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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Forge mentality
Thread: Forge mentality This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2017 02:34 PM

One problem with OP towns is the external dwellings increasing the growth by one. Ok, level 7 grows just one even with castle, no wait, since I have two external dwellings it grows 3, level 2 only grows 5 but since I have 3 external dwellings... That's why they went with so many troubles with the level 8 in WoG. Not that WoG is ballanced in anyway, is just amazing.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2017 05:26 PM

good point. and just like in the "making maps harder" thread, you can leave only one way into said external dwelling, where you'll have to fight each time you want to recruit. easy peasy. besides, can't you create a creature number cap through erm each week? that would prevent a player/ai from being overpowered through numbers alone.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 05:59 PM
Edited by salubri at 18:09, 21 Jun 2017.

Baronus said:
If you edit other cities forge will not be strong :-) Where is sense?
Covenant is techno city like forge and easy can be add with fited story. But forge and peasant? How looks fight tridents contra tanks? And I think about sense like this. Not about story. Forge faction was removed because player protested, dont fit to knights, peasants, pikemans etc.


I dont want to edit other cities. I want to edit forge. Very high prices will prevent you from buying a huge army even if you have other buildings of the faction under control. This is not a city where you can buy all the troops and march into battle. This is where you think what to buy and what to leave. Even with my experimental forge it is a huge problem when you need to buy at least one juggernaut while my opponent has 6 titans. I think i made prices way too high.

Covenant town is from Halo games how does that make sence? Whats next? Deus-ex town?

They tried to add forge because there was no ancient technology in heroes games. Heroes games are in the world filled with technology beyond wildest imaginations. Inferno faction arrived from the other planets via mothership. The reason there is no technology shown in H3 is because it takes place in time after the mothership was destroyed in MM6. Players protested cause they didnt know any history. Heroes games are not medieval games. If you want medieval then you must remove inferno faction cause it is an alien faction that came here using advanced technology. Knights, peasants and aliens... Somehow doesnt make sence. You also need to remove conflux cause they appeared because of Escaton who was sent here by the ancients and i could go on and on but dont deny sci-fi elements that led to the creation of this game. Play M&M games. Learn more about the world of might and magic.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 21, 2017 06:10 PM

salubri said:

I dont want to edit other cities. I want to edit forge. Very high prices will prevent you from buying a huge army even if you have other buildings of the faction under control. This is not a city where you can buy all the troops and march into battle.



So please edit existing Forge: http://www.vcmi.acidcave.net/mdt_forge_jednostki.html
I would love to play this town again with your changes!

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 07:10 PM
Edited by salubri at 19:11, 21 Jun 2017.

avatar said:
salubri said:

I dont want to edit other cities. I want to edit forge. Very high prices will prevent you from buying a huge army even if you have other buildings of the faction under control. This is not a city where you can buy all the troops and march into battle.



So please edit existing Forge: http://www.vcmi.acidcave.net/mdt_forge_jednostki.html
I would love to play this town again with your changes!


Well its an experimental prototype. It would take some time to reedit all that i edited in factory faction. Heroes, buildings, creature stats and abilities. I could give you the files for the edited factory faction that you could replace. There are way too many things left to balance. Building prices can be edited for balance. Like adding oil rig (official structure) for more money. I think all forge heroes will have estates skill. So i think a nerf for this faction would be Heroes with no specialties that would benefit units. All heroes that i edited have resource, money or spell speciality. All heroes have estates skill. So they waste one skill slot just to be able to buy units when other factions can use that slot to learn armorer of offence skills to benefit units. Of course you could just buy other hero from tavern but that hero might have a bad speciality for forge like stronger golems. All forge heroes start with one zombie or grunt. Other factions have buildings that give stats or learn a skill but forge would have no such buildings. Everything would be based on resouces in order to reduce penalty of such high prices on everything. So there are so many ways i could balance this city but i want to hear what others think. Where and how to do it better.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 21, 2017 07:23 PM

salubri said:
All forge heroes start with one zombie or grunt.

