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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Pay to Win games: a model that thrives off of low impulse control
Thread: Pay to Win games: a model that thrives off of low impulse control This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 11, 2017 09:20 AM

Ori <3 What a wonderful game.

@ nimostar

It makes sense that those who pay have it easier. Problem is when this is done in a shameless manner that there is not even a semblance of contest. Imo paying should give you more opportunities and faster progress but not unique tools or any guaranteed edge. I liked how duel of champions did it, people could buy more packs but good cards were not guaranteed. People could also use seals that you won ingame but that required getting achievements or playing the campaign so you had to invest time in them. That changed when the ways to earn seals were greatly reduced and money was the main way to get them.

lol @ cq guy

He needs help alright.
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Neraus
Neraus


Supreme Hero
Emperor of the Bromans
posted September 11, 2017 09:41 AM

@Stevie

Funnily enough, I always get a legendary on a multi-summon, the problem is mustering the necessary gems though.

Actually, last time I got two legendaries in a single multi-summon.

And I thought I was unlucky because I couldn't find 4-dots...
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 10:18 AM
Edited by Galaad at 10:59, 11 Sep 2017.

Elvin said:
I liked how duel of champions did it, people could buy more packs but good cards were not guaranteed. People could also use seals that you won ingame but that required getting achievements or playing the campaign so you had to invest time in them.


And that is how CQ does it too, spending money does not guarantee you anything and even if you get the best creatures you still need to spend time to upgrade them. You also need to get out questing for the smaller creatures that are just as important (if not more) and that you can't buy. Last but not least, you also need to figure out how to use efficiently the creatures you're given by creating good team synergies and so on.

Elvin said:
lol @ cq guy

He needs help alright.


Lol x2

Multi-summons are obviously their major source of income, the drop rate for Legendaries is like 5%? I got more Legendaries from simply playing the game than from summonings. The game is actually generous enough to let you play without paying, and is tactically deep enough to let you perform well even if you lack Legendaries (and you WILL get them after some time of playing, and I remember Stevie hitting the jackpot at some point btw). What I suspect is, without multi-summons, the game would probably go bankrupt as too few people would pay anything (why would they, they can perform just fine without spending cash).

RELYING on RNG is just retarded, whenever you've been saving diamonds for months to mass-summon as a free player or if you're feeding them your debit card, the outcome is no different. Whenever I do a multi-summon, I know there is a good chance I won't get what I want, but I do with what I get, and it works out fine. Or better yet, I mostly use diamonds to grind faster, which is more reliable (and healthier).
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lordgraa
lordgraa


Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
HC SUPPORTER
posted September 11, 2017 10:45 AM

Stevie said:
I'll just drop this here:


Is this your complaint, Stevie? I remember that you were crazy unlucky back in the old days and they somehow "refund" your bad luck. But I didn`t know it was so serious

BTW the RNG God is alsmost the same snow in all those games. Try Hearthstone - you will laugh and cry at the same time
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 11, 2017 11:07 AM

I remember my early days in Diablo 2 making 30 runs/hour to get a potential shako and never succeed. It took me 1 week to realize I waste my life, so I got a bot, make it run all night then find 10 shakos while savor my morning coffee. Then use all this stuff to enhance gameplay, brag about my virtual stuff and slaughter noobs at the portal.

For repetitive tasks use appropriate tools -there are always to be found, you're a fool (or you'll become one) if you do otherwise.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted September 11, 2017 01:47 PM
Edited by Stevie at 14:02, 11 Sep 2017.

lordgraa said:
Stevie said:
I'll just drop this here:


Is this your complaint, Stevie? I remember that you were crazy unlucky back in the old days and they somehow "refund" your bad luck. But I didn`t know it was so serious

BTW the RNG God is alsmost the same snow in all those games. Try Hearthstone - you will laugh and cry at the same time


Yes, that was my complaint, which even now I believe was justified. The "refund" you mention was a couple of diamonds for another multi-summon, again unlucky (although by that time I had already summoned 2 Occultists by grinding achievements like a madman before the event ended). The funny part is that even after I bought 5 VIP levels I still felt like the return was incredibly bad. The only creature that I got from those worth mentioning is a 4 dot Black Dragon which eventually got replaced by better creatures that I got through the power of grinding.

