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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Ideas for Bastion town (+Hope and Despair)
Thread: Ideas for Bastion town (+Hope and Despair) This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 30, 2017 05:05 PM
Edited by verriker at 17:14, 30 Sep 2017.

@NimoStar
hey mate there are loads of points I could dismiss there with counterpoints but I will keep it simple, let's deal with the main point of the dropped factions and spell out all the facts,

not to put a fine point on it but I am right because of all of the proof, dig into some ancient history of the past mate,
original design documents outlining the six factions and their lineups almost exactly as final were saved on 24th July 2000, first screenshots of Heroes 4 were released before April 9th 2001 and also contained all the main elements of the final game (same six factions, same lineups etc), game scheduled for September 2001 but got delayed (so you can not tell me it was completely rushed out the door willy nilly, it would have been rushed to the September if so lol), then finally released March 28th 2002 again with the known factions and lineups lol

also bear in mind the news about the Inferno dating to April 26th 2001,

Angelspit said:
A rumor has been going around on the Web recently. It has the Inferno town being dropped from Heroes IV for plot reasons. Since the Inferno has been affiliated with the Kreegans, who were destroyed in the latest M&M game, it would make sense that the Inferno would vanish.


in May 31st 2001 Jen Bullard said,

Maranthea said:
I'm very glad we decided to go with fewer towns in Heroes IV because we'll be able to spend more time carefully balancing them and making sure they play exactly the way we want to


also check this,

Sir Mullich said:
As we began planning the design for Heroes IV, Jon (or JVC, as we called him) thought it was time to "completely reinvent" the Heroes series, and he encouraged us to rethink every element of the game. He also thought it was time to scale back the game by reducing the number of town and creature types available to the player.

With those marching orders, Gus completely revised the magic, skill, and town/creature system (my main contribution was the idea of moving the “heroes” off of the sidelines and onto the battlefield during combat).


so yeah no point to speculate about that mate, there were the fewer factions by design from the start and the Inferno was deliberately dropped, for a year and a half it was all the same thing, thus that theory of chopping up an Inferno, Bastion, Conflux or whatelse at the last minute are mere alternative facts cheers lol
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 30, 2017 07:00 PM
Edited by Baronus at 22:50, 30 Sep 2017.

Baronus

Only lineup is a question:
...
Military forces:
Sprite, Wolf
Elf, White Tiger
Griffin, Unicorn,
Phoenix, Faerie Dragon
Some other forces can also be called upon: Leprechaun, Saytr, Air Elemental, Earth Elemental,
Fire Elemental, Water Elemental, and Mantis.
Modified: 07/24/00
...
Are you sure that time is correct? Not 24 july 2001? If they planned 2 years ago creature portal why it dont work? 2 years work and bug? Maybe they corrected all the time and first date is saved? Lineup maybe is later correction?
Its very weird.
For me this lineup is nonsensible. And has chaotic look but if you have documents you are 100% right. I cant discuss with it. Only dont believe. I still dont believe, really! Game looks very bad if its 2 years planned work.
...

Edited

Something is incorrect. I checked. Game realase data:

Might and Magic VIII March 7, 2000

Heroes Chronicles from 2000 to: Final Chapters June 1, 2001

Legends of Might and Magic June 20, 2001

Heroes of Might and Magic IV March 28, 2002

NWC really worked on HIV between June 20, 2001 and march 28, 2002.
Working two big games with completly another engine the same time and the same team (rather small 30 persons) is practically impossible.
24 july 2000 as data HIV work? Dont believe, maybe scraps and misty concepts. They musted work on Legends.
So all of it is very weird.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 01, 2017 12:33 AM

Baronus said:
Are you sure that time is correct? Not 24 july 2001? If they planned 2 years ago creature portal why it dont work? 2 years work and bug? Maybe they corrected all the time and first date is saved? Lineup maybe is later correction?
Its very weird.
For me this lineup is nonsensible. And has chaotic look but if you have documents you are 100% right. I cant discuss with it. Only dont believe. I still dont believe, really! Game looks very bad if its 2 years planned work.


it's "modified: 24th July 2000" mate, you're in the team, ask for access to the google folder and you can check the documents yourself, they were last modified on that date cheers lol

