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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The Matrix Sequels
Thread: The Matrix Sequels This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted July 09, 2017 10:54 AM

wrong , he fullfilled the prohpacy.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted July 09, 2017 11:14 AM

antipaladin said:
If you analyze the prophecy Smith is the chosen one, not neo. If you think otherwise you've missed the point. ..

The prophecy was about the one while Smith is the many. And besides the prophecy was made up by the machines to manipulate the living.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 09, 2017 11:35 AM

Elvin said:
And besides the prophecy was made up by the machines to manipulate the living.

Well, that's what I thought, too but then where exactly do you put the Oracle? In the end, she seems to be negotiating with the Architect on behalf of the humans and she is the one spreading the prophecy.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 09, 2017 11:46 AM

Pretty sure Smith was a virus that was threatening to completely take over the Matrix. Neo provided the direct link so that the deus ex machina could destroy Smith and by doing that he also gained peace between Zion and the machines. The prophecy wasn't the machines' work, it was the Oracle's. Her job as a program was to destabilize the Matrix while the Architect's was to stabilize it.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 09, 2017 01:51 PM
Edited by artu at 14:07, 09 Jul 2017.

Well, when he says "machines" he may be including the Oracle, since the Oracle is software designed by the machines. My question was, why would a software designed by the machines, for the machines, negotiate on behalf of the humans. This summary below explains it pretty well but the problem is the sequels are not very good at getting it cross. (Or maybe, since they are not captivating enough like the first one, you just stop paying attention at some point, I dont remember any dialogue from the sequels about this but then again I dont remember much dialogue at all.)

The Oracle was a program created to solve the problem of humans rejecting the Matrix. The Architect attempted to devise the perfect virtual reality so that the humans would stop rebelling and be under their control, which backfired for the first two versions of the Matrix. At this point the Architect seemed to be unable to solve the problem, it was felt that they needed to investigate the human psyche deeper. So they created a program which was intuitive enough and had enough human-like autonomy so that it could effectively investigate the human psychology to discover what the problem was. The Oracle was the intuitive compliment to the logical Architect. Then the Oracle stumbled on the solution of providing choice to humans. Humans reacted negatively when they were deprived of independence at the very deep neurological, psychological, subconscious, etc. level, which compromised compatibility with the Matrix and led it to fail. Give humans enough free space to do as they wish, things will work well. Humans that chose not to accept the Matrix were released, creating Zion in a manner controlled by the machines. It's not what the machines' prefer, but at least it could be controlled.

The Oracle, though her seemingly acting against the machines by cooperating with the One was within the framework of the machines' control, still had enough human-like autonomy, which was necessary for her to investigate the human psychology in the first place. It was under this condition that she concluded that the war was destructive and peace was necessary. She may have not been acknowledged as such 'officially', but she is as important as the Architect - the Architect is the father as the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix, the logical to the intuitive, the yin to the yang. So her conclusions are as valid as the Architect's. She is created for similar reason the Architect was created, so that the machines could survive. She foresaw that the war was going to destroy both the humans and machines, enough for her to embark on a dangerous game intended to lead both to peace. If she had to go this far, then we can only conclude that they were headed for a dangerous path indeed.

She must've sensed that the peace attained may eventually end, but as she said, 'It'll last as long as it can'. It was better than constant war. With peace there will be a long time for the humans and machines to develop and harmonize with their situation. The peace may end, but that's a worry for another time, perhaps far in the future, and whatever conflict that may arise maybe one that can be better managed.

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...and the laymen's landscape is rife with quacks and people with strange agendas. - Corribus

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 09, 2017 02:13 PM

Yea, that's fair enough. In all honesty, I think that The Matrix might be my favorite sci-fi universe out of all. The idea of a machine body unable to fully control the human spirit by means of virtual reality just blew my mind at the time. Even now I can still find a deeper layer of meaning behind all the action scenes and characters like the Architect and the Oracle. I just wish that maybe one day we could get a glympse at the first two worlds, the utopia and the dystopia that humankind rejected, and see how the Neo of those versions fared. Could be an idea for some prequels.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 09, 2017 02:40 PM
Edited by artu at 15:12, 09 Jul 2017.

