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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: For the Glory of Anarchism!
Thread: For the Glory of Anarchism! This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 12:49 AM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 00:55, 09 Aug 2017.

For the Glory of Anarchism!

This thread is dedicated to the sharing and discussion of anarchist thought and practice, let your hearts sing of the greatest achievement of the human mind and body, let it sing! I am in the process of debating fundamental anarchist beliefs and in doing so formulating my own, therefore I will have much to share in the coming days, weeks and months.

This is an amazing repository:
Anarchist Archives

For those trying to get into it I wholeheartedly recommend Alexander Berkman's ABC of Anarchism, while I do find some very fundamental flaws in his assertions and logic, it might stem from his lack of explanation of key themes, but let that not dishearten you, it is amazing and very light on the eyes and the mind.

Here's a link (it's pretty much identical to my personal copy of it)

Alexander Berkman: The ABC of Anarchism, what is communist anarchism?

And for you brave individuals that want a test of your sanity I recommend Max Stirner's Ego and its Own


-What is anarchy?

It is a state of total liberty.

-What is total liberty?!
It is the lack of external compulsions, or authority.

-How is it to be achieved, through fire and sword right, through the overthrowing of all institutions and persons of authority, right?!
Nonsense upon stilts! Freedom is not something that can be given, but desired and gained through your own action, it neither requires the destruction of the state nor seclusion from its grasp. Freedom, thus anarchy is self-discipline.

Surely you jest?
Not at all, one must derive his ontology from within. Such a man lives within himself and tempers himself against outside coercion, a sociable man (i.e one who ingrains his ontological security in social institutions and routine) lives outside of himself, knows how to live only in the opinion of others; and it is, so to speak, from their judgement alone that he draws the sentiment of his own existence (i.e ontology). Therefore to be free is to be an autonomous unit, once this is achieved the outside world will have no sway over your mind, and then your actions and consequences are finally your own.

What about positive liberty? Simply setting yourself free in that sense will not enable to you to open up opportunities and remove the artificial obstructions!
That is the fate of us anarchists, with enough prudence you might evade the authorities, and with luck you might taste the true calling of your existence, but make no mistake there is no perpetual destiny awaiting us, there might simply be mere moments before our realization of freedom and being extinguished by the powers that be, but such is the fate of free men, of true anarchists. So live for yourself, as yourself for as long as you are permitted.  
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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 09, 2017 05:39 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:05, 09 Aug 2017.

Problem with anarchism is that it (imo) requires smart people to work, while most are less than bright or easily manipulated. Idiots and irresponsible individuals are more than likely to ruin the experience for everyone else.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted August 09, 2017 07:47 AM

Sorry maybe I break your belive but I cant see If someone injure himself. Its kind of satanism. Order is from God. Gods Order is only thing we need in fact,

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted August 09, 2017 08:04 AM

Speaking of which, I have a question for you tsar. What do you believe is better for a society, public welfare or letting individuals take care of themselves? I understand that anarchism won't prevent people from helping those in need but I would consider a focused effort from everyone unlikely.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 10:08 AM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 11:08, 09 Aug 2017.

Baronus said:
Order is from God. Gods Order is only thing we need in fact,


I personally agree, (had you said religion I would not) there is a subsection of anarchy called religious-anarchism, personally I find it the most enlightening mostly on account of Tolstoy (who took Christ's morals understood them as the truth through self-validation and thus made it his truth, which is relative). Although he could be considered a deist rather than Christian, since he 'effectively reduced religion to a morality, and from its cosmology could only keep what he deemed to make rational sense.
Quote:
that there is a God, the origin of all things; that in man dwells a spark from that Divine
Origin, which man can increase or decrease in himself by his way of living; that to increase
this divine spark man must suppress his passions and increase love in himself; and that
the practical means to attain this result is to do to others as you would they should do
to you

Tolstoy was thus an anarchist because the state stood against his morals since it was founded on violence and perpetrated it daily. (We often take state violence as a given, almost all the great authors are very convincing, but for a very very detailed empirical look at it Johan Galtung's 'What is Peace?' is top-notch).

Quote:
What do you believe is better for a society, public welfare or letting individuals take care of themselves? I understand that anarchism won't prevent people from helping those in need but I would consider a focused effort from everyone unlikely.