Baronus said:
NWC really worked on HIV between June 20, 2001 and march 28, 2002.
Working two big games with completly another engine the same time and the same team (rather small 30 persons) is practically impossible.
24 july 2000 as data HIV work? Dont believe, maybe scraps and misty concepts. They musted work on Legends.
So all of it is very weird.


mate I can't believe that you think gamedev works that way, go to the Garden of Revelation and get some knowledge, you very often have multiple teams with different skillsets either creating the immediate game, working on a separate game or project or prototyping something else,
in NWC's case there were various teams, they had a Heroes team and a Might and Magic team and by that time also a Legends team (which is partly why H4 and MM9 missed the mark, spread too thin by Legends, I mean read the Mullich article I just linked lol), you do not have all of NWC sitting down to make MM8 and when it is done starting to make Chronicles and then taking 19 days to make Legends lol, they were multiple teams working on each game simultaneously lol

Jeff Blattner said:
We began planning Heroes IV soon after completing Heroes III: The Shadow of Death, cheers lol.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted October 01, 2017 01:05 AM
Edited by Baronus at 01:08, 01 Oct 2017.

Baronus

Thanks you are right. I cant read english texts so fast as you of course.
They have some teams and Jon have smallest influence for work effect. No I dont think that Legends was made 19 days because Chronicles are only some small maps and very poor content. Dont needed 2 years work. It can be made by some people in 19 days. I thought was made about 1 year and HIV too. Ok. If you have documents I believe. But I saw documents last modified 2047 year. :-) So if its electronical only can be various mistakes. Still cant believe so failed lineup. But all can happen. Nevermind my impression of HIV is big disorder and unfinishing. If this lineup was planned for 2 years creators would be very tired... It needs general correction as I told.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 03:42 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:51, 01 Oct 2017.

You admit there are changes in lineups.

"last modified" to me is not a fidelign indicator. I trust more my eyes than so called documents, that were not released for years. I have seen the code and how it is structured. To me that is worth more than some "developer's words". If we took developer's word for it, all Ubi games would have been wonderful.

Ubi also delayed their rushed game several times, they were still rushed (Including HVII the pinnacle of bug)

Lastly but not least: This tells us where "concepts" have been made, not assets. Asset and concept creation are very different, often divorced, processes. Assets, as I said, could have very well been created before concepts were "finished", even in mid-2000.

If the game wasn't rushed we woudn't have gotten "overrides" for the expansions, for example, that correct things missing or wrong on the original expansion folders (often for compatibility with the other expansion, with a lot of rendundancy). And the issuing of these overrides also shows not even NWC had a good grasp of making their own .h4r efficiently those days, even for the expansions.

More about unfinished features shows the magic terrains, unfinished even as we have developer's comments of them.

And not only that. EVERY default hero has a blocking animation, which is never seen or used ingame. Monsters were intended to have "wait" animations, but these have been replaced with just their idle animations repeated four times in a file (wasting a lot of space, since the game won't even "wait" for them before passing the turn).

Those are only off the top of my head.

We have the developer's comment with the file locations of assets.

In the first exapansion (not in the override), we have assets labeled both for "expansion I" and "expansion II" (which means they were made for the second exansion as assets rather than for the first)
Yet, they were released on the first expansion, not the second.
Which reinforces the point that policymaking is divorced from assetmaking.
And also shows both expansions were developed at the same time, and probably planned from the beggining. Look at it, assets were being made for them before they even had names! And not only that; the files for the second expansion are grouped into nameless "x2" folder (all other resource folders, including Gathering Storm, have proper names), which means the lore was second rate at best, and the "Winds of War" name a very late decision (something we all knew: "people make war all on the same country" is basically the whole depth of WoW campaign)



And this is when they were actually comparatively organized!

Take a look at the first game at release. They not only were pulling assets from different people (which is understandable), they were "importing" others, they were not even classifiying them on the same folders, the same filetrees, OR the same hard drives at all.



So in a few lines we have D, C, G, and M drives, "developers imports", "from Brian", "H4" vs "Heroes 4", etc. locations... even "My Documents" on the C drive.

Oh, speaking of the completely-not-pasted-in Creature Portal, it had a typo on its animation name, causing its animation never to display, (not even on the expansions or equilibris) for over 15 years; just the static image was visible. Only in my mod I fixed it. More evidence about this structure.

