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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity
Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted October 12, 2017 03:20 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 03:34, 12 Oct 2017.

Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity

My 2 cents. Balkanization =/= progress. While police violence could have been avoided, the Catalan government has been behaving very immaturely and purposely fueling the problem. The reason? Money.

Carry on.

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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posted October 12, 2017 03:24 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 03:29, 12 Oct 2017.

Sorry I've been away and didn't even look at the closed thread.

Looks like things got heated. Maybe it can be unlocked after a pause?

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 12, 2017 03:32 AM

You mean in the greed of unemployed people who need the working people of catalonia to pay for their unemployment ;P

Side question; Would you let/want Texas/California to cecede from US?

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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posted October 12, 2017 03:42 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 04:12, 12 Oct 2017.

Minion said:
You mean in the greed of unemployed people who need the working people of catalonia to pay for their unemployment ;P


Every country has relatively more or less prosperous areas. Should west Germany separate from the less prosperous eastern half? Etc etc? Do you want to turn Europe into a collection of city-states?

In the short term, Catalans might benefit for a little while. In the big picture, it leads to tribalism and decreases prosperity and stability.

Quote:
Side question; Would you let/want Texas/California to cecede from US?



To some extent the question is not hypothetical. The southern US states ceded from the US in order preserve the institution of slavery: another example of claiming to do something out of cultural identity but actually doing it for economic reasons.

It was illegal and while the northern US didn't behave perfectly I support the overall decision to refuse the South's ceding.

Of course each case is unique, but the Catalan government for the most part are small-minded nationalist profiteers. The EU is 100% correct to back the legitimate authorities.

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Minion
Minion


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posted October 12, 2017 03:48 AM


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 12, 2017 09:39 AM

Yes, Blizzardboy is right.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 12, 2017 10:39 AM

We need to segragate Northwestern Europe from the rest of Europe! All of our wealth is flowing from our rich countries into countries who only spend their money on booze and women! Independence now!

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted October 12, 2017 12:21 PM

I really can't understand what they're thinking. Unity is one of the biggest aspirations countries like mine had throughout history, paid in blood and suffering, so that people could prosper together and be more powerful, resourceful and open-minded. Why would you be so adamant as to throw that all away, for what reason? What the Catalan government tried to do appears to me to be destructive and immature.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


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Rush the rush
posted October 12, 2017 12:36 PM

I think it is rather clear how they think.
"Why should we stand for almost 1/5 of Spain's GDP when we get very little or nothing of value in return?".
Lack of unity is not good and neither is one region contributing considerably more than others. Each region is responsible for its productivity and while you can request support from other regions for a while, it won't do in the long run.

Also they do have their own culture and traditions. The problem is that these feats have been bashed all throughout history and especially during the Franco rule. In short, they aren't too fond of Spain so why then would they want unity if Spain has proven to be their thorn in the side?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 01:58 PM

So when it is Ukraine vs the evil Russian it is praised and even funded and supported. But when it happens in mother Europe's precious bubble, it is nationalism and must be discarded. Sound like a known music to me.  

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 12, 2017 03:36 PM

What kind of nonsense are you fabricating now?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 03:55 PM

When Crimea voted at 97% to join Russia, everybody around accused Russia of nationalistic and imperialistic goals. Now that Catalonia votes at 90% to get out, you stick to same crap, but on the other side. I have no clue what are Catalonia's reasons and I don't care, but you guys seem to constantly enjoy ignoring peoples voices, resort to same nationalistic slogans then cherish each other like you had some valid point.

The only fact here is that 90% of Catalonian voted for independence and that deserves much more than just labeling them as "small minded nationalists".

Pablo Casals on Catalonia.
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Warmonger
Warmonger


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posted October 12, 2017 04:09 PM

Catalonia didn't launch voting after it has been taken over by hostile army. This could possibly have had some influence on the results, don't you think?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted October 12, 2017 04:17 PM

Quote:
Catalonia didn't launch voting after it has been taken over by hostile army
Do you believe that this particular vote will be overwhelmingly different if it's done without the... hm, hostile army?

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Warmonger
Warmonger


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posted October 12, 2017 04:20 PM

Zenofex said:
Quote:
Catalonia didn't launch voting after it has been taken over by hostile army
Do you believe that this particular vote will be overwhelmingly different if it's done without the... hm, hostile army?

Yes, because it actually was very different few years back. It's not a belief, it's a confirmed fact.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 12, 2017 04:51 PM

Salamandre said:
When Crimea voted at 97% to join Russia, everybody around accused Russia of nationalistic and imperialistic goals. Now that Catalonia votes at 90% to get out, you stick to same crap, but on the other side.
It's actually the same side - that those referendums are illegal.
Brexit is more or less the same thing.

I mean, if you'd make a referendum, "do you want to pay more taxes or less taxes", you'd get an overwhelming majority for less.
However - what about a referendum asking everyone of whether the richest 5% should pay more taxes and the others less, what do you think the result would be? The question is - why can't we have such a referendum, if it was clear that there was such a big majority in favor of it?

People do NOT know what they are bargaining for, in any referendum. Do you really think the Brits knew what EXACTLY they'd be bargaining for when they vote for Brexit?

It's populist demagogues trying to use these things for their own gains. That doesn't mean referendums are generally bad; it's just that people are not INFORMED, they are INFLUENCED.

Now - why don't the richest 5% all move into the same area and make a referendum for the independence of that area?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted October 12, 2017 04:58 PM

Warmonger said:

Yes, because it actually was very different few years back. It's not a belief, it's a confirmed fact.
I don't remember any referendum for Crimea's independence taking place before what Russia orchestrated so please share a link to the confirmed facts.

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Neraus
Neraus


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posted October 12, 2017 05:31 PM

@JJ

Whether they are illegal or not is not the point, otherwise we Sicilians should pretty much go to the UN or something and say: "Piedmont never declared war on the Two Sicilies until Garibaldi arrived in Campania, the land was encroached illegally by a foreign agent, acting on the behalf of a foreign state without any declaration of war nor any legal backing regarding the sovereignty of the land, the plebiscites were done through the pressure exerted by the redshirts and the mafia ensuring that the population wouldn't express their own will, plebiscites that were not even covered by Sicilian law, thus they were fully illegal. Since these actions resulted in the formation of the Kingdom of Italy, a  state that then turned into the republic on Italy, we formally declare independence from the Italian republic since they have occupied our soil illegally for more than 150 years, without any law regulating the plebiscites, without any legal backing on Piedmontese sovereignty over Sicilian land nor any legal backing of the war."

The legality in state making is so murky that we could find cases of territories not being properly and legally incorporated into a state, does that make them not part of that state?
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted October 12, 2017 05:32 PM

JollyJoker said:
It's actually the same side - that those referendums are illegal.
Brexit is more or less the same thing.


Crimea and Catalonia, yes. But Brexit? Their referendum was nationwide and didn't break the constitution. Perfectly legal if you ask me. Same as the Scottish referendum. Speaking of which, that was the legitimate and fair way to pursue independence, not a regional government taking it upon themselves to do whatever they wanted.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted October 12, 2017 05:44 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 17:47, 12 Oct 2017.

Scotland has good reason for independence now that the UK is leaving the EU. It makes me sad that the Sceptered Isle will probably break apart again in the near future but it seems to be the next logical step.

Sometimes independence is a necessary evil (i.e. Sudan and South Sudan) but it's pretty much never something you try to do. Europe has been fighting & working for consolidation since the 5th century.
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