many of them I find dull and done-to-death, but sometimes someone goes beyond the crowd of dragon-lovers, mermaid fun girls and bigger-is-better an creates an original cool concept and fantasy world. There are enough of those around, but they are mostly not hyped by the crowd.

Anyway, back on topic. This is about Dark Elves and Minotaurs.

The biggest reasons I hate minotaurs as a race is because it came from Warcraft mostly, and that they became pussies and good-guys, while Minotaurs should be evil. And female Minotaurs = not cool.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted May 16, 2017 08:58 PM

Rakshasa92 said:
Anyway, back on topic. This is about Dark Elves and Minotaurs.

The biggest reasons I hate minotaurs as a race is because it came from Warcraft mostly, and that they became pussies and good-guys, while Minotaurs should be evil. And female Minotaurs = not cool.

I'll admit it, we're basicly a pair of rocks screaming at eachother. No point in arguing as we'll probably never come to an agreement.7

But boy, you just said two things I really, really didn't agree with.
Firstly, Minotaurs should be evil.
Well I could go on for ages about how no one race in a any kind of setting, except for a race that is a literal force of pure evil, should be considered evil. It's two-dimensional and boring. It's a people, made of individuals. Those individuals may be what we consider good and evil, but doubly it would be all of them. But of course, you can construct a race to be "evil" in the eyes of other races by culture, but it wouldn't be absolute.
The small rant about why an "evil" race, here is why I think the Tauren, and the fact they are what you would consider a good race, makes much more sense.
Minotaurs as a race is noted to basicly be half human, half bull. And bulls are basicly just male cows, and cows are herbivores and generally speaking rather docile creatures. Of course bulls have an reputation for being rather aggressive, but that is primarily only when provoked. You don't hear stories about bulls going on murderous rampages, now do you?
So I would argue it makes a whole lot more sense to have the minotaurs being a peaceful race that only takes up arms to defend themselves, rather than a race of murderous brutes dedicated to evil. You could still make lore to let the counterargument make more sense, but I believe the Warcraft Tauren is some of the best representations of minotaurs in fantasy.

Next up. No female Minotaurs. WTF?
There is literally only ONE scenario where this makes sense, and that is if the minotaurs are labgrown experiements breed for war. Ties very well into the evil part, but it's really cheap and undeserving of the minotaurs (which is an awesome race)

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 16, 2017 09:05 PM

I ... really don't know what to reply to this poll. I didn't mind the concept of the Dark Elves in H5, I actually thought H5 Dungeon was a pretty good faction minus the S&M elements. But since then, the whole idea has been so soaked up in H6 and H7 lore problems that it's hard not to associate them with all the bad elements of Ashan heroes.

Similarly, I really liked the original Myth Of Creation and was pretty thrilled to see Faceless as a dark equivalent to the Angels. But I don't think the concept was ever really materialized succesfully, and by now Faceless is most likely going to feel like just another tired H6 rehash.

So, at this point, I'm mostly leaning towards just abandoning both.

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted May 16, 2017 09:43 PM

Oh dear lord, please calm down. I'm gonna have to clean this thread so just... jeez. No personal insults or baiting please Mediczero.

And Rakshasa please don't be so antagonistic about things you dislike. We get it. You hate many things. There is no need to as confrontational about it as you often are.

I do not want to deal with this right now but I have too.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 16, 2017 10:07 PM
Edited by Rakshasa92 at 22:09, 16 May 2017.

Mediczero said:
Rakshasa92 said:
Anyway, back on topic. This is about Dark Elves and Minotaurs.

The biggest reasons I hate minotaurs as a race is because it came from Warcraft mostly, and that they became pussies and good-guys, while Minotaurs should be evil. And female Minotaurs = not cool.