Yeah, this "totally super planned and not rushed game"; I am not buying it. At all.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted October 01, 2017 10:40 AM
Edited by Baronus at 10:41, 01 Oct 2017.

Baronus

Yes i still cant belive that game Im looking now was planned 2 years a finished as in plan. Chaos and disorder. Weird dont working creature portal? Effect 2 years work? Weird ,,inferno" in 2 parts pasted in two towns?
Weird number of neutrals.
Order has ZERO neutrals, nature 8 !!! Why? What is a sense of this "plan".
Very failed AI eg. motionless AI heroes. etc.
Game really look as fast, last minute montage.
Maybe 7.24.2000 is a FIRST modifaction, non last. But I havent been in 2000 in NWC team :-) And cant tell. I cant discuss with documents facts but my eyes tells another:-)
Very good you found these documents! We can know more. Its only history now.

But independet how it was we must oredered this chaos. Cancel creature portal. Maybe if it will be only one unit eg. pixies AI will can recruit? It needs fffffff other units in code. Build correctly factions first inferno and conflux. Next citadel if unit defmaking will be possible. And lets we talk about it.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 01, 2017 02:00 PM

Baronus said:
Thanks you are right. I cant read english texts so fast as you of course.


no worries man, come here and give and take a handshake and a pat on the back cheers lol

Baronus said:
Still cant believe so failed lineup. But all can happen. Nevermind my impression of HIV is big disorder and unfinishing. If this lineup was planned for 2 years creators would be very tired... It needs general correction as I told.


mate I think the lineup of H4 is a brilliant lineup to be honest, it is a good evolution of the past lineups of Heroes and has great realism in allowing various races like the dwarves, orcs and efreeti to move their loyalties around as their agenda dictates,
you ask why is there asymmetry in the number of neutrals, that is because it is a realistic fantasy world with living beings mate not a perfectly architectured chess game, also obviously because Nature has an affinity for Summoning as part of the gameplay mate, all Summon creatures are Nature creatures because Nature has the power of summoning, a simple logic cheers lol

NimoStar said:
You admit there are changes in lineups.

"last modified" to me is not a fidelign indicator. I trust more my eyes than so called documents, that were not released for years. I have seen the code and how it is structured. To me that is worth more than some "developer's words". If we took developer's word for it, all Ubi games would have been wonderful.


OK NimoStar if you will be truculent on it then whatever you want mate, I actually trust my own eyes and research as well cheers lol
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted October 01, 2017 05:55 PM
Edited by Baronus at 17:59, 01 Oct 2017.

Baronus

mate lol!

Ok. maybe 8 neutrals is for summoning but we can summon normal units too and dont need neutrals. Its rather problem if it gives you leprechauns and you want pixies. I must alwas block all slots to not have some unusful leprechauns. It dont look as rational decision. Only rational is summoning pixies wolves or elves/tigers. Because you have these in army. But maybe it was planned.
But why order has 0? Zero? Weird.
For me necroinferno is big fail. Its hard join something to deads only other deads. And necromancy for hounds and green plants? You dont need ghosts and vampires if you buy cerebers and greens. But you have necromancy? It dont look sensible. And rational. But its your preference.
I think that if its 2 years work its big step back in lineup. MMIX is big step back to MMVIII too. I see degradation regula in it.
In RoE we have 112 recrutable creatues and 8 factions genarally thematic. In HIV 48 creatures in 6 factions only 40-45% RoE and hard to find what joins medusas and efretis or cerbers and ghosts. And worst is that we have 19 neutrals. Completly mistake...

Of course I like this game as you see in my posts. But I see big fails.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 06:53 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:00, 01 Oct 2017.

Actually Leprochauns are the best summon because they give free Luck spell :V

***

In other news Goblin Knight is non-spellcaster and has spellcaster sound (and nim). Dark Champion is spellcaster and has no spellcasting sound...



Well speaking of eyes (and not evil eyes), many animations are recicled from one creature to another, the same biped and original model.

Skeleton is the same as Pirate. (sort of cool to have made a "cursed pirate" that sometimes becomes a Skeleton in my mod, just like Pirate of the Carribbean :V)

Death Knight is the same as Orc. Even Fidget animation is the same, go and try.

Bone Dragon is the same as Black Dragon (This actually makes sense I guess)

Gargantuan is the same as Behemoth (Even referenced in the Gargantuan text entry...)

