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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: NoobX et caetera
Thread: NoobX et caetera This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 28, 2017 10:41 PM

What I claim is, it is hypothetically possible in the future to falsify or verify further what String theory suggests, it all depends on how advanced science becomes in the future, there is no guarantee but String Theory is already, in your words "based on quantities and processes we know exists, and it aims to describe reality as we see it."

On the other hand, even though there are many things we have not yet figured out about consciesness, we already did figure out it is a biochemical process, we already did figure out it evolved gradually and its more primitive versions still exist around, so a new discovery about consciousness that would indicate it can exist without such biochemical processs would be completely contradictory to all we know as of now. It wouldn't be like, say, discovering a new planet, it would be like discovering planets are actually rectangular entities. We would be wrong about everything. We already know consciesness is bio-chemical, we already know why people wish to assume an after-life no matter how implausible the idea is objectively, the idea is not something beyond the horizon, it is ancient. So it is not much different than suggesting that maybe all things animated, fire, rivers, wind have a soul tooo, which was also a way of explaining things before people knew any better. String theory and after-life are not equally plausible, not because of the complexity of the math but because of what they base their assumptions on. Today, one is a psychological tendency, it is about the fear of death, the other is about speculating on probable physical laws.
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NoobX
NoobX


Promising
Legendary Hero
~Knowledge is power~
posted August 28, 2017 10:46 PM

... What have I done
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 29, 2017 12:24 AM

I don't disagree with you (though some of your claims of things we know I am not certain really are things we know, but I don't think that is relevant), but I think there is plenty to discuss even so.

Like say the biochemical process that give rise to your consciousness in specific, if they were mimicked perfectly in some laboratory, would you exist at two places at once (even though you'd have no sense organs in this laboratory hence you probably wouldn't experience anything) and would you thereby live on as long as at least one of these processes continues?

Similarly, if we take a bunch of particles, such as the entire universe, and let time run for long enough, how long until the processes that gives rise to consciousness would repeat randomly?

I mean it's definitely not some kind of after life in the sense that has anything to do with cultures of present and past, but technically if any giving person exist at more than one time, no matter how brief, we could call it an after life.

That said, I wonder if there would also be "before lives" too then. I.e. being alive before being born/conceived.

Btw. do you know what string theory suggests apart from there being 11 dimensions and everything being build up by strings? Because as far as I know, it hasn't yet been possible to use the theory to predict observable events, something strong theories usually prevails in.
Not that I find it very relevant for the discussion either, just curious.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 29, 2017 01:04 AM

I don't think transferring one's consciousness into some artificial platform would count as the same, that's not an after-life, that's continuing to preserve your consciousness under a different formation. Not to mention, it would be an identical copy (ideally, you'd have to copy the hormonal effects, hunger, memory, lingual skills, reflexes and so on for a perfect match) but not yourself. What I mean is, it wouldn't be like you go to sleep and wake up as a machine, the original you would still end and then somewhere there'd be a replica of you, that replica may have the cognitive illusion of being you, having your memoriis etc but the self-awareness wouldnt be a continuity. Keep in mind that, all they produced so far is intelligence not consciousness, AIs are not self-aware, where as animals with very low intelligence can be self-aware.

It's been quite sometime since I read about string theory. I remember that the stings (if they exist) are so small that their size to an atom is like the size of a tree to earth, they act as particles sometimes but also cause gravitational force, so it's a theory that tries to unify the existing gaps. I vaguely remember something about too many dimensions but I can't tie that to string theory from what I remember. What I know is, it's one of the attempts at the "theory of everything", the holy grail of physicists and it works on paper but cant be proven as of now.
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nimostar
nimostar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 29, 2017 01:57 AM

Afterlife is just advanced technology rebuilding am alike consciusness at a much later time.
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nimostar
nimostar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 29, 2017 02:01 AM

Also about the "original", there is no physical metric to account for "originality"; for all its worth the you that wakes up is not the sale that goes to sleep: So you die every nap, ir perhaps every instant, from the perspective of change am continuity.
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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted August 29, 2017 07:30 AM

Something nerve cell! I do not remember what the TV has been talking about. It's just such a humorous cell that makes good feelings and minds. When a man has died, but the cells have not yet died dead. Yes the cell destroys, but the smaller cell still lives and dies. Another smaller cell will survive for a long time until all cells die eventually. And a man does not go back to tell about sleep.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 29, 2017 10:44 AM

nimostar said:
Also about the "original", there is no physical metric to account for "originality"; for all its worth the you that wakes up is not the sale that goes to sleep: So you die every nap, ir perhaps every instant, from the perspective of change am continuity.