I'll admit it, we're basicly a pair of rocks screaming at eachother. No point in arguing as we'll probably never come to an agreement.7

But boy, you just said two things I really, really didn't agree with.
Firstly, Minotaurs should be evil.
Well I could go on for ages about how no one race in a any kind of setting, except for a race that is a literal force of pure evil, should be considered evil. It's two-dimensional and boring. It's a people, made of individuals. Those individuals may be what we consider good and evil, but doubly it would be all of them. But of course, you can construct a race to be "evil" in the eyes of other races by culture, but it wouldn't be absolute.
The small rant about why an "evil" race, here is why I think the Tauren, and the fact they are what you would consider a good race, makes much more sense.
Minotaurs as a race is noted to basicly be half human, half bull. And bulls are basicly just male cows, and cows are herbivores and generally speaking rather docile creatures. Of course bulls have an reputation for being rather aggressive, but that is primarily only when provoked. You don't hear stories about bulls going on murderous rampages, now do you?
So I would argue it makes a whole lot more sense to have the minotaurs being a peaceful race that only takes up arms to defend themselves, rather than a race of murderous brutes dedicated to evil. You could still make lore to let the counterargument make more sense, but I believe the Warcraft Tauren is some of the best representations of minotaurs in fantasy.

Next up. No female Minotaurs. WTF?
There is literally only ONE scenario where this makes sense, and that is if the minotaurs are labgrown experiements breed for war. Ties very well into the evil part, but it's really cheap and undeserving of the minotaurs (which is an awesome race)


Try the real myth, there it wouldn't make sense to have female Minotaurs and an entire race of minotaurs that make a civalization. (I don't mind there being more minotaurs, I just don't like them to create cities and being very intelligent)

I want minotaurs to keep to their roots, in the greek myth it is a carnivore, evil creature, disfigured and powerful, unable to talk but with a great sense of direction.

Warcraft destroyed minotaurs. Many races can be like Taurens wussies, but not Minotaurs please. I puke at the idea. Especially because that would be like stealing the tauren from WOW, and not taking the minotaurs from Homm3.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 16, 2017 11:04 PM
Edited by MattII at 23:24, 16 May 2017.

Avonu said:
MattII said:
that isn't convincing IMO, the Minotaurs are too similar to each other.

Yes, they are. But nevertheless you can see, that it's possible to create whole race from Minotaurs. You just need a little imagination - one thing which Ashan lacks.
Well in your example we have a minotaur with a flail, a minotaur with a throwing axe, a minotaur mage and a minotaur with a battle-axe. When we all dislike overuse of racial factions (and I think that's the majority opinion), that kind of lineup doesn't look good.

Rakshasa92 said:
I really want to evade that horrid warcraft world. So im on the keep minotaur unique and not a race team. I hate warcraft.
Agreed, although World of Warcraft does have the Taurens as a playable race.

LizardWarrior said:
You don't need 100 units of a faction to be the ruling race. Just one is enough (maybe except for Castle/Haven). Just put a lvl 5 minotaur and have more minotaur heroes, then the rest can be other creatures, like in Heroes 3. But anyway, Heroes III did it right IMO, you got more races of heroes (troglodytes, minotaurs, humans). H5-H6-H7 heroes are too uniform, there needs to be more variety. Yeah, in Heroes 7 maybe you got 1 or 2 creature heroes, but think about Heroes 3, you had 5 troglodyte heroes, 5 minotaur heroes and 6 humans.
Yep, that's the right way to go about it. There were, IMO, a couple of flies in the jam, namely the Harpy and the Medusa, theoretically intelligent races that didn't get even one hero.

Mediczero said:
But boy, you just said two things I really, really didn't agree with.
Firstly, Minotaurs should be evil.
Well I could go on for ages about how no one race in a any kind of setting, except for a race that is a literal force of pure evil, should be considered evil. It's two-dimensional and boring. It's a people, made of individuals. Those individuals may be what we consider good and evil, but doubly it would be all of them. But of course, you can construct a race to be "evil" in the eyes of other races by culture, but it wouldn't be absolute.
The small rant about why an "evil" race, here is why I think the Tauren, and the fact they are what you would consider a good race, makes much more sense.
Minotaurs as a race is noted to basicly be half human, half bull. And bulls are basicly just male cows, and cows are herbivores and generally speaking rather docile creatures. Of course bulls have an reputation for being rather aggressive, but that is primarily only when provoked. You don't hear stories about bulls going on murderous rampages, now do you?
So I would argue it makes a whole lot more sense to have the minotaurs being a peaceful race that only takes up arms to defend themselves, rather than a race of murderous brutes dedicated to evil. You could still make lore to let the counterargument make more sense, but I believe the Warcraft Tauren is some of the best representations of minotaurs in fantasy.
Now this, this is how you build a world.

Quote:
Next up. No female Minotaurs. WTF?
There is literally only ONE scenario where this makes sense, and that is if the minotaurs are labgrown experiements breed for war. Ties very well into the evil part, but it's really cheap and undeserving of the minotaurs (which is an awesome race)
Agreed, for once in this argument.

