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Heroes Community > Summoners Academy > Thread: Improving the PvP Experience
Thread: Improving the PvP Experience This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted June 10, 2017 08:24 PM
Edited by Galaad at 13:42, 02 Aug 2017.

Improving the PvP Experience



As many of you CQ players are aware of, the dungeon challenges are maybe the most important part of the game experience and the key to its longevity. The challenges are the source of many scarce treasures of which most are very important in the improvement of players' teams and creatures, it's a challenging way to obtain many items such as summon idols, diamonds, gems, totems, and most importantly, a rare set of powerful epic and legendary creatures.

Since last patches, the dungeon challenges have already known major changes, like the creation of the three Bronze, Silver and Gold tiers, each of which granting rewards proportionally to the difficulty of the tier.

Many players have noticed, though, that some sides of the dungeon challenges present issues and made some pertinent comments about that.

This thread is about discussing the PvP aspect of the game, analysing its mechanics, pointing out its flaws if any, what is to be kept, and more importantly contributing some brainstorming with ideas and suggestions that would help with the enhancement of this section of the game, to put it simply: improving the PvP experience.

We invite everyone to take part by sharing his/her thoughts on the topic, as well as the developing team to regularly check the thread for ideas deemed interesting and relevant for future changes and developments of the PvP system and game play.

Please note that this thread is specifically for the PvP section of the game, for other game features suggestions please refer to the thread: Creature Quest - General Ideas and Suggestions.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur.
Use this code in Creature Quest! t2QEc#j7h

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markmasters
markmasters


Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
posted June 12, 2017 10:27 AM

SO right now defences seemed to have a new major buff since last patch, greatly increasing them. People are still experimentating and win rates highly fluctuate, hard to give feedback on it on such s short notice.

I said this before in the other thread but I could imagine some cool pvp like this:

Another thought I had was to have a 'guild war' each month or week. Here you build up Huge dungeons (10 waves with more space for monsters per wave then usual?) with your entire guild, basicly using the strongest monsters everyone has within that guild. Challenging guilds can send a person in, see how far they will go, destroying waves will be seen as 'progress' and destroyed waves won't return for the challenging guild. but If a guild member is defeated with his attack, he can't participate anymore and a new guild member can try to continue to defeat the dungeon untill the dungeon is cleared (goodies for everyone) or the guild failed the assault and can try to challenge another guild.

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scurvynaive
scurvynaive


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 07:21 PM

Well defense seems to be pretty good now but is everyone as sick of seeing 3 level dungeons as I am?  

They really need to improve 5 level dungeons I think.  3 epics in wave 4 is a step in the right direction but not enough.  Until they put an epic in wave 1 I feel like we are forever doomed to play 3 wave dungeons.


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Dulkan
Dulkan


Known Hero
posted June 22, 2017 11:51 AM

Mixing up the 3-wave layout would be a good first step. The big problem with the 3-wave is, that it is exactly the same each week, so you can aim to get the perfect creatures and never have to switch it up. Making the templar, a.k.a. the god defender, for a 3-wave available so readily worsened that a lot.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 22, 2017 01:45 PM

I feel like there should be a Platinum Tier of the sort with the better rewards for the better players, mixing bunch of lvls 100-150 among 300+ doesn't sound right to me.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted June 22, 2017 03:27 PM

What could be improved is the attack list. The five minute wait should fall to one, and the odd to have players of the same level should be taken into count rather than the same prestige, as a 300 level player can have at a moment or another the same prestige as a level 100 and the like.

Sometimes my three choices are all five waves dungeons with two level 105 bosses fully everything, generally the overpowered phenix or green giant. Indeed at the molent we have around the same prestige, but that shouldn't be the only element to take in count.

The odds of getting always the same players to attack is bad too. In a group of 1000 player you should not likely at all get the same player to attack twice, especially if you can't do anything to him/her.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur.
Use this code in Creature Quest! t2QEc#j7h

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 26, 2017 04:05 PM

Reserved.

Will copy-paste the PvP-related discussion that took part in the other thread here in a bit.
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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Famous Hero
posted July 26, 2017 07:54 PM

The best thing would be stopping the competition on SUNDAY, and beginning on MONDAY with a new one.

TUESDAY is horrible.


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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 27, 2017 10:31 AM

Even with all the problems it has, I do enjoy PvP, but some issues are here for too long and I really hope the devs can make it better.
Finally found some time to gather my thoughts, some of the suggestions below have already been requested but never hurt to insist.
Don't hesitate to comment, say if you agree or not, and post your own ideas.