I dont mean original like in a painting, when I wake up, I experience the continuity of myself ffrom yesterday as a single entity, that wouldnt be the case if they "upload" me to a digital platform though, because it is not the feeling of self-awareness that they are uploading.
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 29, 2017 12:31 PM

Perhaps any given specific consciousness cannot exist outside the body, I don't know and I am not going to question it or what I feel may be arbitrary limits, but I feel nimostar brings up a good point in this regard.

However the suspicion does make me wonder, if the consciousness cannot exist outside the body, is it then a representative for a soul? And if it is not, why bring consciousness into the discussion in the first place then?

Also I think there is a risk of a circular argument even if consciousness is equivalent to the soul which goes like this:
There is no afterlife, because the soul is your consciousness and your consciousness cannot exist without your body.
Which in my opinion is equivalent to:
There is no afterlife, because the soul cannot exist without your body.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 29, 2017 12:46 PM
Edited by artu at 12:48, 29 Aug 2017.

Soul is a misconception for consciousness. Consciousness can be observed, and people can mistake their consciousness that is indeed dependent on the body, for a soul that is independent of it.

The relevant part here is, at least as of now, we can not artificially produce consciousness, we can only produce intelligence. You can produce a chessplayer AI who wins against humans, you cant produce one which wants to win or thinks "I am myself and playing chess at the moment." If it's coded, it can state that but it wont feel it. So even if you upload my chess skills to a digital platform, the memory of my self-awareness playing the game in the summer of 2004 wont be transferred as a personal memory. It is also certain that both cognitive skills and conscious memories are a neurological process of my brain and unless you find an artificial technology to transfer them, they will be lost once the brain is decomposed. A personality can not exist as a metaphysical entity.
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted August 29, 2017 01:59 PM

I don't believe soul in our body. The Bible is stronger than your mind/language. I call them heart, and spirit is a brain by easy. You got the answer, what pro never give to you easy I found them false before realized researcher. Now soul and spirit is a history. A nice the Bible talked about soul in blood, and spirit is life power. When we are avatar without blood. Soul isn't exist, and life power be harddisk, and they press offline. I call them amen! ..or you get a CPU aka heart in the 2050

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 31, 2017 12:29 AM

Quote:
I dont mean original like in a painting, when I wake up, I experietnce the continuity of myself ffrom yesterday as a single entity, that wouldnt be the case if they "upload" me to a digital platform though, because it is not the feeling of self-awareness that they are uploading.


You visionj doesn't make sense though. You don't experience "continuity" because your consciousness drift off to other states (such as dreamsless deep sleep) which you cannot recollect. You may only remember going to sleep and sometimes not even that (for example in drunkness). You don't experience "continuity" but discontinuity. You have recollection of the past trough memory.

These memories could very well by implanted, false, or "uploaded" in the case of a cybernetic or techno-organic brain.

You will still believe that are you, even if that were not the case. Theoretically it may not be the case right now.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 31, 2017 01:00 AM
Edited by artu at 09:36, 31 Aug 2017.

You are talking about a situation in which you are filled in with memories of a fake past (or real one in another body). What I'm talking about is, you will not be able to transfer the essence of your consciousness which constitutes your self-awareness, that is the part why you have a sense of continuity to begin with, whether it is real or not. Otherwise, an AI is just a set of algorithms, something that replies to input but is not a self. It's a mechanism, not much different than the ones working with cogs and springs, only much more sophisticated. There is not a part in such a mechanism that can be called an essence to the sense of being oneself. A clock can not spend time, without a sense of being oneself, neither can an AI, it can calculate the passing time but it can not feel it passing through.
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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