The key problem with many of even the greatest anarchist thinkers is they have a very westernized idea of freedom. They believe freedom is not only to have external authority abolished, but also to have the potential to do whatever they want however they want. On itself it's fine, but the conjectures drawn from this basis are utopian idealism. By that I mean, yes the ability to do something you desire in your own manner is how it is always meant to be, but for goodness sake it inspires ignorance without further depth! That is to say, indeed do whatever you desire and however you see fit, but the world will reflect back on you, now we have already stated that being an autonomous unit (self-arrogant) we do not retain our value from external things, but when the results of our external ambitions returns something unexpected, undesired then we must rethink our methodology, we must be prudent. That is why I agree that for anarchy to work you need intelligent men, otherwise you will have nothing but pure arrogance and ignorance, a man who will smash his head against the wall because he wants it done his own way, that all others claim is perhaps not efficient or outright insane.

Bakunin states something along these lines:

Quote:
In the matter of boots I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads I colsult that of the architect or engineer. For such or such special knowledge I apply to such or such a savant. But I allow neither the bootmaker nor the architect nor the savant to impose his authority upon me. I accept them freely and with all the respect merited by their intelligence, their character, their knowledge, reserving always my incontestable right of criticism and censure.


This sentiment is along the same lines as Tolstoy to get a sense of his relation to Jesus Christ. Although there is a danger of 'legitimate' authority (i.e when you yourself implore yourself to follow the judgement of someone you deem wiser in a particular field, but these are temporary) that it will turn into blind faith and thus illegitimate authority, you must always check and assert the truth of it (just as Jesus told Tomas to touch his wounds and validate for himself, even Jesus did not hold or promote others to blind faith).  

I revile the idea of freedom of speech because it isn't. What it seeks to do is separate man from the consequences rather than actual freedom (as we have said freedom is authonomy and making yourself your own master - responsibility). It's so alike to Marxist critique of capitalism (much akin to an Ancient Greek critique), that man is psychologically separated from his creation, forms no attachment and merits no responsibility over them, such is the 'freedom of speech' or any supposed freedoms of the state.


I will get around to answering your question though, I am the type of man that will either take his time to explore the countless potentialities of every action, or at times the fool that dives in.
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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 10:14 AM
Edited by artu at 10:14, 09 Aug 2017.

Started reading the Berkman link, all of this feels so nostalgic to me, I feel 19 again.

@Elvin
Not that it necessarily makes it wrong but the first objection to anarchism (or even socialism) is that it's against the selfish or greedy nature of your average man. Naturally, almost all writers in the links have something to say about such a common objection. Links are good, check them out.

Baronus said:
Sorry maybe I break your belive but I cant see If someone injure himself. Its kind of satanism. Order is from God. Gods Order is only thing we need in fact,

If order is from God, why do you need a human state to achieve it? The thing is, if there was a God, his law would be the jungle law, since that is the law of (his) nature.
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 01:57 PM

Btw, tsar, you wont actively try to destroy the state, but when you're done with school, do you plan on paying taxes or not?
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 03:24 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 15:35, 09 Aug 2017.

But of course, 'render unto Ceasar what is his', money and its value while a fundamental part of everyday civilised life is after all the state's, because from whence it derives its value and currency. If the state wishes it back I will oblige. I have no intention of living as an enemy of the state, even if by right it so wishes to name me. I seek no disharmony with my environment, discipline of such sort is what I strive for, to be like water, to mould over my surroundings, take on its shape, but never changing my nature to that of the earth that surrounds me. That is the idealism that I strive for, of course how it will play out in practice will shape me to whatever extent I allow it to.

While I reside within the state's geographical boundary I am obliged for the sake of harmony to moderate my actions accordingly, in other words 'when in Rome do as the Romans', even if you are not. This ideal seems very attractive to my nature and I accept it as my own, now I simply need experience in order to carry out this ideal appropriately and with prudence.

That said if the state wishes my obedience, through something like conscription or forced labour I would desist from its clutches by whatever means I see fit, hopefully when and if such an eventuality arises I will have enough cunning or prudence to overcome the challenge without the need for violence.  
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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 04:06 PM
Edited by artu at 16:09, 09 Aug 2017.

That's all fine but I'm not so sure about which part of this makes you an anarchist exactly. In practicality, you recognize the state by all means, you even finance it. At best, you say that IF the state overstep its boundries, you will then use civil disobedience, which isnt necessarily an anarchist position.
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 04:24 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 16:44, 09 Aug 2017.

That would run the assumption that an anarchist is only someone that manifests himself as thus directly and arrogantly, one who smashes into every avoidable obstacle. A fool like that is found and crushed before he ever has a chance to fully develop, in order to secure my own identity-propa I must learn to mediate my external actions according to my environment.

