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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Forge mentality
Thread: Forge mentality This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2017 08:26 PM

i think there's a communication gap here. i could've SWORN that you were a "hater" of forge.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted June 30, 2017 09:14 PM

Where? Where I told that forge by NWC was zero value because I envy creator succes? No I told it dont fit to rest. Its fact. I will never toll that it fit because its false!

This word means:
hater
Its precise definition.

True is first! I never tell lies. If someone has idea eg. add manga anime city I never tell hurrah! Great Its it. But - think about your time and work. It dont fit to rest. It will be fail. To do it correctly you must replace all graphic... But if you want one city its your work... The same forge. Sci fi style graphic replacment is ok! But if you want want only one city ok. But I think it will be one play casual city. People fell that dont fit. Remember WHY NWC remove forge! It still works! For 99% people Heroes III is only medieval like game! Because its only game look!

In all city I do, resources are stricte HIII style: Plane of the Earth, Regna city are NWC orignals Court is not but its HIII style.

I dont told any idea is good beacuse its free work. Im little skilled in art and I must tell modders what is good or not if I see mistakes. If someone gives sensible arguments its not a problem. ITS HELP! Problem is when non skilled people made random talk about things they know nothing. Eg. that "if two creatures are from stone its a clone". Its bla bla. This talk is in true like snow in summer...


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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2017 09:51 PM

Baronus said:
Remember WHY NWC remove forge! It still works! For 99% people Heroes III is only medieval like game!


those "99% people" also snowed whenever they found how jacked up conflux was. those "99% people" needed(and still needs) a perception reallignment. being a majority, doesn't make what they stand for, right. sometimes, the majority just need to stfu. because they're wrong.

of course, other times, they need to speak up. the majority seem to have their priorities entirely backward; or they don't align with what's best for everyone/everything. but that's an osm discussion.

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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted July 07, 2017 04:12 PM

If the creators thought Forge technology fit the Heroes universe, then it fit the Heroes universe, simple as that.

Whether or not putting futuristic technology next to medieval units is jarring or not, if you create a story that justifies them being next to each other, there can be no talk of fitting or not fitting. And the story that would lead to Forge is every bit as convincing as any other story out there - in fact more than the final Armageddon's Blade story we got - the Kreegans were originally meant to be gone with the death of Xenofex, remember?

Science fantasy is a valid genre, even in literature.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2017 04:21 PM

Xfing said:
If the creators thought Forge technology fit the Heroes universe,

Maybe you are being too naive about that, they had another franchise, the Might and Magic series, already using it and may have wanted to make a bridge, so they could sell more of both. Not that I see a problem with Forge theme.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2017 04:45 PM

If the creators thought Forge technology fit the Heroes universe, then it fit the Heroes universe, simple as that.

....

Genial! :-) So craps and fails are impossible all what creators do it always fit... and is good... Sorry. Clearly forge dont fited to medieval HIII and really I dont know what you want to achieve? True is true. Dont fight with true its road to nowhere.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted July 07, 2017 05:12 PM

bloodsucker said:
Maybe you are being too naive about that, they had another franchise, the Might and Magic series, already using it and may have wanted to make a bridge, so they could sell more of both. Not that I see a problem with Forge theme.


that was for sure bridged already by Might and Magic 6 before any Forge was invented mate, bear in mind Might and Magic 6 was set in the Heroes world and used the same Heroes characters style and story, putting in a small aspect like a Forge or a dog biscuit or whatnot will not increase that much lol
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 07, 2017 07:07 PM
Edited by artu at 19:08, 07 Jul 2017.

And more than 15 years later, people still argue what might have been... a disaster or a triumph?

I think Forge sucks. I wouldnt want to play a random Heroes 3 map and come across techno bases all over the place. Conflux may not be perfect but at least it fits in with the theme. A faction that unconventional can be nice for a change as a mod but it would be unavoidably and untastefully overdominant in mainstream game.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted July 08, 2017 01:36 AM

artu said:
I think Forge sucks. I wouldnt want to play a random Heroes 3 map and come across techno bases all over the place. Conflux may not be perfect but at least it fits in with the theme. A faction that unconventional can be nice for a change as a mod but it would be unavoidably and untastefully overdominant in mainstream game.


bear in mind that is the flawed premise mate, Forge was campaign only faction by default and not a random town so you will only face cyber bases and jetpacks if the mapmaker specifically puts them in, not in a garden variety map to play with a coffee and donut lol

also Conflux was already coming anyway for the second expansion but when the death threat came in they had to rush it through to fill a Forge gap, thus it was crap and underdesigned lol

the end result of that stupid backlash was to get one ****** town rushed out the door over two expansions when instead we could have had same town but much better quality and a whole new optional town as well if we want to use it, also it all completely ****** Heroes 4 which lost its designer because of the death threat and even ****** future games by giving Erwin prejudicial ideas about cyborgs, what a big disaster lol

for sure those people lacked perspective and were very abusive to NWC who made a great game, where are they now with their abuse, cheers to them lol, I think they would think twice about their nasty abuse of the series creators if they could see what Ubisoft would have their way with it later lol
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 08, 2017 03:37 AM

verriker said:
for sure those people lacked perspective and were very abusive to NWC who made a great game, where are they now with their abuse, cheers to them lol, I think they would think twice about their nasty abuse of the series creators if they could see what Ubisoft would have their way with it later lol


hopefully they all drowned in their own tears of dismay at what they had wrought upon this world.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 09, 2017 12:47 AM
Edited by Stevie at 00:50, 09 Jul 2017.