Ah, you're talking about Factory Town not MDT Forge. Too bad, I really love these leechers!
____________

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2017 07:39 PM

Heroes I-II are only medieval. Heroes III too. If you think that forge is ok why you write that covenant is not? Second non medieval city:-)
>>>
Covenant town is from Halo games how does that make sence? Whats next? Deus-ex town?
>>>
You are talking to me? I DONT WANT TECHNO CITIES IN CLASSIC HEROES III! BOTH! FORGE AND COVENANT!

But if you want forge I told to remove medieval content. And add more sensible techno. Covenant is ancient technology! Easy story.

Big prices and big power? It is warlock city in HI. It was done and it was wrong.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2017 08:28 PM

Baronus said:
You are talking to me? I DONT WANT TECHNO CITIES IN CLASSIC HEROES III! BOTH! FORGE AND COVENANT!


then don't play them. you don't have to play anything you don't want to play. nobody's putting a gun to your head. your opinion that forge doesn't belong, in a FORGE thread, means nothing(and might as well be labeled as trolling). do you understand? people like you are the reason we got conflux instead of forge in the first place. gtfo, please.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 09:07 PM

avatar said:
salubri said:
All forge heroes start with one zombie or grunt.

Ah, you're talking about Factory Town not MDT Forge. Too bad, I really love these leechers!


I used factory cause its town screen looks more like original forge in the screenshots. I dont know how to change buildings so factory was the only option.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 21, 2017 09:50 PM

Baronus said:
Heroes I-II are only medieval. Heroes III too. If you think that forge is ok why you write that covenant is not? Second non medieval city:-)
>>>
Covenant town is from Halo games how does that make sence? Whats next? Deus-ex town?
>>>
You are talking to me? I DONT WANT TECHNO CITIES IN CLASSIC HEROES III! BOTH! FORGE AND COVENANT!

But if you want forge I told to remove medieval content. And add more sensible techno. Covenant is ancient technology! Easy story.

Big prices and big power? It is warlock city in HI. It was done and it was wrong.


The games are medieval when it comes to armies but not medieval when it comes to the world. I dont know about H1 but H2 took place in Enroth which has the Oracle with army of droids guarding its memory rooms. Not to mention the tomb of VARN which is a spaceship with its guardians. Its not about techno. Its about introducing the technology of the ancients into heroes games. There was always a techno in heroes world but there were only a few surviving items and places containing these wonders. But heroes found a way to dublicate those items in M&M7 and here comes the forge. I was always questioning why there are blasters, spaceships, androids in the world of heroes but it was never introduced into heroes games. Not even an artifact blaster. I was against forge too until i learned more about the world of might and magic.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2017 12:35 AM

salubri said:
I was against forge too


i wasn't. and nobody else is now, unless they're pro-ubi.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2017 08:43 AM

ALL Heroes game has ONLY medieval content. Even intro to HIV has zero tech resources. I know MM universe. MMVII is not a Heroes game and has about 1 % non medieval resources. High tech content dont fit to heroes because fighting knights aggainist robots and tanks is a great nonsense.

IM NOT CONTRA FORGE! IM CONTRA FORGE INSIDE MEDIEVAL REST! Its Monty Python...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted June 22, 2017 10:04 AM

I'm not against the Forge Town per se, but it shouldn't be the gleaming high tech as shown in the concept screenshot, if you'd ask me. It's too sterile, too Apple-store, too Star Trek-y ... doesn't fit the medieval theme of the rest of the Towns at all. Especially if the Town would not just be used as adversary Towns during the campaign, but actually be playable by players in random maps and such.

Stuff like Steam Punk works pretty well, if you'd ask me. Dungeon Siege and World of Warcraft are two games where that was introduced in a pretty good fashion.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2017 12:48 PM
Edited by salubri at 12:56, 22 Jun 2017.

Baronus said:
ALL Heroes game has ONLY medieval content. Even intro to HIV has zero tech resources. I know MM universe. MMVII is not a Heroes game and has about 1 % non medieval resources. High tech content dont fit to heroes because fighting knights aggainist robots and tanks is a great nonsense.