Male and female heroes of the same class, in most cases. (forgivable)
And surely much others I haven't even noticed or I have forgotten.

In the heroes department, why do we got so many heroes variant with expansions, you might ask?
These heroes models were originally intended for replacing hero models when they level up in a new prestige class!

ALl evidence points to this, as least with the ones from the first expansion. In game files nothing points to they having an identified "identity" as unique heroes. They even have the names of their prestige classes to which they were intended!
- "Archmage" hero (three or more magics)
- "Bard" hero (don't remember)
- "Wizard" hero (order and chaos)
- "Dark Priest" hero (life and death)
- "fighter" hero (Don't know, probably combat and tactics

https://s25.postimg.org/5yi4voer3/2017-10-01_13_48_51-_Heroes_IV_resource_explorer_v1.4_-_x2_overr.png
https://s25.postimg.org/6b9j26pen/2017-10-01_13_49_04-_Heroes_IV_resource_explorer_v1.4_-_x2_overr.png
https://s25.postimg.org/9i42ltwzz/2017-10-01_13_49_15-_Heroes_IV_resource_explorer_v1.4_-_x2_overr.png
https://s25.postimg.org/5zs2p2lpr/2017-10-01_13_49_26-_Heroes_IV_resource_explorer_v1.4_-_x2_overr.png

This is reinforced by the fact that, when your hero changes classes, they show you the picture of it. Why would they show you your hero again, if you already know them? It's simple: So you can identify their new appearance later. This window was meant to show you how your hero changed looks according to their new class.
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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2017 07:11 PM
Edited by Karmakeld at 19:49, 01 Oct 2017.

NimoStar said:
....
The creature portal has logic as just a way to put so many neutrals thatwere made for another town in an existing one. This taking into account it was such a rushed feature that the AI wasn't even programmed to use it (and no matter how you change the creature codes, Waspworts always appear as default).

Not only that, but besides the fact that they made all Conflux creatures and then some more, Conflux also fits as the last piece in H4 town logic (unlike H3 fortress sadly). Five magics, one town for each magic, then a town without any magic, what is missing? A town with all magics, of course. Such was to be probably the Conflux, following its H3 themes of four elemental magic teaching. We have also seventh unfinished semi-town, ingame the "Outpost".

Devils as a fire-themed creature summoning "Ice Demons", that never made any sense at all...
And all the flavor text in the tables about "Efreeti going to chaos" and "Demons taking on necromancy" for the hero biographies that sound exactly like "No, I'm not making this up as we write the descriptions, I promise!"



Now there's a few things I have to correct you on, NimoStar .
Obviously you haven't read the discarded Unity story (download original script) or read the story here.

This ought to DEflate (thanks ) your idea about Conflux being planned for H4. It was written to explain the transition from H3 Elemental Magic system to H4's five Schools of Magic. Read it, and you'll see why it wouldn't make sense that a single town would contain all 5 magic schools. Simply 'coz the Elements were incorporated into the 5 factions and thus not planned to follow the H3 way. Genevieve Seymore simply revolutionized the Magic System as it turned out in H4. You can even find unused hints about this in the artifact table - read the Tomes flavour texts and that of Staff of Wizardry (IIRC).

As for the Outpost, that wasn't a town, but an actual Outpost, meant as a warning system object (H7 used similar objects just named Fort I think, but the idea is similar). You can even enable it in game, then you'll see it was coded to be owned/flagged, but otherwise doesn't have any features. If you look at the Adventure Object Description found in the Bullard Files page 87, it's listed as (Majortype) Outpost, (keyword) name, (text) Outpost and is nowhere near listed besides the other towns. (I'm not sure Verriker, ever finished transcribing the remaining documents..??)

For the original faction/nation list, have a look here, where you'll also find Kendal's Diary.

There's no arguing about the amount of unused features etc. but if you won't take production notes from one of the developers as facts, then there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

As for the ways the game and the expansions were packed, Jennifer Bullard and many other of the original team members stated in interviews, they were laid off before the first expansion was released. This could explain some of the lack of connection throughout the game and the expansions. As for wheter it was rushed or not, I'm pretty sure Verriker has the quotes/interviews in the back of his mind, but I recall reading the expansions was rushed, soon before the bankrupcy.
Heroes Chronicles was released in September 2000 and I recall Bullard said it was ordered by 3DO, as small stand alone stories, to follow between H3 and H4. In some sense you could get the picture 3DO just wanted to milk the franchise similar to UbiSoft..

