Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: MMH5.5: Lore Thread
Thread: MMH5.5: Lore Thread This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 19, 2017 07:16 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 13:25, 20 Sep 2017.

MMH5.5: Lore Thread

This thread will explain the Lore of MMH5.5, which is in current version (RC9b) close to fully updated to MMH6/7 Lore. While there are inconsistencies between all Ashan Games, HOMM5 can generally be considered most inconsistent and often plain ‘wrong’. This is because Ashan Lore was very underdeveloped in HOMM5, since initially the game was going to take place in the old universe and quickly switched during development. This article seeks to explain why TOE has wrongly assigned spell schools and why Destructive and Summoning Magic should actually have been called Chaos & Order Magic. It will also explain why shatter skills are lore wise appropriately assigned in H55 Skill system and why (in the next release of H55) the summoning of elementals will make more sense. It will also explain why Academy is supposed to have access to necromancy and why the RMG places Academy Prisons with demons in them and Shantiri Discs.

This is going to be an ‘in a nutshell’ explanation, for the full story you can get lost on the wikia or h7 websites



Ashan was created by Asha, the dragon god of Order, worshipped mostly by Mages and Necromancers (twisted interpretation). Asha is neutral towards Life & Death and all elements, so is not against any race or necromancy, but Asha opposes her twin brother Urgash, the dragon god of Chaos.

Asha and Urgash are higher ranked ‘primordial dragons’, Asha has 6 ‘lesser’ dragon god children:

Elrath, Dragon god of Light, worshipped mostly by humans.
Malassa, Dragon god of Darkness, worshipped mostly by Dark Elves.
Sylanna, Dragon god of Earth, animal and plant life, worshipped mostly by Elves.
Ylath, Dragon god of Air, also worshipped mostly by humans.
Arkath, Dragon God of Fire, worshipped mostly by Dwarves.
Shalassa, Dragon God of Water, worshipped mostly by Nagas (sanctuary creatures).



Relevant Historical Events

Ashan’s Timeline has 3 Ages, the Mythic Age, the Ancient Age and the Historical Age. All H5-7 Stories take place in the Historical Age. In the Mythic Age Asha fought with Urgash, the dragon god of Chaos and won saving her world from destruction. Urgash is the creator of Demons and is worshipped by Haven Heretics. In the Ancient Age all races were united under Asha’s rule in the Shantiri Empire. The Shantiri Empire was destroyed by a war between the Angels and Faceless. The Faceless do not appear in H5, but they can be considered ‘dark angels’ who later helped converting a part of the elven race to Dark Elves worshipping Malassa (currently the Dungeon faction, which is therefore supposed to have Dark magic as primary school).

In the beginning of the Historical Age, the mages helped fighting a demon invasion. Asha elevated one mage Sar-Elam to a god for sacrificing himself to save Ashan from demons. He is called the ‘Seventh Dragon’. The mages used evil experiments to create Orcs from Demonblood to help fight the demons, but after the war they enslaved them as a cruel reward.

Sar-Elam and the mages prisoned the demons with magic (that’s why the RMG places these demon vaults with Academy appearance). Mages have a long history with Necromancy and is source of conflict between them, Asha is neutral towards Death and Necromancers don’t consider death a bad thing, instead they consider it peaceful. Therefore Necromancy can rarely be learned by some living magic classes. In the next version some modifications will be made to the chilling bones and dark emissary perks to make necromancy more useful for living heroes.

Consequences for Skill System

In H6 the 4 elements are split up in separate schools, but in H5.5 they remain together and reflect the all-encompassing power of the primordial dragons. Summoning magic is actually Order Magic or Prime Magic, it is the supreme magic school and includes all elements and types of magic (damage, buff, nerf etc). Asha doesn’t seek destruction but ‘Elemental Balance’, Order magic serves to preserve her creation and ‘Banish’ the demons to the underground. Note the perk references. In gameplay summoning is not necessarily the best school, because it is hard to handle and requires lots of Spell power.

Destructive Magic is actually Chaos magic and opposes Order magic. Ultimately it is used for the destruction of the world (Armageddon). The best mages can control it and use it for their own purposes. Light and Dark oppose each other, similar as Chaos and Order. Light magic+shatter dark increase devotion to Elrath (Paladin) Destructive+shatter summoning increases devotion to Urgash (Heretic). As a consequence of all this the skill combos light+dark or destructive+summoning are extremely rare and conflicting and mostly confined to Academy mages, who value knowledge above all and are not interested in religious purity. At this point I have not really decided if Summoning & Destructive should actually be renamed Chaos and Order in game. It depends on how people feel about that and if the practical purpose of keeping them the same overrules strict enforcement of Lore.