The first two versions wouldn't have Neos. There is no Oracle, hence there is no prophecy in those versions. And there is no choice, so nobody is released to Zion in the first place. The first version is a heaven simulation where everybody is always happy and they don't have to choose anything. They probably just sit around like cows all day in constant joy and pleasure, which led to the problem of humans neurologically rejecting such a state of permanent happiness.
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...and the laymen's landscape is rife with quacks and people with strange agendas. - Corribus

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted July 09, 2017 07:12 PM

I love the theory that Neo is not the one. Here told by my fav youtuber MatPat lol
Matrix - NEO isn't the ONE

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted July 10, 2017 04:17 AM

Now I feel like I need to rewatch the trilogy lol. I didn't pay much attention

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 10, 2017 06:00 AM

They are really good at making you not pay attention.
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...and the laymen's landscape is rife with quacks and people with strange agendas. - Corribus

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted July 12, 2017 01:23 PM
Edited by frostysh at 13:30, 12 Jul 2017.

tSar-Ivor -
tSar-Ivor said:
Agent Smith's character went down the ****-pipe after the first movie.
I have my own theory , of course I have, if I have no any theory in this case, I cannot be called frostysh .

1) Mr Smith was loyal enough to An Architect.

2) A tragicomedy that has been made, has a main purpose to look what choice mr Anderson and mrs Trinity will take, it's seems An Architect is a something that likes a risk (TBOR ). So it has placed a bet, that mr Anderson and mrs Trinity will make a different choice than they made.

3) So the peoples, the "free" human population, that have leaves the Matrix, depicted there, with capital of Sion, living, fighting, suffering and dying for nothing. Just for fun.

4) Anyway, An Architect despite of a lose on a bet, reached some goals, that knows only to this huge, an overpowered monster.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted July 12, 2017 01:25 PM

artu said:
They are really good at making you not pay attention.
I agree. You used Italic for the Architect and Oracle explanation but you don't quote the source, is this your work? I know you right incredibly well and are a deep thinker but would like to read more if it isn't.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 12, 2017 01:40 PM

Stevie said:
Pretty sure Smith was a virus that was threatening to completely take over the Matrix. Neo provided the direct link so that the deus ex machina could destroy Smith and by doing that he also gained peace between Zion and the machines.


Actually, Smith was destroyed because he couldn't comprehend Neo. It's like a very delicate machine that missed 1 cog to make itself complete, but in using that very cog, it would blow itself up. A divide by zero error kinda deal.

Agent Smith more or less explains this to Neo in the end, that he needs Neo to achieve completion. Yet, Neo is the singularity, the 1 among the 0's, the oddball. Smith can't cope with that and crashes - hard. The Architect knew this, hence why he asked Neo to confront Smith in the first place.

Agent Smith is the result of an imbalance in the Matrix that grew out of control. Hence the need to make a new iteration, yet closer to perfection - just like all previous iterations brought it ever closer to perfection. It's a bit like a fractal in that way.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 12, 2017 01:55 PM

bloodsucker said:
You used Italic for the Architect and Oracle explanation but you don't quote the source, is this your work? I know you right incredibly well and are a deep thinker but would like to read more if it isn't.

It's a quote, hence the italics. I can't relocate the original text at the moment but that was all there is to it. I googled something similar to, if not exactly: Matrix + "why does the Oracle help humans?" and this was among the results in some forum.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Live today for we die tomorrow
posted July 12, 2017 01:56 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 14:04, 12 Jul 2017.

@Forfy
I doubt machines would gamble like that, if it was for any purpose it was to check the anomaly through unorthodox means, but creating another anomaly Agent Smith to do that is extremely flawed. Also notice the Architect never surrenders the idea that he is essentially in control, everything falls within an equation and thus can be solved. The trouble with human beings is that their mind allows them to think and believe of things that don't/cannot exist, more than that they are capable of acting on these de/illusions. That is why the architect scoffs when Neo chooses the path back to the Matrix and says that "Hope, the source of your greatest strength and weakness" and also refers to it as a delusion.

My point is, a machine doesn't gamble it calculates and appropriates the specific means for the achievement of whatever goal it deems necessary (in scifi you need AI to do this, machines by themselves exert no will, thus have no desires that require fulfilling beyond their programing and breakdown at the slightest inconsistency- error, ai is a fancy way of overcoming the fundamental flaw of machines that they have no purpose beyond their programming).

Not only that, machines are fundamentally flawed as well, while a programming can be precise, a machine that interracts with the material world cannot, so most have a specified room for error, like industrial machines will never cut a sheet of metal perfectly, there's always 0.001mm leeway (just an example).

I kinda wish they delved into Neo's origins a little more, would've loved to have seen some Rousseauian (he didnt coin the idea but a decent reference point nevertheless). It's part of the natural law of this world, that everything that exists and its mode of existence will determine the end, everything that has a beginning has an end and the type of end is predictable. The brighter you are the faster you burn out, the heavier you are the harder you fall, the more power you exert for your own security the more resistance you encounter, this is science.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness" Jenny.

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