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 07:25 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 20:09, 01 Oct 2017.

Quote:

As for the Outpost, that wasn't a town, but an actual Outpost, meant as a warning system object (H7 used similar objects just named Fort I think, but the idea is similar). You can even enable it in game, then you'll see it was coded to be owned/flagged, but otherwise doesn't have any features. If you look at the Adventure Object Description found in the Bullard Files page 87, it's listed as (Majortype) Outpost, (keyword) name, (text) Outpost and is nowhere near listed besides the other towns. (I'm not sure Verriker, ever finished transcribing the remaining documents..??)


I do recall reading something like this. And I am trying to enable the outpost ingame with a usable picture, so thanks for reminding me that.

However I also read somewhere that outposts were an unfinished feature precisely and that they were suppossed to have more features.

In spite of that, I will give you the right on this, but on the contrary...

Quote:
Now there's a few things I have to correct you on, NimoStar .
Obviously you haven't read the discarded Unity story (download original script) or read the story here.

This ought to inflate your idea about Conflux being planned for H4. It was written to explain the transition from H3 Elemental Magic system to H4's five Schools of Magic. Read it, and you'll see why it wouldn't make sense that a single town would contain all 5 magic schools. Simply 'coz the Elements were incorporated into the 5 factions and thus not planned to follow the H3 way. Genevieve Seymore simply revolutionized the Magic System as it turned out in H4. You can even find unused hints about this in the artifact table - read the Tomes flavour texts and that of Staff of Wizardry (IIRC).


You mean "deflate", because "inflate" would mean it's better for my idea :V

I don't see why not even with that however. I surely do know that elemental magic no longer exists in H4. In fact I know of an exact other system of magic the "New" magic is taken from... Magic: The Gathering, as was sometimes discussed.

Chaos - Red - Damage spells, haste, double strike
Nature - Green - Summoning creatures and boosts
Life - White - Protection and defense
Death - Black - Necromancy and poison
Order - Blue - Tricks and illusion

Having said all of this, there is no reason why "no town could have all magics", with the new system or the old. Precisely by the time Heroes 4 was being developed, MTG was in a cycle of "dominion" magic where all five colors were combined.
Remember the original H3 Conflux had no justifying "story" to begin with...
Ravenwood from the "Bullard files" knew all magics. We also get an archmage campaign.
Conflux would have worked much as the Barbarian town, with the Conflux heroes in the center of the wheel, and access to recruiting any magic hero from the other towns - much as the barbarian town can recruit any might hero.
Of course, I woudn't categorically affirm Conflux was planned. But it was probably considered and, what is more important, the game structure allows for this - unlike what others were saying "six towns and no room for more". Seven towns (all magics + no magic + each magic) make more sense than six, and five too makes more sense than six. One could also say, if they put a town with no magic, why not two? or three? Fortress had same magic level as barbarians in H3.

I don't take anything a priori as a fact. I am a skeptic. The word of a person, no matter how much authority that person wields, will never override the experimental reality which we can examine ourselves. Game files take precedence over notes about said game. So when the two come into conflict, which shall we trust? The word, or the fact?

Quote:
RAVENWOOD: I haven't much time. Kilgor has found the ancient Sword of Frost.  If Armageddon's Blade and the Sword of Frost were to meet in combat then the world would explode.  Nothing could save you.  I am setting up portals all over Antagarich


Quote:
Q: Was the Guardian (who opened the portals) Corak (from Might and Magic VII ending), Melian (from Might and Magic VI) or someone (something?) else?
A: It was Corak - it is always Corak.


Uhhh nice coherent and not-contradicting "developer's facts" there. So if we can't trust the story to be coherent with itself, we shall expect it to be coherent with gameplay!?
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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2017 08:23 PM

Yeah my bad, deflate, thanks

Just switch the type to Outpost info, I found that easier than replacing the image. I tested it with Icespire/Redwood Tree, but it would make sense to use the extracted Tower (combat) objects found in equi 3.55.