IM NOT CONTRA FORGE! IM CONTRA FORGE INSIDE MEDIEVAL REST! Its Monty Python...


Then you are playing the wrong game. Try kings bounty or something. It is more medieval when it comes to lore. 3do wanted to make forge as a reminder of what was lost when kreegans atacked the colonies. It doesnt fit maybe in this H3 time but i would fit if you could rewind the time a little bit when it was called the time of wonders i think. You are thinking about the theme and i am thinking about the lore and theme is nothing without the lore. Why would heroes use medieval army when there is an option now to use technology of the ancients. I played a game called Growlanser on psp. It was medieval until people there found ancient buried artifacts. So same here. Heroes remained medieval until they found a way to replicate the technology of the ancients. Yes knights and robots cause robots were always there. Yes it fits because it was not a medieval world to begin with. If you dont like it then just dont pick forge in the faction selection screen. There are many towns now that dont make any sence theme and lore wise in mods section but i just dont download them.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 22, 2017 01:21 PM

heroes 3 is not even a medieval game...medieval times were only on our planet, our reality. you mean, medieval-themed. and that's a totally different thing >_>

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2017 01:37 PM

Of course that medieval means "medieval like". This word is used in game critics in eng. language and dont means historical games. See game articles in net.
If Heroes III is for you non medieval sci fi high tech game ok. Your right, but I dont see sense to discuss in this case. I told what I see, you see something another. There is no solution if both see another in the same.

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 22, 2017 04:51 PM

I support Baronus. I hate Forge, I don't need write a ugly. Do you know Corribus? Merry midsummer! Mental disabled support to Forge, when the future robot I know that Eagle Eye is a good EDIT I'm drunk by midsummer in North where the Sun never go down in 19.6-25.6. I'm from North King

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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 22, 2017 10:30 PM
Edited by Xfing at 22:53, 22 Jun 2017.

The city as NWC envisioned it wouldn't necessarily be uncompetitive. Like I said, it would pose a big challenge in the campaigns because the map makers can control the number of obstacle monsters and those in the enemy's army. But in a fair match starting from scratch, the smaller growth would definitely bring Forge back in line with the other towns. Individually superior units, but numerically inferior and costly ones. IF you don't think this could work balance-wise - the Phoenixes are the crappiest T7 unit, and yet they're the most OP of them all because there's twice as many of them. It would basically be doing the opposite with the Dreadnought.

Also, steampunk? Boring and done to death in just about every modern fantasy franchise. Also, it shows through in the Tower town, especially the Golem Factory. Star Trek technology worked so well in Might and Magic because it was jarring, but also amazingly risqe and added tons of depth and excitement. The whole premise was really brave, and nowadays people sadly don't have the balls to try things like this. That's why I wouldn't mind the Forge in the slightest.

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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 22, 2017 10:42 PM
Edited by Xfing at 23:12, 22 Jun 2017.

Well, you really did have some good points here, gotta say! The special abilities in most cases are even better than the ones I proposed.

salubri said:

Grunt/Foot Soldier no obstacle penalty/no obstacle penalty, shoot twice (cause of blasters and blaster rifles)


No obstacle penalty is fine, though there should still be range penalty. Dunno about shooting twice though, that would make them super OP. Then again, that's kinda the point

Quote:

Cyber Dead/Cyber Zombie remove disease cause they are now more mechanical. Maybe add a little magic dmg resist (golem type) like 10-20%


Meh, dunno about that. They're just zombies with metal arms, nothing resistant about them. I think you may be right about disease, but I like the "open wounds" effect I came up with better.

Quote:

Pyro/Pyromaniac no retaliation for upgraded version.


Nah, I don't see that. They're just guys with flamethrowers, and not even dragons can stop you from retaliating, and their attacks do pretty much the same thing.