verriker said:
artu said:
I think Forge sucks. I wouldnt want to play a random Heroes 3 map and come across techno bases all over the place. Conflux may not be perfect but at least it fits in with the theme. A faction that unconventional can be nice for a change as a mod but it would be unavoidably and untastefully overdominant in mainstream game.


bear in mind that is the flawed premise mate, Forge was campaign only faction by default and not a random town so you will only face cyber bases and jetpacks if the mapmaker specifically puts them in, not in a garden variety map to play with a coffee and donut lol

also Conflux was already coming anyway for the second expansion but when the death threat came in they had to rush it through to fill a Forge gap, thus it was crap and underdesigned lol

the end result of that stupid backlash was to get one ****** town rushed out the door over two expansions when instead we could have had same town but much better quality and a whole new optional town as well if we want to use it, also it all completely ****** Heroes 4 which lost its designer because of the death threat and even ****** future games by giving Erwin prejudicial ideas about cyborgs, what a big disaster lol

for sure those people lacked perspective and were very abusive to NWC who made a great game, where are they now with their abuse, cheers to them lol, I think they would think twice about their nasty abuse of the series creators if they could see what Ubisoft would have their way with it later lol


Where exactly was it mentioned that Forge was a campaign only town excluded from random templates? I find it extremely odd and improbable that any town would be banned from the rmg by default, especially considering how the replacement for the almost finished Forge which was the rushed and underdesigned Conflux still made it right in without any prejudice. I searched for a source and couldn't find one not even on the wikis, so mind if you back up that claim?

And do you seriously believe that they had to do anything following that death threat except maybe report it to the police? Which they didn't, for all we know. It doesn't necessarily follow that someone has to quit their job if they got a death threat, that was just a convenient excuse from Gregory Fulton to exit the scene after the overwhelming rejection of Forge by the community. He could've just as well dismiss it for the nonsense that it was and carry on with his work, but he didn't. Introducing heavy sci-fi elements in a setting that was presenting itself as predominantly fantasy themed was a risk that he very well understood if you are to read him between the lines. Why would he need to remind people that Inferno are not demons in the traditional sense, but aliens from outer space named Kreegans? Why would he say "If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack"? He understood the discrepancy between the theme, the setting and the atmosphere of Heroes 3 and the lore behind it. I would find it a way more believable variant if he quit as a gesture of taking responsibility for the actual big disaster that was pursuing Forge for an expansion. The death threat was an excuse, not the real reason. And regardless of what the truth might be, the fact that he quit his job and therefore prevented himself from working on Heroes 4 was entirely his own decision. He never had to do that, but nonetheless that's what he chose to do.

As for the backlash, I wouldn't call it stupid, more like warranted and expected. Nor would I say that the people were lacking vision, they were only defending the vision they'd been spoonfed up to that point, a vision they perceived that NWC was trying to stray from or even tarnish with foreign elements not belonging to the fantasy theme. Nor do I think you can call negative feedback an abuse, but then again that's just my 2 cents.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted July 09, 2017 01:01 AM

fred79 said:
hopefully they all drowned in their own tears of dismay at what they had wrought upon this world.


I certainly hope so fred mate, that would be the appropriate reaction if I were them cheers lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 09, 2017 01:07 AM

Stevie said:
I find it extremely odd and improbable that any town would be banned from the rmg by default


Considering Forge's nature and how it was received then I find it a wise thing to do. People not liking it would not have suffered from it outside of campaigns. Forge was to tie the world of Might and Magic to its Heroes spin-off, it was more on the conceptual side than anything else. The community overreacted and most importantly couldn't trust the people who gave them a no-mistake run since the start, which is pretty disgraceful IMO
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 09, 2017 03:42 AM

The only issue I see having forge exist, is having forge creatures spawn on creature weeks when there isn't a forge castle in the map. Which is why it kinda makes sense that forge would strictly be used for campaigns; unless a map maker specifically added it as part of the story.

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Known Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 09, 2017 10:58 AM
Edited by AnkVaati at 10:59, 09 Jul 2017.

verriker said:
the end result of that stupid backlash was to get one ****** town rushed out the door over two expansions when instead we could have had same town but much better quality and a whole new optional town as well if we want to use it, also it all completely ****** Heroes 4 which lost its designer because of the death threat and even ****** future games by giving Erwin prejudicial ideas about cyborgs, what a big disaster lol
QUOTED FOR EMPHASIS.

