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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Is Gal Gadot normalizing Israeli settlements?
Thread: Is Gal Gadot normalizing Israeli settlements? This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 29, 2017 05:00 PM

Salamandre said:
I would deport or imprison the whole families of terrorists apologists, to give an example.

I'm guessing this is just a hyperbole, one of the most fundamental basics of modern criminal law is that each individual is responsible for themselves and people can only be punished for their own acts. A perfectly peaceful, even examplary citizen can have a radical son or a brother, that is not something you can punish them for, that is not even something under their control.

@ antipaladin

Well, the thing is we are not talking about defending, are we? We are talking about expanding, and an unfalsifiable speculation of "if we dont expand, they will eventually kill us" is not exactly a solid basis for interpreting that expansion as an infinite line of preemtive strikes!
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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted June 29, 2017 05:25 PM
Edited by Kayna at 17:27, 29 Jun 2017.

Well, if we don't really know what her opinion is, then we can't exactly judge her opinion, now, can we?

It's entirely possible that she's just keeping quiet because she nows that if she did speak out, she would just corner herself into peer pressure of massive, even potentially deadly proportion and be replaced by another one willing to say "sir yes sir you are right sir"

Most actors and such are smart enough to keep their mouth shut for a while and make their money first.

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 29, 2017 05:29 PM

@artu partially, i mean if your child commits a crime, and you know of it, but choose to defendaid him, you'd be also charged as an exessive to fellony , wouldnt you?
@kenya +1, maybe because she , like 45% of israel population, rarely gives a snow about what happens with said colony's.
not to forget that israel goverment evaquates jewish colonys aswell from parts where it deems illigal too. so it works both ways.. just fallows own laws, and not this unable body you call UN,
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 29, 2017 08:55 PM

Salamandre said:
Anti, no clue why you want me to argue over your defense patterns. Actually I think EVERY country should defend as Israel does, and even harsher. I would deport or imprison the whole families of terrorists apologists, to give an example. What I don't support is illegal colonizing under the excuse of terrorism, because THIS is what creates terrorism in first place. Those people fights are legitimate in that case, and here your defense and acts look inappropriate.

That's missing the point, because in large parts of the Arab world the state of Israel still doesn't exist. Or, to put it from the Israeli side, as long as there aren't any official statements of a country or group or organization that amounts to accepting the right of the state of Israel to exist, those states are basically at war with Israel (there is no peace.
And why you would want to reintroduce Biblical kin liability is really beyond me either.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 29, 2017 09:08 PM

Well, with their current politics, the number of states that don't recognize Israel is increasing, not decreasing: Link
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 29, 2017 09:50 PM

@artu most of those countries do buy stuff that are made in israel shipped through turkey,  and have made in Turkey remmaped on them
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 29, 2017 09:57 PM
Edited by artu at 21:58, 29 Jun 2017.

So, all is okay as long as they buy the goods, spoken like a true jew
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 29, 2017 10:44 PM

artu said:
Well, with their current politics, the number of states that don't recognize Israel is increasing, not decreasing: Link
Current?
And why would Israel care?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 29, 2017 10:58 PM

Well, you said if a state does not recognize you, it is practically a state of war (which is arguable) and wars are not things that you want to drag on forever. They are bad for economy, they are bad for reputation, they are bad for tourism. Is it a wise policy to surrender yourself with enemies and keep creating more and more of them. The West will only support Israel as long as it fits their own interests and Middle East is full of countries that had been backed up for decades and then left all alone to collapse when the paradigm changes. You can not have a stable future by constantly aggravating all your neighbours.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 29, 2017 11:05 PM

If all your neighbors fight with clubs and axes while you have nuclear weapons, yes you can.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 29, 2017 11:09 PM

Except that it's the other way round with Israel. It's not what Israel does or not does, it's that the neighbouring countries never even acknowledged the existence of the state as such, and that won't change, NO MATTER what Israel does, be it aggressive or appeasing.