Quote:

Stinger/Bruiser it's ok but no wall dmg. Instead of that AOE atack like death cloud. (missle explosion)
Quote:


Believe it or not, I thought about that just before opening this thread today! Yeah, exploding missiles should definitely be a thing. Add to that the no range and obstacle penalty of the Bruiser and you've got yourself a pretty OP unit. I'd still keep the siege option though.

Quote:

Jump Trooper/Jump Soldier replace abilities with harpie abilities. Strike and return/ strike and return, no retaliation.


Kinda makes sense. I still had no retaliation listed, but this is pretty logical.

Quote:

Tank/Heavy Tank sounds ok but i want to nerf it to cerberus type atack and add no retaliation to upgraded version like upgraded nagas have. (i like that you didnt remove nagas ranged weapons like in concept art. she can have them and still be hand to hand fighter)


You're right. All around them is too much, they can't really fire in a cone as wide. 3 hexes like the Cerberus would be alright. I'm not sure if no counter should be an option, since the Jump Soldiers already have that. Maybe just give the upgraded ones the basic harpy ability of returning after an attack and give only the upgraded tanks no counter? Yeah, it would in fact be more logical, with them laying suppressing fire with their uzis and all.

Quote:

Juggernaut/Dreadnought mechanical (so no morale or luck, certain spells have no effect) golem type (gold and diamond) magic dmg resist. Immune to slow.


Agreed with pretty much everything here, amazingly good points. Stone and iron golems do have the same type of resist too though. Due to the unit's size I'd give them 50% magic damage reduction. Immune to slow is quite sensible, though to be honest in my mind's eye I see these units as basically tanks too, though much bigger, heavier and kinda cubic. At any rate, they do have to be big and bulky, whatever shape you go with.

And I'd play the crap outta a forge like this! I need to write these unit specs down somewhere, they might be needed for suggesting to some designers sometime

EDIT: You said you'd be interested in making a Forge mod yourself - well what do you say you try the unit stats I proposed? I made them to be very powerful and borderline OP, but did so within reason. I think the values would be pretty good, along with the cost and growth.

Baronus said:
If you edit other cities forge will not be strong :-) Where is sense?
Covenant is techno city like forge and easy can be add with fited story. But forge and peasant? How looks fight tridents contra tanks? And I think about sense like this. Not about story. Forge faction was removed because player protested, dont fit to knights, peasants, pikemans etc.


About this - it now just occurred to me too, so let me say this - HoMM 1 and 2 were not originally intended to be within the same universe as MM 1-5. Originally JVC didn't intend to make any more MM games after World of Xeen. But after the success of HoMM 1 and 2 he decided to go through with it, by setting MM6 on Enroth. That was in 1998. Armageddon's Blade came out in 1999. So you can't say JVC and NWC really procrastinated with integrating the universes on Heroes' end too - it came out (and would have come out with Forge) only a year after MM6 did. If there was any problem, it was setting Heroes 1 and 2 in a high fantasy setting and not realizing that the fanbase of these games probably didn't have much experience with the DOS-era MM titles. HoMM2 came out 2 years earlier than MM6 did too, so there was some reinforcement of the playerbase in their preferred setting. Still, the situation was much better than it is now - now people have played Heroes 3 for close to 20 years and many still don't realize the universe's sci-fi underpinnings. But make no mistake - Enroth became science-fantasy the moment MM6 was released. Erathia would have too a year later, had it not been for closed-minded, uneducated fans.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 23, 2017 07:37 PM

I think that John back to scifi in MMVI. But even in MMVI its only one tech location Control Center and small piece Tomb of VARN it is only Egypt like pyramide. In MMVII only Lincoln and some blasters before. Small piece of intro and outro.Tech is 1 to 2% MMVI,VII In Jadame only outro is little tech small robo and Escatons body... 99% MM is medieval like.
Forge in first concept was bad implementation this idea. I want it good because idea was good but how to realise it?
I not contra forge mods!  I ONLY TOLD HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY! 1 forge + 9 medieval cities is absurd. But now in VCMI we can do a lot of techno factions! Do if you like!

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