I say the more the merrier. I liked Conflux (the idea and general theme behind it, not really how it was done) and probably wouldn't be big on sci-fi stuff, but that can be fixed by some custom settings anyway. Dunno how many maps I've edited over the years to make sure Castle, Inferno and Necropolis wouldn't appear, because I don't like either of them. Streamlining is a much bigger threat to any game series than any custom features we can just ignore if we don't appreciate them - makes sure that the only thing we'll ever get will be another variant of the stereotypical noble humans, the tree hugging elves, the kinky dark elves etc. - and we'll never have the option of disabling all of those.
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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted July 09, 2017 08:18 PM

Baronus said:
If the creators thought Forge technology fit the Heroes universe, then it fit the Heroes universe, simple as that.

....

Genial! :-) So craps and fails are impossible all what creators do it always fit... and is good... Sorry. Clearly forge dont fited to medieval HIII and really I dont know what you want to achieve? True is true. Dont fight with true its road to nowhere.


First of all - NWC had a pretty amazing track record with all their games, it's the fans' fault that they were ignorant of Might and Magic, not the studio's for making Might and Magic.

Second of all, you seem to be confusing "truth" with "your opinion". You're saying Forge doesn't fit and acting as if these are objective facts. They're clearly not. Stop acting like that.

Stevie said:
. It doesn't necessarily follow that someone has to quit their job if they got a death threat, that was just a convenient excuse from Gregory Fulton to exit the scene after the overwhelming rejection of Forge by the community.


"About 5%" is hardly "overwhelming". It's 3DO that screwed the pooch that time, as they thought that would be too much of a financial risk. They turned out to be stupid too, considering how much people cry and snow these days about the slightest annoyances in games, promising they'll never buy the next one again - and they always do anyway

Galaad said:

Forge was to tie the world of Might and Magic to its Heroes spin-off, it was more on the conceptual side than anything else. The community overreacted and most importantly couldn't trust the people who gave them a no-mistake run since the start, which is pretty disgraceful IMO


This a hundred times. They couldn't even shut up and think for five minutes that maybe a studio capable of making some of the best PC games ever released should be trusted on their artistic vision.

I think this in fact may have contributed to a shift in the market at large, where developers started being afraid of pushing boundaries. Does anyone know any modern science-fantasy video game not out of Japan? I'd sure as hell would like to know one.

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Known Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 09, 2017 09:07 PM

Xfing said:
I think this in fact may have contributed to a shift in the market at large, where developers started being afraid of pushing boundaries. Does anyone know any modern science-fantasy video game not out of Japan? I'd sure as hell would like to know one.
Endless Legend, which was generally terrific* and reminded me of the real M&M universe. But other than that.. not really no. It had a devastating effect on both them and others and I'm sure they would have sold better if they had stuck to the original plan anyway.

(*apart from the fact that everyone dies in the end which is kinda disappointing for a world with such a potential )
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted July 09, 2017 09:15 PM

Knights dont fits to modern battle ground its FACT non my opinion. We dont have knights troops againist tanks. FACT non my opinion. Its ignorance telling something another.
We dont have scifi in HI, HII and in HIIIRoE dont see it too. So fans see what is. In this case fan perception and rating was good.
And design of this city was bad. Orcs, zombie, ogres, nagas, goblins its monster recycling dont needed.
We have:
1. Inferno - good realisation Kreegans motive in HIII reality. Who protest? None because it was good and fit.
2. Forge - bad realisation scifi motive. And protests.
Fact that in MM we have little scifi addon DOESNT MEAN that implementation it to HIII is a good idea. And doesnt mean that forge was good implementation of it. 3 another question.
NWC sell his product ON MARKET. It wasnt freeware. THEY MUST SEE WHAT CLIENTS WANT!!! Market is rating.
Glorification all NWC ideas is absurd.
I play this games, make mods and write about its tribute for creators. They made big and good work.
...
Big emotions in this question is weird. We have some mod forges and all can play. And good. But making tragedy that we dont have it since 1999 its absurd. HIII has unificated medieval look great mechanic, graphic and its the best  game ever.

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Known Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted July 09, 2017 09:50 PM
Edited by AnkVaati at 21:51, 09 Jul 2017.

Baronus said:
Knights dont fits to modern battle ground its FACT non my opinion. We dont have knights troops againist tanks. FACT non my opinion.
We don't have Archmages throwing fireballs on Knights either in the real world.. or Genies fighting Cyclops. FACT NOT OPINION.

Seriously though: I don't think the crowd having some kind of issues with everything not fitting according to some kind stereotype were ever representative of the M&M fanbase. Had that been the case, Heroes 5-7 would all have been extremely successful.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 09, 2017 10:59 PM

AnkVaati said:
We don't have Archmages throwing fireballs on Knights either in the real world.. or Genies fighting Cyclops. FACT NOT OPINION.


Those do fit the medieval setting quite a lot more than naga tanks and chainsaw zombies, though .
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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