Customizable layouts

That would be a great way for everybody to be able to defend with the creatures he got. What I mean by this is there would be a fixed formula. Let me try to explain.
Right now, we have a set template for 3 waves and a few other 5 waves templates rotating every week.
What I would like is a template that I could configure myself, making the best one out of the creatures I got. For instance, if some wave of a template offers one Epic slot, I would like to be able to chose if I want it ground or flyer. I wouldn't know for sure the better values, for instance I could have X amount of smalls in a wave and Y amount of mediums, but the amount of either one of them would influence on the amount of the other. Say there is a row offering two mediums, I could turn that into four smalls.
I genuinely believe this would allow for more variety in setups as well as opening more choices to defender's creativity.

Waves need to become more challenging as we progress the dungeon

With specials up, defenders are like child's play. The hardest part of a dungeon will always be first wave as you have no mana. If you make it through first wave without losses, victory is pretty much guaranteed, as you have your specials up and all you need to do is shoot them. There could be a few ways doing that.

- Ending a wave drains some of your mana for the next one.
- Drastically increase defenders resistance to specials.
- Give Bosses a 100% stun immunity for first strike.
- Have creatures stats grow exponentially and significantly from a wave to the next one.
- Change the RNG dots value in a way that everyone will act faster (4 dots would go like 5 dots, 3 dots like 4 etc). Truth is judging from the meta full 4 dots defenses can still be beaten without trouble.
- Allow glass-cannon Bosses to have support creatures.

There is probably other ways but that's all I can think of for now.

Prestige loss cap

I think this one has been asked for for ages, there is nothing more frustrating for a player aiming to the top spots to get hit for -300 prestige in last minutes by some lowbie who's not even aiming at any reward particulary and just hit your for the fun. Attacker would still get normal prestige for defeating someone much higher but defender wouldn't lose more than 200.

Introduce a grace period for multiple hits

Multiple hits is one workaround for how broken the defenses are, as it allows player to negate the retal. Grace period shouldn't be too long either otherwise the one who will revenge only has to wait for target to gain more prestige. However, getting hit 4-5 times while sleeping by same person has been frustrating to anyone to whom it happened. I suggest grace period to be 5 hours, same as charging Cps back seems fair.

Stunlock is broken yet mandatory

I am not saying anything about stunlock, as currently stunlock is the only way to stop attackers. However, if the main system gets an overhaul and things change for the better, stunlock will have to be revised, ONLY if defenses are winnable without it. Otherwise, like currently, is a broken aspect that somehow helps dealing with other broken aspects of the PvP.
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prpi
prpi

Tavern Dweller
posted July 27, 2017 12:45 PM

I may add:

-) Expand the bonus on a fully packed dungeon not only to boss waves but to all waves. A fully packed five-wave dungeon should give a higher bonus than a fully packed three-wave dungeon.

I really like the idea of a customized dungeon and may add the following idea. Players could earn better dungeons / dungeon slots in quests/battle tower/pvp. This could give high level players an edge over low level players and decrease the danger of being beaten by a low level player.

However, all these suggestions may lead to the consequence that dungeon defense gets too strong and that low level players will be an easy prey for high level players as their maximum firepower is (still) limited to five creatures and that defense gets more important than attack.

PP

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scurvynaive
scurvynaive


Adventuring Hero
posted July 27, 2017 06:42 PM

Galaad said:
Even with all the problems it has, I do enjoy PvP, but some issues are here for too long and I really hope the devs can make it better.
Finally found some time to gather my thoughts, some of the suggestions below have already been requested but never hurt to insist.
Don't hesitate to comment, say if you agree or not, and post your own ideas.


Customizable layouts

That would be a great way for everybody to be able to defend with the creatures he got. What I mean by this is there would be a fixed formula. Let me try to explain.
Right now, we have a set template for 3 waves and a few other 5 waves templates rotating every week.
What I would like is a template that I could configure myself, making the best one out of the creatures I got. For instance, if some wave of a template offers one Epic slot, I would like to be able to chose if I want it ground or flyer. I wouldn't know for sure the better values, for instance I could have X amount of smalls in a wave and Y amount of mediums, but the amount of either one of them would influence on the amount of the other. Say there is a row offering two mediums, I could turn that into four smalls.
I genuinely believe this would allow for more variety in setups as well as opening more choices to defender's creativity.

Waves need to become more challenging as we progress the dungeon

With specials up, defenders are like child's play. The hardest part of a dungeon will always be first wave as you have no mana. If you make it through first wave without losses, victory is pretty much guaranteed, as you have your specials up and all you need to do is shoot them. There could be a few ways doing that.