I'm well familiar with MTG, used to collect those cards myself some 17-20 years ago

NimoStar said:
ALl evidence points to this, as least with the ones from the first expansion. In game files nothing points to they having an identified "identity" as unique heroes. They even have the names of their prestige classes to which they were intended!
- "Archmage" hero (three or more magics)
- "Bard" hero (don't rememberNature and Scouting)
- "Wizard" hero (order and chaos)
- "Dark Priest" hero (life and death)
- "fighter" hero (Don't know, probably combat and tactics


So why did they only make the 5 advanced hero skins if they planned for ALL advanced classes to have new appearances?? Could it have been 'working titles' or references as they knew the classes, but either hadn't determined actual names or just used them as referense. You see the same with the splashscreens, they also feature the names Archmage, Bard etc... Not the heroes names, like Bohb A prologue etc. The original splashscreen were also named Death Epilogue/Prologue, not Gauldoth-Half-Dead Prologue.. So it fits alignment/class stories. I admit Dogwoggle is an exeption, but I guess Fighter might've been considered an imprecise description. Note that Combat and Tactics make you a General, so your Life hero would get Combat skill and thus advance to become a Barbarian General?? How does that make sense?. Or your male Necromancer would become a female Priest if getting Life Magic?? (well I guess life magic could resurrect you, too bad the sideeffect of the magic would be a gender change )

NimoStar said:
Quote:

I don't take anything a priori as a fact. I am a skeptic. The word of a person, no matter how much authority that person wields, will never override the experimental reality which we can examine ourselves. Game files take precedence over notes about said game. So when the two come into conflict, which shall we trust? The word, or the fact?


Well the same logic could conclude the Learning Stone should've looked differently, 'coz we now have the ability to change it's image. And we all know that Darth Vader wasn't originally Luke's father, another last minute change..
I acknowledge your skeptism, feel free to be, but admit that some things are hinted as we can see the changes/discarded features - while others are mere guesses and speculations.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 01, 2017 08:38 PM

it would be fine mate to concede that all the documents and interviews are lies and that the Conflux was planned if you did have any facts from game files or wherever to prove that, but you merely produce loose and dodgy speculations and ignore the rest, thus there is no conflict there, merely fact and fiction lol

also be careful not to be a bit on the disingenuous side there mate,
you obviously cannot take a minor mistake from a fan Q&A she is kind enough to indulge over a decade after game release where she openly admits she has forgotten much of the details over ten years, and then say all else is bollocks, including the official word from her and all others from when in the middle of making the game, no offence but that is some stinky rhetoric there lol cheers lol
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 08:58 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 21:02, 01 Oct 2017.

Quote:
it would be fine mate to concede that all the documents and interviews are lies and that the Conflux was planned if you did have any facts from game files or wherever to prove that, but you merely produce loose and dodgy speculations and ignore the rest, thus there is no conflict there, merely fact and fiction lol


Yes, the "fiction" and "dodgy speculation" is the wishful thinking of the lore writers, the "fact" is what is actually ingame, in the game files and file structure.

Quote:
So why did they only make the 5 advanced hero skins if they planned for ALL advanced classes to have new appearances?? Could it have been 'working titles' or references as they knew the classes, but either hadn't determined actual names or just used them as referense. You see the same with the splashscreens, they also feature the names Archmage, Bard etc... Not the heroes names, like Bohb A prologue etc. The original splashscreen were also named Death Epilogue/Prologue, not Gauldoth-Half-Dead Prologue.. So it fits alignment/class stories. I admit Dogwoggle is an exeption, but I guess Fighter might've been considered an imprecise description. Note that Combat and Tactics make you a General, so your Life hero would get Combat skill and thus advance to become a Barbarian General?? How does that make sense?. Or your male Necromancer would become a female Priest if getting Life Magic?? (well I guess life magic could resurrect you, too bad the sideeffect of the magic would be a gender change )


Actually they proobably made more that got recycled into the second expansion. Witch King is obviously Spazz Maticus, for example (Noblity and Chaos Magic), only that by then they got around to rename them to actual heroe's names.

About the incongruence in appearance, that is explained by the files too:
The "Dark_Priest" is added to "Life_Magic_Female", and same with others (they all have the name of the class they come from on the file reference developer's note; see images), so it was intended to be used ONLY if your life_magic_female hero advanced to Dark Priest.