To me, Creature Quest was a good game overall, not a great game though. I experienced many moments that would put a casual gamer off in seconds (that might be the reason for the low population). The get lucky casino-type of creature summons is probably the worst part of the game. It builds too much expectation for too much effort and too little return. Later in the game, you realize that legendary creatures are not even that powerful, the focus shifts towards 4 dot small and medium creatures which are the true rarities. It's a grind fiesta from then on for the better dungeon, which gets smashed anyway by the perfect team composition that high tier players have.

But at the end of the day, the game is after all Pay 2 Win. I couldn't in good conscience argue otherwise when every single gold ladder has almost always been dominated by big spenders, that's the ultimate argument. Everything else is just lip service.

For the last part, I wouldn't recommend HS to someone looking for a good card game. Right now HS is a snowfest. I play TESL instead to scratch that itch. Never felt better.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 02:17 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:29, 11 Sep 2017.

Stevie said:
But at the end of the day, the game is after all Pay 2 Win.


Well, for the PvP part, only rank #1 is truly p2w. Usually top #2 ranks are by whales and rank #3 (which is basically same reward) is often achieved by a f2p (or low VIP) who spent 6 hours grinding dungeons at the end of the challenge (and sniping the whales). Not denying there is a few p2w elements in PvP but you know yourself very well that if you really want to get the 'whale rewards' (top 3) you can given you're dedicated enough, among others I saw you doing it too.

But that's for the hardcore players, not your average player, who can still get his 3 dots Legendary (viable till this day, I don't use a single 4d Leg) in dungeons as the creature is granted to top 100 (well now top 50 but brackets were halved, and you also get a greater essence if you rank #50 now, on top of the creature).

I don't consider to be P2W a game that allows me to PvE no matter what, and that still grants great rewards to the average player in PvP. The balance of this game is more in favor of free players than whales, time over money, which seems to be rare in this business.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Goes To Space
posted September 11, 2017 02:43 PM

for sure I try to avoid getting very engaged in these freemium microtransaction games because they will devour my life, respect to JVC and the team for making a great game but if you have an addictive personality it could certainly go pear shaped lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 03:10 PM
Edited by Galaad at 15:17, 11 Sep 2017.

verriker said:
they will devour my life lol


Tbh, back in the days h3 has devoured my life just as much.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted September 11, 2017 03:24 PM

It's not just one or two whales that settle just right in rank 1-3, there are multiple P2Win per group that go all out on the last day of the week, many of them ending in top 10 or 25. The only way to exceed their sheer wallet power is to abuse the game's various loopholes. And even so, getting top 3 back in the day felt like miraculous sometimes, which in hindsight actually feels like snow, because that only meant the game was Pay 2 Win and Cheat 2 Win. There's no advantage for the free player, all the advantage lies with the big spenders. Which only makes sense, you're paying for an advantage, that's the #1 rule of freemiums.

That's all from my top 3 experience, but if you say it's different, then let me ask you: as the most dedicated CQ player on this forum, how many times have you been in the top 3? I'm really curious.
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted September 11, 2017 03:24 PM

but H3 wasn't pay to win.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 11, 2017 03:27 PM
Edited by artu at 15:36, 11 Sep 2017.

That's different. You don't keep paying anything in H3 and even if you are a f2p, it is still different because even on your most obsesssed periods, there can still be days or even weeks when you give a break. These new games however, you have to visit at least 3 times a day for refills and arena ranking or you'll be getting so little out of it, it becomes impossible to compete and get decent rewards.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 03:38 PM

Stevie said:
There's no advantage for the free player, all the advantage lies with the big spenders.


I know some whales who would beg to differ.

Stevie said:
how many times have you been in the top 3? I'm really curious.


Well it's not like I got the time to try and get into the top 3 every challenge, I got IRL too you know.
But whenever I got the time and the will, it's hard yes but I can manage it.

Anyway, a p2w game does not allow to play for free the way CQ does, look at Geny for example, he plays extremely casually, sure he progresses slower, but he doesn't end up writing emails to support telling them he's on the verge on a mental breakdown either.
You can actually entirely skip multi-summons and even PvP, and there is already hundreds of fun in PvE, how many freemiums allow that?

artu said:
That's different. You don't keep paying anything in H3 and even if you are a p2p, it is still different because even on your most obsesssed periods, there can still be days or even weeks where you give a break. These new games however, you have to visit at least 3 times a day for refills and arena ranking or you'll be getting so little out of it, it becomes impossible to compete and get decent rewards.