Orcs don’t have any awareness of Dragon god alignments. They worship the elements Earth and Air, but refer to them as Mother and Father.  The Witch class is an addition unique to H5.5 and are considered ‘dark shamans’ who have decided to embrace the demonic genetics of Orcs and use Urgash power to destroy their enemies.

The following Table shows correct alignment of every faction (notice that ingame skillwheel shows correct dragon symbol for each faction).





(This table is just a depiction of H6/7 Lore, it does not imply any changes to H55 skill system and mage guilds!)

Summoning of Elementals

H7 introduces 4 new resources, but in H5.5 only one will be relevant (Quote from H7 website):

‘Dragonblood crystal is the very blood of the Dragons Gods, that was spilled over Ashan during the Wars of Creation. Its power is versatile and unrivalled. It is used in many magical buildings and allows the breeding of magical creatures.’

As of RC9c Dragonblood crystals will be used by the mage guilds to summon elementals and will be rewarded to the player by dragon gods in return for corrupting the magic school they oppose. For example if the hero takes the ‘Corrupt Light’ perk, Malassa will reward him with dragonblood crystals. Hero will rewarded by Urgash for corrupting Summoning (Order). The following images will show how lore-based system will clean up the UI and makes more sense:








____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 19, 2017 08:16 PM

Totally hyped about this
____________
Find an opponent at HoMM55 Tavern! | NCF Utility Alpha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 19, 2017 10:08 PM

The chart made it more confusing.
Haven had Light+Dark bias in their guild and love either of those more than Order. But apparently they love Light+Order and hate Dark now?
Sylvan bias is Order+Light, but rangers and druids sure do love some Destruction.
Necropolis are order, but none of the classes can get Light, while infernal sorcerers, who like Chaos+Destruction and despise Light, are alright learning Light magic. On top of that necromancers, the class, can learn destruction even though they are Order?
Dungeon hate Light, but warlocks, the signature faction class, are okay  with it?

Do you plan to change the class skills just to fit barely functional Ashan lore? Does it mean ballista rangers are on the chopping block because lore said so?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2017 10:30 PM

Quote:
At this point I have not really decided if Summoning & Destructive should actually be renamed Chaos and Order in game.

In Russian translation there is Chaos magic instead of Destructive magic.
What about Order, it's interesting idea for creating popular vote.
In WGE I try renaming "Destructive Magic + Creative Magic" but
it did not take root, and I have cancelled it. Destructive/Creative are both long and uncomfortable terms, but Chaos/Order are short.

What about humans in Heroes 6-7, mono-Light humans were always annoying, because it's lusciously fairy, non-realistic nature of humanity. But Light + Dark for humans like in Heroes 5, this is very interesting, natural dual philosophy.

Destruction + Summoning are both synergistic magic school, like Light + Dark. I do not see much point in dividing them in different directions.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 19, 2017 10:35 PM

Quote:
The chart made it more confusing. Haven had Light+Dark bias in their guild and love either of those more than Order. But apparently they love Light+Order and hate Dark now?


No Haven never liked Dark, they worshipped Order in the ancient Ages. They have dark in the Guild because of the Heretics & Renegades (see H5 campaign) who turned over to Urgash.

Quote:
Sylvan bias is Order+Light, but rangers and druids sure do love some Destruction. Necropolis are order, but none of the classes can get Light, while infernal sorcerers, who like Chaos+Destruction and despise Light, are alright learning Light magic. On top of that necromancers, the class, can learn destruction even though they are Order? Dungeon hate Light, but warlocks, the signature faction class, are okay  with it?


First of all, if I would enforce the same pattern of 4 schools & shatters on each class the game would get very boring. If you observe the skill system closely you will see the lore alignments are dominant  across the 3 classes, but heroes of all factions have the choice to be a bit 'heretical'. This especially applies to magic classes who are supposed to be more focused on 'science' than 'religion'.

P.S. factions don't have 'signature classes', also Light is not more connected to Order than Dark.

Quote:
Do you plan to change the class skills just to fit barely functional Ashan lore? Does it mean ballista rangers are on the chopping block because lore said so?


Note the Rangers actually get a morale penalty for going destructive I already took this into account back then. So far there are barely going to be any changes to the skillsystem (only some skillboost balancing and what you see here).
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 19, 2017 10:49 PM

Quote:
What about humans in Heroes 6-7, mono-Light humans were always annoying, because it's lusciously fairy, non-realistic nature of humanity. But Light + Dark for humans like in Heroes 5, this is very interesting, natural dual philosophy.