Or, in other words - if you are not recognized as a "human being" by other human beings, you don't make points with them by behaving like one. It's just not happening.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2017 12:14 AM

Well, as I already said, I dont see peace just over the horizon either but I think at some point things will start to improve little by little. It just wont drag on like this forever.
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I hope I am mistaking - frostysh

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 30, 2017 01:02 AM

JollyJoker said:
it's that the neighbouring countries never even acknowledged the existence of the state as such.
Of course they don't, do you want me to acknowledge the right of the guy that stole my wallet to keep it? They took the land by force and as Sal so admirably pointed their enemies are getting stupider and weaker everyday, but two wrongs don't make a right.
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 30, 2017 07:02 AM

No body took no ones land by invasion. if it was other way Around Israel Wouldn't exist.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 30, 2017 08:16 AM

It was never YOUR wallet, though. What is now "Israel" has been governed by a plethora of powers before Rome, then by Rome. In that time the JEWS were living there, the people of Juda, but when they rebelled against Rome, the result was the Jewish daispora. The Arabs followed, then the Crusaders (for 200 years!), then the Mameluks, then the Osmans until the end of WW1.
In this whole time it was never a country, but everyone regarded it as a part of Syria. It was more or less a wasteland and economically uninteresting.
However, from 1880 onwards Jews were coming back to the country. They already lived there AS WELL.

Anyway, after The Osman Empire had collapsed, Britain got the mandate by the League of Nations to make sure the Jews got a national home in the area, without violating the rights of other people (with different religion) living in the area. And while the Brits created Transjordan (which became the kingdom Jordan after WW") and separated it from the rest of the mandate country, they failed to fulfill the mandate - they simply DIDN'T DO what they were supposed to.

Which, to make it short, ended with the Jews doing it themselves after WW2, after the Arabs didn't accept the 2-country plus Jerusalem suggestion (which, ironically, they would after they lost all wars against Israel).

So, no, it was never ANYONE's wallet - when they couldn't agree about how to divide it, the Jews made the decision for everyone. If the Arabs had agreed with the plan, there would actually be 2 separate states plus an independent Jerusalem, THAT  is the thing to keep in mind here.

It's also already ridiculous to call it a WALLET - the region was more or less a worthless peice of mostly desert without any economic value, a pretty much EMPTY wallet, the difference being that it was of much more sentimental value to the Jews than anyone else, resulting in THEM starting to fill it again.

In short: they earned themselves the right to live their, by history, by force of weapons and by force of labor, and it's the OTHER religion that wasted their chances to be part of it, by losing each and every war about it in the 20. century and by failing to compromise and simply accept that the Jews have been living there, lived there again and wanted their own country.

Legal or not

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2017 09:04 AM

If your post was about why Israel exists, I dont think anybody would disagree, as Sal already pointed out, nobody (at least in this thread) is questioning their right to exist as a country. But they keep expanding periodically, violating many international laws, then rationalizing the move, if it was anybody else doing that, a Muslim country for instance, there'd be harsh U.S. interventions by now, dozens of them. The bottomline is, they are able to do what they do because they are supported by the U.S., without that support the consequences would be not worth it. They have nukes and Arabs don't, so they can do whatever they like is an oversimplification, nukes are not easy to decide to use and the other countries arent all "sticks and stones" either. Among the countries that dont recognize Israel, especially Iran is a significant military force in the region, not some post colonial backwater country. So at some point, Israel will have to develop a different foreign policy, because you cant build a stable one relying on the big brother over the Atlantic forever.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
Crotch Connoisseur
posted June 30, 2017 09:29 AM

artu said:
If your post was about why Israel exists, I dont think anybody would disagree, as Sal already pointed out, nobody (at least in this thread) is questioning their right to exist as a country.


until now. my stance on the whole thing is, why are religions still allowed to claim land? last i checked, the jewish were identified as a religion, the same as christians and muslims.

if anyone(jews, christians, muslims, etc) wants some religious paradise in order to practice their religion, might i suggest the sun? there's plenty of room there.


now, if, on the other hand, they ALL want to come together as one people, and take part in their beliefs with non-religious modern society in a PEACEFUL and NONAGGRESSIVE manner, then by all means, stay on earth. and this goes for every "i'm a special snowflake" group out there; religious or no.

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
of nastiness
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 30, 2017 09:32 AM

Quote:
if it was anybody else doing that, a Muslim country for instance, there'd be harsh U.S. interventions by now, dozens of them.

True. On the other hand, the UN wouldn't care as it is comprised of a lot of Muslim countries at this point. So it kind of evens out, no?
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geny is a meanie - fred79

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 30, 2017 09:40 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 09:44, 30 Jun 2017.

@Artu I agree with most of what you said BUT you seam to be forgetting how the US forced Iran to a no-proliferation nuclear agreement when a small (if recognized as such) country like Israel is between the first ten holders of nuclear weaponry in the list I googled right now.
To use them on their neighbors might be a problem none the less, cause nuclear destruction and radiation also don't respect borders.
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Fear has two meanings
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 30, 2017 10:58 AM

Israel had never used any nukes , nor did it unleashed it full potentialof army yet.
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