Of course the number of extra hero skins required to achieve this was unwieldy, which is why they surely avbandoned the project in the first place. But all evidence is there and quite incontrovertible.
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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2017 09:13 PM

NimoStar said:
Quote:

Quote:
RAVENWOOD: I haven't much time. Kilgor has found the ancient Sword of Frost.  If Armageddon's Blade and the Sword of Frost were to meet in combat then the world would explode.  Nothing could save you.  I am setting up portals all over Antagarich


Quote:
Q: Was the Guardian (who opened the portals) Corak (from Might and Magic VII ending), Melian (from Might and Magic VI) or someone (something?) else?
A: It was Corak - it is always Corak.


Uhhh nice coherent and not-contradicting "developer's facts" there. So if we can't trust the story to be coherent with itself, we shall expect it to be coherent with gameplay!?


Well Verriker already replied to this, but from the Bullard files, there's a document about Ravenwood.. "Using the ancient technology she created the portals and herded as many citizents to another world..." So there you have it, in writing, it wasn't incoherent.
oh and fun fact, they indeed had a document with this text:

"Gods

There are six gods, each of them representing a different set of ideas and values. From these gods came the Avatars that introduced Antagarich to the new system of magic, getting away from the Elemental theories.

Mansur
God of Good

Gurate
God of Evil

Protha
Goddess of Order

Sramala
Goddess of Chaos

Brehhan
Barbarian God

Crearea
Goddess of Nature"


Now in relation to the Unity campaign, obviously this idea was discarded as it contradicts the story of Genevieve being author of the new magic system.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 01, 2017 09:36 PM

NimoStar said:
Yes, the "fiction" and "dodgy speculation" is the wishful thinking of the lore writers, the "fact" is what is actually ingame, in the game files and file structure.


by all means mate tell me where is the fact in the game and the files saying that the Conflux was ever planned which disproves all the rest of the facts, I have to ask because you have not revealed it here yet only speculation cheers lol
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 09:47 PM

I never said it was planned. I said it might have been considered, because all of its creatures are in the game files and the ways to access them are lame at best. Plus all dwellings have an inmap equivalent, and practically every town structure (including the such of Arena, Battle Academy, Mana Vortex, etc. which have a functional equivalent in the map), but not the Summoning Portal (not to mention the elemental portal dwellings are the ugliest buildings in all of H4, and that's saying a lot)

The "bullard files" have many things that never made it into the game. They also lack MANY things that are in part or in whole in the game. So "it's not in the files, so it coudn't be for the game" is disproved by the very game...

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2017 09:47 PM
Edited by Karmakeld at 22:02, 01 Oct 2017.

NimoStar said:
Quote:


Quote:
So why did they only make the 5 advanced hero skins if they planned for ALL advanced classes to have new appearances?? Could it have been 'working titles' or references as they knew the classes, but either hadn't determined actual names or just used them as referense. You see the same with the splashscreens, they also feature the names Archmage, Bard etc... Not the heroes names, like Bohb A prologue etc. The original splashscreen were also named Death Epilogue/Prologue, not Gauldoth-Half-Dead Prologue.. So it fits alignment/class stories. I admit Dogwoggle is an exeption, but I guess Fighter might've been considered an imprecise description. Note that Combat and Tactics make you a General, so your Life hero would get Combat skill and thus advance to become a Barbarian General?? How does that make sense?. Or your male Necromancer would become a female Priest if getting Life Magic?? (well I guess life magic could resurrect you, too bad the sideeffect of the magic would be a gender change )


Actually they proobably made more that got recycled into the second expansion. Witch King is obviously Spazz Maticus, for example (Noblity and Chaos Magic), only that by then they got around to rename them to actual heroe's names.

About the incongruence in appearance, that is explained by the files too:
The "Dark_Priest" is added to "Life_Magic_Female", and same with others (they all have the name of the class they come from on the file reference developer's note; see images), so it was intended to be used ONLY if your life_magic_female hero advanced to Dark Priest.

Of course the number of extra hero skins required to achieve this was unwieldy, which is why they surely avbandoned the project in the first place. But all evidence is there and quite incontrovertible.