To avoid any confusion, all mage guilds alignments stay as they are in RC8b

Quote:
Destruction + Summoning are both synergistic magic school, like Light + Dark. I do not see much point in dividing them in different directions.


Asha & Urgash are twins and both include all elements, the direction is exactly what makes them different. Asha's goal is creation, Urgash goal is Destruction.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2017 11:31 PM

Defining a dragon god alignment as a faction-based development system is a little bit awkward.

Perhaps it would be better to define dragon god alignment as a class-based development system.
That could explain very hard difference between the classes.

I mean, so far homm lore postulated on many occasions that dragon gods aren’t stupid, in fact, just the opposite, “they have a wicked sense of humor” and similar statements implies that dragon-gods are very intelligent and likes to punish hard inconsistencies.
Defining dragon god alignment as a faction-based system while the faction classes themselves are extremely heterogeneous (in respect to magic schools), somehow makes dragon gods not involved as much as the so-far-implied involvement suggests they are involved in overall events.

Therefore, faction-based alignment system implies that dragon gods are either too high in the skies to give a damn (so, why should they care about combos), or that someone they trust acts as a middle-man so they don’t have to be involved any more (that makes them like they become fat and stupid feudalists).

To define dragon god alignment system as a class-based system would have much more meaning and relational weight; that could not only define possible line of conflicts between the need-of-the-faction (which is heterogeneous, because faction needs victory) and need-of-the-dragon-god (which is homogenous, because dragon needs devotion), but could also define possible reasons for many civil wars.
And not to mention that combos are much easily explain that way as a mean to please dragon god to cooperation in spite of fact that faction has classes that are not devoted.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 19, 2017 11:36 PM

obviously just a mere punter's two cents mate but I don't know if it's worth your valuable time to be too bothered about omnishambolic latter day continuity invented by Ubisoft to be honest,
not because I dislike the erwin universe but because it's just generally not necessary to retcon or reconceptualise an original work to wrap around later works which contained nonsense contradictory information, the original is what it is in a vacuum and isn't wrong because some unrelated Ubisoft person after the fact says it is, if you have a philosophy of correcting bad design this is kinda correcting a flaw that doesn't exist if you see what I mean lol
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2017 11:48 PM

verriker said:
obviously just a mere punter's two cents mate but I don't know if it's worth your valuable time to be too bothered about omnishambolic latter day continuity invented by Ubisoft to be honest,
not because I dislike the erwin universe but because it's just generally not necessary to retcon or reconceptualise an original work to wrap around later works which contained nonsense contradictory information, the original is what it is in a vacuum and isn't wrong because some unrelated Ubisoft person after the fact says it is, if you have a philosophy of correcting bad design this is kinda correcting a flaw that doesn't exist if you see what I mean lol

+1
Very good saying.
Common logics of original game world is more valuable than official latest lore (if you do this game for fans of Heroes 5, not for fans of Heroes 6 or 7).
For example, Dark Paladin is very interesting and correct with native magic guild but Summoning Paladin... hmm, it's strange.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2017 11:50 PM


Described logic of interaction does not serve any images.
Described logic explores values of possible consistencies.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 12:15 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 00:35, 20 Sep 2017.

Quote:
obviously just a mere punter's two cents mate but I don't know if it's worth your valuable time to be too bothered about omnishambolic latter day continuity invented by Ubisoft to be honest,
not because I dislike the erwin universe but because it's just generally not necessary to retcon or reconceptualise an original work to wrap around later works which contained nonsense contradictory information, the original is what it is in a vacuum and isn't wrong because some unrelated Ubisoft person after the fact says it is, if you have a philosophy of correcting bad design this is kinda correcting a flaw that doesn't exist if you see what I mean lol


I agree in theory, but H5 has the poorest developed Lore of any Heroes game, so H6 is much better option. The only alternative would be to rewrite it myself, but that is really not my thing and I doubt anyone would appreciate the result.

EDIT

Quote:
For example, Dark Paladin is very interesting and correct with native magic guild but Summoning Paladin... hmm, it's strange.


But what if it is a 'Light Paladin"?

EDIT2

Also important to note that H6/7 Lore extends game with might&magic classes and more artifacts, H55 requires those things to extend the game.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2017 12:41 AM
Edited by Nargott at 00:45, 20 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
But what if it is a 'Light Paladin"?