I know, OTOH daily rewards in CQ are just once a day and stay in your in-game mailbox for a week. Sometimes I can't play the game as much because of RL and it doesn't affect my progression that much. At times there is check-in events that requires to log in daily but you can just log in, reap it and log off, takes 20 seconds, you always have your phone with you anyway, can do it while on the bathroom.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted September 11, 2017 04:46 PM

Galaad said:
Stevie said:
There's no advantage for the free player, all the advantage lies with the big spenders.


I know some whales who would beg to differ.


Do you need someone's opinion to validate anything? It stands to reason that people pay money for an advantage.

Galaad said:
Stevie said:
how many times have you been in the top 3? I'm really curious.


Well it's not like I got the time to try and get into the top 3 every challenge, I got IRL too you know.
But whenever I got the time and the will, it's hard yes but I can manage it.

Anyway, a p2w game does not allow to play for free the way CQ does, look at Geny for example, he plays extremely casually, sure he progresses slower, but he doesn't end up writing emails to support telling them he's on the verge on a mental breakdown either.
You can actually entirely skip multi-summons and even PvP, and there is already hundreds of fun in PvE, how many freemiums allow that?


You've never been to top 3, have you?

A lot of freemiums allow that, a lot. There's nothing special about CQ. The game has currency-walls, ad viewing and pay 2 play features. The only difference is that they aren't pushed on you with intrusive advertisement, but they are still there.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted September 11, 2017 05:08 PM

Not that it matters, but you can get CQ hacked for you in a jiffy if you're willing to surrender some personal details for a survey. Usually a 'send a premium sms to unlock garbage' type. Still way cheaper than buying stuff ingame.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 05:27 PM

@Stevie:
- The paying advantage is temporary only, you should know since you reached VIP 5.
- Name me one pay to play feature in CQ, there is none. Some VIPs get an exclusive creature and that's it.

The_Polyglot said:
Not that it matters, but you can get CQ hacked for you in a jiffy if you're willing to surrender some personal details for a survey. Usually a 'send a premium sms to unlock garbage' type. Still way cheaper than buying stuff ingame.


Are you sure these aren't scams? IMO best way to play is like Artu: spend a few bucks once in a while (what's the harm giving a bit of support to a game you like a lot and play daily for a few temporary bonuses) and keep dedicated.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted September 11, 2017 05:33 PM

Not 100% sure, no, but there's a level of positive feedback that makes me think they do work. Plus there's video proof on youtube.
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Now I only want you gone...
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted September 11, 2017 05:39 PM

- an advantage is an advantage, doesn't matter if it's temporary or permanent. You get one multi summon more than regular with money, you paid for another turn of the wheel. Pure casino style.

- everything that you can buy with in-game currency and real money. Those are pay 2 play features. A simple energy or CP refill is enough, not even talking about exclusivities, increased xp gains, less duration and whatever else.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 11, 2017 05:45 PM

Still doesn't requires you to pay to play. If you want to get advantages or lump in 2000 $ a week to get all the creatures in double it's your call, but this does not mean free players can't play and enjoy the game at their pace. All players have access to the same content (aside that one VIP creature but that really doesn't change anything) and rewards that make you progress are accessible to all.

Only difference is spenders get there faster, but true heroes grow slower.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted September 12, 2017 03:37 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 09:25, 12 Sep 2017.

Galaad said:
verriker said:
they will devour my life lol


Tbh, back in the days h3 has devoured my life just as much.


I dunno. I've had days in the past where I woke up, played HoMM, played more HoMM, and at night eventually went to bed, with BLTs/Dr Pepper/expelling waste in between, but I always slept at night. I never set my alarm 2-4 hours before I would normally wake up so I could participate in all three boss/battle events and maximize my rewards, and then nap at awkward hours sporadically before doing it all over again.

It's that competitive part of me that couldn't stand letting those rewards slip by me. It is psychological warfare on the client. You can't work your way through the game at your own leisure because everything operates on a timer. I mean you can if you never really get immersed in it, but a lot of people do get immersed in games and so they see letting events pass them by as though they were making a strategic mistake.

But if you pick up a good quality RPG or campaign game, you work your way through it like a book, slip into the universe, and you get done when you get done. Yeah, it is possible to have days where you go off the grid as though you were living in a nuclear fallout shelter / vampire cave, and play the game all day, but the game isnt purposely engineered for that in the way cigarettes are laced with nicotine to purposely make people want/need them all the time.
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