- Ending a wave drains some of your mana for the next one.
- Drastically increase defenders resistance to specials.
- Give Bosses a 100% stun immunity for first strike.
- Have creatures stats grow exponentially and significantly from a wave to the next one.
- Change the RNG dots value in a way that everyone will act faster (4 dots would go like 5 dots, 3 dots like 4 etc). Truth is judging from the meta full 4 dots defenses can still be beaten without trouble.
- Allow glass-cannon Bosses to have support creatures.

There is probably other ways but that's all I can think of for now.

Prestige loss cap

I think this one has been asked for for ages, there is nothing more frustrating for a player aiming to the top spots to get hit for -300 prestige in last minutes by some lowbie who's not even aiming at any reward particulary and just hit your for the fun. Attacker would still get normal prestige for defeating someone much higher but defender wouldn't lose more than 200.

Introduce a grace period for multiple hits

Multiple hits is one workaround for how broken the defenses are, as it allows player to negate the retal. Grace period shouldn't be too long either otherwise the one who will revenge only has to wait for target to gain more prestige. However, getting hit 4-5 times while sleeping by same person has been frustrating to anyone to whom it happened. I suggest grace period to be 5 hours, same as charging Cps back seems fair.

Stunlock is broken yet mandatory

I am not saying anything about stunlock, as currently stunlock is the only way to stop attackers. However, if the main system gets an overhaul and things change for the better, stunlock will have to be revised, ONLY if defenses are winnable without it. Otherwise, like currently, is a broken aspect that somehow helps dealing with other broken aspects of the PvP.


Some good ideas there but I think we need to wait and see what happens after the upcoming changes before making more.

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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
aka Titanu88
posted July 28, 2017 09:10 AM

I just had a great(?) idea, it just hit me. This is also easy to implement and could help a lot in PVP.
What do you think about implementing AURAS?. This way a buff/debuff could take effect right from the start of the round.
- Imagine a boss with a +40% protection aura, is gona be a real gamble if you can or can't stun him .
- Or a boss with decrease PWR aura, this way you will be forced to bring into the fight creatures with specials based on ATK to be sure you dmg is not gonna be too small during the boss fight.
- The auras could be boss skills only or even better this could also be a skill for the small medium and large creatures.

Starting a wave with a powerful debuff or buff could really be a game changer for the current PVP meta.

Currently the game has some nice buff/debuff creatures, but the drawback is that you have to wait for them to hit their special before the buff/debuff actually take place.
Some creatures should keep the effect as a castable buff/debuff and some could be reorked to have the buff/debuff as a permanent aura(as long as the creature is alive).

I'll also add my other suggestions here:
- find a way to make the waves following up the 1st wave more challenging(a way to lose mana?)

- cherry picking your adversaries should not be an option. Being forced to fight Random opponents could be a nice way to balance a bit off/deff percentages, this way you can't always pick adversaries tat you know you can beat.

- additional small and medium creatures with new abilities - this will give more option to build up a good defense

- BOSS fights should feel more like a real fight, not just as it currently is, stun-nuke him and that's it fight over. For me personally the most entertaining moments in creature quest were the fights I had Versus the boss in tower lvl 51 and versus the Archangel because I had to think a strategy against those boss creatures, I was forced to use my brain and that was indeed entertaining  A possible answer to this could be Boosting AND nerfing the boss creatures:    boost his HP multiplier in dungeons. The boss should survive enough in order to attack at least once, BUT his one attack should not be enough to wipe out a whole team.

- fix poison & burn mechanics -> this will also add more strategies/options/diversity to PVP fights:

POISON needs a rework in this game, it is almost useless as it is now.

Scenario example:
if you have a swamp terror and a mosquito in the same wave in your dungeon defense: you'll think
~ nice! the mosquito's special will trigger first and poison 4/5 enemies and then the swamp terror will trigger his passive to take less dmg from poisoned enemies.
~ sounds good in theory but  the problem is that: the poison is not stacking with itself or with other poisons!, if the mosquito poisons first ( 8 rounds 20% PWR as poison) then the swamp terror's poison(which is much stronger) will be totally ignored.

Another case:
~ You have a 4-dots swamp terror in wave 1, that means he can use his special attack once every 3 turns, let's say he manage to link two special attacks in a row: turn1- enemy creatureX attacks, turn2- SwampTerror poisons the whole row, turn3, turn4, turn5, turn 6 Swamp terror poisons the whole row again -> here is the issue: since the poison is not stacking, the special attack will not apply any poison to creatures that didn't took any action since the first poison instance or will just refresh the 3 turns poison for creatures that took any action since the initial poison instance.
It should add poison turns instead, or make it detonate if the same poison debuff is applied or anything, but currently poison not stacking is a huge drawback!
*Same broken game mechanics for burns..