Only Light Paladins without any variations?
Oh, I forget that your Paladin have "Light" as class skill.
But he may take "Defense" as class skill ("Light" to Warden).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 12:44 AM

Quote:
Only Light Paladins without any variations?


That's what I'm trying to tell you, a Light Paladin cannot have Dark, something cannot be Light and Dark at the same time, you have to arrive at another spellschool for the variation.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2017 12:47 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:00, 20 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
something cannot be Light and Dark at the same time

This is how you see a situation, but not how human heroes looks at Heroes 5.
Light + Dark can be at the same time, have the same nature and playing very well together, also have support of Twilight.
Light and Dark are sides of the one coin, and determines each other. This is how I see a philosophy of the humans in Heroes 5, and like it very much (Light only is boring, Light + Summoning is strange for a guild).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 12:58 AM

Even in H5 Lore paladins were already holy defenders of Elrath's church, so this doesn't make any sense to me (even without H6). It is also not needed since there are other classes for the combo.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 20, 2017 01:00 AM

magnomagus said:
I agree in theory, but H5 has the poorest developed Lore of any Heroes game, so H6 is much better option. The only alternative would be to rewrite it myself, but that is really not my thing and I doubt anyone would appreciate the result.


I guess it depends on your goals in terms of using the lore (for instance if you are just using it as a means to develop a logical system or if you need it to be a specific way so you can write texts and stories based on it), but if it's a more fluid thing then one could always look to previous systems in Might and Magic for a basis to build on,
for instance the Light/Dark, Fire/Water/Earth/Air, Mind/Body/Spirit one from the RPG games is even more recognisable and expansive than erwin's one and to be honest probably makes more sense for the practicalities of a Heroes game (I just mean in terms of things like the way erwin oddly positioned Necropolis against Inferno by assigning them to Order and Chaos, or Academy and Stronghold having no properties, there are so many illogicalities there like that IMO because they created that lore for a marketing brand, not for a specific game concept) lol

personally though if I had three wishes from the magic genie lamp, I would basically decouple the Ashan lore and all other lore from the basic game design/ruleset as much as possible and just have it be as generic and flexible a fantasy setting as it can be, kind of like Heroes 1-2 (so say the Minotaur text telling us they are beastmen created by wizards from Silver City and all such old wives' tales would be changed to be a much more simple and open to interpretation stock description of a Minotaur), basically because it puts the mapmaker in the driving seat to create any lore they want without being stuck in a particularly baked in prescribed framework, but that's again just me as a random layabout punter lol
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2017 01:05 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:13, 20 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Even in H5 Lore paladins were already holy defenders of Elrath's church, so this doesn't make any sense to me (even without H6). It is also not needed since there are other classes for the combo.


You say:
Quote:
but H5 has the poorest developed Lore of any Heroes game


I'm not interesting in Heroes 5 Lore (and Heroes 6-7 also), but there is a common logics in game world. If game world says 'humans are Light + Dark' and I like and accept it, there is no important what official lore say.
(as for me personally)

But I'm not blind adept of game world, there are 3 things that I disagree with TotE:
1) Dark Elvels = Dark + Chaos (not Summoning + Chaos)
2) Light Elves = Light + Summoning (not Light + Chaos)
3) Mages = Summoning + Chaos (not Summoning + Light)

This is my IMHO, but I'm not cutting/restricting any "controversial" combination of magic schools, only reshuffle.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 01:20 AM

@verriker: I agree what you said about h2 & mapmaking, but I don't care about the necro vs chaos stuff. I didn't even care much about having them mixed in H4.

When I started this project as a one person development team, it was pretty clear changing a game to a different Universe (and do it well) requires way more resources and time. Also I would require voice actors to redo all the 'Asha uses all' lines etc. So I thought making the best of what you have is the better and only option.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 20, 2017 01:25 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:37, 20 Sep 2017.

Quote:
But I'm not blind adept of game world, there are 3 things that I disagree with TotE:
1) Dark Elvels = Dark + Chaos (not Summoning + Chaos)
2) Light Elves = Light + Summoning (not Light + Chaos)
3) Mages = Summoning + Chaos (not Summoning + Light)


Exactly, no less than 3 faction makeovers. This is in itself already a pretty solid reason for switching to H6/7 lore.

Quote:
If game world says 'humans are Light + Dark' and I like and accept it


I think you are revealing here, you didn't play the campaign?
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Known Hero
posted September 20, 2017 01:42 AM

Well, however it will be, please make the mod as independent pak file so the users can choose to use it or not.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0657 seconds