Rakshasa92 said:
Try the real myth, there it wouldn't make sense to have female Minotaurs and an entire race of minotaurs that make a civalization. (I don't mind there being more minotaurs, I just don't like them to create cities and being very intelligent)

I want minotaurs to keep to their roots, in the greek myth it is a carnivore, evil creature, disfigured and powerful, unable to talk but with a great sense of direction.

Warcraft destroyed minotaurs. Many races can be like Taurens wussies, but not Minotaurs please. I puke at the idea. Especially because that would be like stealing the tauren from WOW, and not taking the minotaurs from Homm3.
the one problem with this approach is that once you get more than one minotaur at a time, you have to figure out how they'll react to each other, and further, how they'll react when they'll react to non-minotaurs. If you try to stay true to the myth, you run into the fact that they really would work better outside a faction since they wouldn't really be team players.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 16, 2017 11:26 PM

There are many scenarios for no female minotaurs. One can be incubated from its host (parentage) when one dies, coming out of its carcass (a sombre phoenix cycle, if you will); they can breed, if they are hermaphrodites; they could be a possessed or rabid-like being, infecting and mutating the next, like a curse; taking the curse as example, they could be even a necromanturgy effect, if given enough care. It all depends on how far or how fitting these scenarios can be upon one's design decision.

Nature is not limited to male-female setting in reality. In fantasy, I think the odds of exception are ever more pronounced, just like the freedom to design them.
____________

Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted May 17, 2017 12:19 AM
Edited by MattII at 00:29, 17 May 2017.

Most of those, however, would not, to me, fit particularly well with minotaurs. Now one reason to not see many females is cultural 'ethics', ie, keeping females as far away from danger as possible. Come to think of it, that we're even discussing how to get male minotaurs without females shows we're going about it in the wrong way, because if there are no females, there are not males either, not in the traditional sense at least.

Also, I'll note that the only species IRL which don't have a bias between sexes are those which are either simultaneous hermaphrodites, or reproduce by parthenogenesis.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2017 01:24 AM
Edited by Rakshasa92 at 01:38, 17 May 2017.

The problem I have with female minotaurs is that cow-people are just comical and funny, they remind me of Warcraft/World of Warcraft, and that is bad.

Minotaurs should breed with any other humanoid female by rape probably. Or just be created by insane wizards if rape is too much for a game. (I'm fine with rape btw, in a game world were violence and killing is normal, not in the real world OF COURSE, like DUH)

There are more options for cool minotaurs sub-classes as well, Mythology is being very free-giving with minotaurs. Really everything is better than Warcraft Minotaurs! Maybe you could have some of these minotaurs species as different dungeon units.



The Philippine Minotaur is called Sarangay, they have stuff to do with crystals and gems, so maybe this would be a good look for them. If the minotaur is a race they could be a type of minotaur that has elemental abilities.



Erchitu is a strange ox-man from Sardinian Mythology, they have white fur and are covered with little imp creatures that torture them into submission. They are REALLY big, Giant big and would make great high level minotaur sub-species. Much like Goristro from D&D.



Demonic Minotaurs are called Arzshenk and they are from Persian Myths. They are very high level probably and they have magical powers.

I'd rather see those minotaur-subtypes than Minotaur with Axe, Minotaur with Bow, Minotaur woman with Spellbook.



See what i'm talking about? Funny. Comical. Pathetic.


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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted May 17, 2017 01:49 AM

Please, no more dark elves.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
"Stevie's spamfest gave Corribus PTSD." - Kipshasz

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2017 01:57 AM
Edited by Rakshasa92 at 02:02, 17 May 2017.

I wouldn't mind the following Dark Elves-like creatures in the future though:

Svartalfar (Norse) = Common Dark Elf, nasty behavior, cruel and good assassins. Not pretty.
Svartalfar, Springheel (English) = Svartalfar Spy with extreme jumping abilities, perfect assassins and blue-fire breath.
Svartalfar, Fear Dorcha (Irish) = Undead Shadow of a Svartalfar Dark Elf, with shadow powers, turn into a shadow.
Svartalfar, Dalaketnon (Philippine) = Powerful warlock Svartalfar/Dark Elves that can create duplicates of themselves and which have telekinesis.



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