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Stormrider
Stormrider


Hired Hero
posted August 01, 2017 12:20 PM

Do not set up your team like this

This video showed a great example of a bad team arrangement.
If you want to keep your Boss strong, don't do this.
https://youtu.be/nPD21qpF4x0

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 01, 2017 01:45 PM

Stormrider said:
This video showed a great example of a bad team arrangement.


Ironically, these types of waves are the only ones that can -depending on the RNG- eventually stop me as I can't fill up my mana within first turn, they are the reason I don't have 100% ATK rate (and I usually like to keep trying same I can't pass until I pass it). The idea behind this type of waves is to stunlock attacker so he doesn't make it to the Boss wave, then it doesn't matter if Boss is weak, as you're dead before reaching his sight.

In general I think you are right though as it seems full dungeons tend to have a less worse defense rate than these, it rarely happens but when a Boss resists a stun you better be prepared.

I am looking forward to the upcoming balance changes and hope they will strengthen defenses and make them more work as intended. I somehow feel more creatures need tweaking though.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted August 03, 2017 04:25 PM

So guys, some feedback about the changes in the dungeon. Does the new attack list satisfy anyone?
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur.
Use this code in Creature Quest! t2QEc#j7h

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Antalex
Antalex


Hired Hero
posted August 04, 2017 12:02 AM

I always like to have more choices instead of few ones :-)

What i would like to be changed is the defence rate.

Dungeon challenge defence should be able to get at least 50-60% of defence rate with a well composed team.

Also, i would like to have an attack team setup before every challenge that is like the dungeon you attack.

For example: you need to setup a team composed by 1small + 2 medium + 1 large + 1 epic (or something similar...)

This will make the game more strategic and balanced...



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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
aka Titanu88
posted August 04, 2017 12:26 PM

Antalex said:


Also, i would like to have an attack team setup before every challenge that is like the dungeon you attack.

For example: you need to setup a team composed by 1small + 2 medium + 1 large + 1 epic (or something similar...)
This will make the game more strategic and balanced...



I like this idea! A set of rules and constrains applied to the attacking team.

Of course this should not apply every week, we still need to keep the 'free for all' no restriction attacking team as it is now. But could include one week/month in which the attacking team is constraint to use, like Antalex said, at least a small creature, or at least a rare, etc.

This could be a nice way to give a chance to score higher ranks to newer players, that lack a team formed of 5/5 legendary creatures.

So +1 from me for this ideea

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HeathenBard
HeathenBard

Tavern Dweller
posted August 11, 2017 08:35 AM

replied with this on a Reddit thread, thought it may boost the signal by posting it here as well. Hoping someone from the CQ team takes notice.

When you can jumble most any five Legendaries together to beat content (apart for those dungeon owners lucky enough to have been playing during the events to farm Draconic Templars/Beetles/Walruses) that doesn't imbue them with a lot of worth. Make them have more personality and character. Make buffs/debuffs mean more in more places. Make color matter more in places. Make abilities game changers in certain places. Give us reason to shift our party and use the cards we were SO EXCITED to pull!

Beating someone's dungeon should be like figuring out a puzzle. Finding where your strengths can expose weaknesses. Punish dungeon owners for not completely filling out a dungeon. Make each floor vital engaging...Because of color/abilities/ingenuity...Not because you happen to have three overpowered cards.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 11, 2017 09:13 AM

HeathenBard said:
Beating someone's dungeon should be like figuring out a puzzle. Finding where your strengths can expose weaknesses. Punish dungeon owners for not completely filling out a dungeon. Make each floor vital engaging...Because of color/abilities/ingenuity...Not because you happen to have three overpowered cards.


Very well said, I concur with the puzzle image. The real problem is while wave 1 can kill you, *if you survive it* the rest is a breeze (because of mana fill). I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of it and we even have Hanzo who recently joined our humble community, making sure the feedback posted here goes through the designers ears.
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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted August 11, 2017 11:54 PM

Here comes my little rant for the day.

The new 5 opponent system in dungeon challenge is really making life hard for low-level players with above average prestige. I'm now up to 93 defenses since the start of the event, and the only people I've attacked that were not revenge were the first five blue balls I spent. Since then my revenge list has not been empty. It's like the last hours of an event - all the time.

I don't know if the algorithm was changed, or it's just that you end up on more people's attack list. I get the logic of players anyway. Attacking a low-level player gives less risk of a successful revenge, since most defenses are easily passed anyway. It's always been that way, and I do it myself. The average level of attackers is almost twice my own level. Now I don't mind being attacked by high level players per se. I successfully revenge 95% of them, so in that regard it works in my advantage. It's just the sheer volume of attacks that dramatically increased after the new system was introduced. I never get to choose which dungeon to attack myself, which takes away a lot of the fun.

I should end with some constructive solutions, but that will be for another time.

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