Still that's only 10 out of 36 advanced classes...
Well again those were ADVANCED classes, meaning they would need a base class = Life Magic Female which matches quite well with her skin. This is the case with all of them. My proof, the Archmage's base class is the Order class, which matches his skin. Kozuss/Wizard, happens to be a Chaos Magic Male, NOT Order Magic Male, despite starting with BOTH skills - but Chaos is his base skill.
Also both Mongo and Dogwoggle starts as Barbarians. Dogwoggle is simply named Might_Male_Axe, so there's no hint of 'planned advanced class' there.
I understand your logic, but they all start with the Advanced class as they're named as, so I don't see why it proves anymore than the names being references.

NimoStar said:
The "bullard files" have many things that never made it into the game. They also lack MANY things that are in part or in whole in the game. So "it's not in the files, so it coudn't be for the game" is disproved by the very game...



As for the Bullard files, I was told she grabbed whatever she could upon being sacked. 570 digital files (delivered in a single .zip container file) document the development of Heroes of Might and Magic III: Shadow of Death and Heroes of Might and Magic IV. The documents, images, and programming files are related to Bullards role as Associate Designer at New World Computing, where her responsibilities included managing the task lists and keeping up with the progress of development of these games. Obviously she didn't or couldn't grab copies of all the files that the game contained, what'd you expect??? I'm not saying it couldn't have been discussed, but as that's never been confirmed by any NWC employee, I'll have to consider it speculations. I'm not saying these theories aren't interesting or possible, just that it's a theory.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 01, 2017 09:59 PM

NimoStar said:
I never said it was planned. I said it might have been considered,


lol you are using various bizarre and specious rhetoric to argue that all my sources I posted are wrong because according to you the game files conflict them by saying something different mate, you're even doing it still in this post trying to make us prove a negative, come on man that's not serious lol

there simply wasn't an Inferno or a Conflux for that game, however whether we like facts or alternative facts one thing we will all agree on is to say it would be great to have more towns for the future, cheers to whoever can crack that code cheers lol
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2017 10:05 PM

Quote:
Still that's only 10 out of 36 advanced classes...
Well again those were ADVANCED classes, meaning they would need a base class = Life Magic Female which matches quite well with her skin. This is the case with all of them. My proof, the Archmage's base class is the Order class, which matches his skin. Kozuss/Wizard, happens to be a Chaos Magic Male, NOT Order Magic Male, despite starting with BOTH skills - but Chaos is his base skill.
Also both Mongo and Dogwoggle starts as Barbarians. Dogwoggle is simply named Might_Male_Axe, so there's no hint of 'planned advanced class' there.
I understand your logic, but they all start with the Advanced class as they're named as, so I don't see why it proves anymore than the names being references.


The picture-in-picture showing of your hero when it levels a new class is a reference that the hero was intended to change looks when it gains a new class, otherwise there's no point showing it.
Actually, this system WAS kinda implemented. For example, the hero looks change when you get Archery for a might hero.

Of course they start with such advanced class. This is only PROOF the model was made for such class and not for the specific hero!

And you didn't understand my reference. OF COURSE kozuss is a Chaos, not Order, male, BECAUSE that "wizard" advancement look was intended to apply ONLY to chaos mage males... as with all others they only apply to ONE starting class - thus why they resemble those starting classes.

And there are no more models, obviously, for two reasons:
- Once they dropped the feature, no need to release the rest
- It was an UNFINISHED feature precisely because it required too many models.

Look at Mysterio, the bullard reference said he would be order-death magician, his look reinforces this - Originally for a Order hero that levels Death magic.

Baron Tarkin, a Death hero that levels Chaos (Red-dressed, even you can see some fire-like stuff when he dies)

Erutan Revol, original model is Archer, white horse etc. probably indicates life magic.

Mongo, a Barbarian hero that levels in nature.

Of course, except Mysterio, these are guesses, but this is WINDS OF WAR, in the case of GATHERING STORM there are no guesses (save perhaps for Dogwoggle - but looks like a Barbarian hero leveled in Tactics, because of his armor)

You say this doesn't support the theory because his model references an Axe so that was to be his defining feature. What if I tell you Dogwoggle doesn't even hold an axe?



You think a Modeller would have committed such an atrocious mistake on his own carefully modelled hero?
This is nothing more than a shoddy misnaming of the original model name, which, in line with the others, would have been on the line of General(Barbarian_Melee_Male) [So, when a Barbarian Male hero gets the General class, this would have been his appearance]
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