Anarchism is a perception of reality, and something I structure myself around, but I have no intention of inflicting it prematurely on my environment without being ready for the consequences, that would be imprudent. What it is, is moderating what you let in, what you do not. This is what it means to live within oneself. In essence the root of critical thinking if done correctly is anarchistic in nature. First year of university was spent to purge us of all our present methodologies and practices that we have learned in school/college, in the same manner a man must not only restrict what enters, but also in like manner purge what is already there, Stirner argues to purge all of it and you will naturally be called back to your 'yourself'.

Thought and practice are intrinsically intertwined, at present I am not yet free or self disciplined, but I have latched onto anarchy as my principle lens with which I see the world through.
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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 04:42 PM

tSar-Ivor said:
In essence the root of critical thinking if done correctly is anarchistic in nature.

This is very much true. And one can always go for "taqiya." However, anarchism is also a political stance and the level of disobedience by its followers is not always as minimal as you personally prefer.
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 04:55 PM

Of course, anarchy has all the dangers as well as benefits that go with any ideology, especially those that would seek to liberate. If the state is painted as violent and oppressive (which it is), then it is a perfectly rational reaction for anyone to seek retribution.

Personally however, since I prize myself (not necessarily my material existence) above all, and as an anarchist I am in pursuit of total liberty (not positive liberty per-se mind you), there I have no inclination to exact vengeance on the state, it does not serve my liberty. Some as a matter of their own integrity might think otherwise, or it takes lesser insults to goad them into activity (I don't look down on these people, they're more sensitive that is all).  
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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted August 09, 2017 05:37 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 17:38, 09 Aug 2017.

I was going to write something filled with spite, but I cba.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted August 09, 2017 06:43 PM

About anarchism:

ROMANS, C HAPTER 13
Obedience in Authority.
Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority
except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those
who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have
no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not
bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the
evildoer.
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also
because of conscience.
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting
themselves to this very thing.
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to
whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 07:00 PM
Edited by artu at 19:02, 09 Aug 2017.

Oh, look! The edition of variations on a legend sanctioned by the Roman Emperor tells us to obey the authorities. It must be infallible, divine wisdom beyond any reasonable doubt. Let's go conscript to military and die for them then.
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted August 09, 2017 07:57 PM

With the current monetary system we all live in we get robbed blind until we got nothing left. I don't see why joining a roman army as a conscript would be any problem at all for you Artu.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 09, 2017 08:11 PM
Edited by artu at 20:12, 09 Aug 2017.

How are those two relevant in anyway and what makes you think I'm an advocate of the current monetary system?

Not being a nationalist doesnt turn you in favor of every neo-liberal economy policy.
Good watch.
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An unknown king, and mature pussy becomes known - Ghost

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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Thunderlord of Nighon
posted August 09, 2017 08:11 PM

Baronus said:
About anarchism:

ROMANS, C HAPTER 13
Obedience in Authority.
Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority
except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those
who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have
no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not
bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the
evildoer.
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also
because of conscience.
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting
themselves to this very thing.
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to
whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.




Christ teaches us that it is preferable to turn the other cheek rather than strike your fellow out of retribution, to render unto god what is his due, your obedience, yourself, and unto Ceasar what is only his due. There is no other authority than that of man and his maker, why should I render unto the arbitrary laws of men when the divine teaches me otherwise and beckons me home, while the earthly powers beckon me only to ill?!

The downfall and perversion of Christianity was certainly when Constantine was baptised, tied anarchy with the state, when he placed earthly powers above god, that would haunt christendom from then on, people squabbling over whether to serve the pontificate or the Kings, neither you fools, render yourselves only to god!


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There is only one god - Allah, and Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and Moses were his messengers.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted August 09, 2017 08:45 PM

artu said:
How are those two relevant in anyway and what makes you think I'm an advocate of the current monetary system?

Not being a nationalist doesnt turn you in favor of every neo-liberal economy policy.
Good watch.

Because you will end up robbed no matter which system you go by and no matter if you are an advocate or not of either one. It's not even about nationalism or neo-liberal economy policy - they are both just smoke and mirrors to keep you deluded, something I must say they have succeeded with minding that video you linked Artu.
Now I shall get back to the H3 Tower thread! Good luck with the discussion!

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 09, 2017 08:55 PM

artu said:
Oh, look! The edition of variations on a legend sanctioned by the Roman Emperor tells us to obey the authorities. It must be infallible, divine wisdom beyond any reasonable doubt. Let's go conscript to military and die for them then.


Yeah. This.

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