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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity
Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 05:44 PM

The argument of illegal stands when we talk about a very minority going the way we don't like, like drug consumers voting for marijuana to become legal. But when you have >90% of a geographic area or country asking for one issue to be fixed, then you can't just shove it with one word: "illegal"; continuing like nothing happened while an overwhelming majority is unheard and despised will only boost the unrest.

On the other side, the last "legal" referendum in Europe, which was in France 2005, we know how things went: people voted NO to European constitution, they got it on their throats anyway. So basically is "you vote my way" or I don't care.

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted October 12, 2017 06:02 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 18:15, 12 Oct 2017.

@Sal:

Referendums are far more complex than that because as a rule it is easy to severe from a government and is far more difficult to re-establish unity later. That means politicians and bureaucrats need to resign certain powers as the province is integrated into a larger federal/central government. It can be very messy and people become distrustful and fearful.

There are reasons why some things are not allowed. JJ already pointed out that rich people can just consolidate all of their estate and money into a certain region, blatantly ignore the central government, hold an illegal refendum, and present an overwhelming majority for independence, and then call it democracy and right to self-determination. You don't at least see some problem in Spain carving itself apart according to region? Where, in your opinion, would you draw the line? Let's say the upper-middle class part of Paris you live in decided to declare independence and become an island in the middle of France. Do you see that as being a problem? Should independence motivated by short-term tax relief be a sanctioned activity throughout the world? Please don't see me as attacking you. This is a legitimate question that I feel you should consider.

Besides, I seem to remember reading that turnout in Catalonia was under 50%. It might have something to do with that pro-Spain people might not participate in a referendum that has already been declared illegal?

If there was a referendum in Britain right now, it seems the public has now swayed towards Remain. But it's all too late now because the almighty Referendum has happened and there is no going back.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 06:15 PM

Referendums start to seem complex when they deliver unexpected and unacceptable results to the existing medias doxa, thats so simple as that. Then the argument that "it swayed towards Remain" is simply a natural response after any conflict of opinions followed by a solution. It "seems" Trump would not be elected if it was today, it "seems" Brexit would not be voted if today, it "seems" this or that. Yes, a part of people voting for an issue are ALWAYS disappointed because there was no following quick miracle fixing their problems. While the part which voted against will remain stable, so you have such optic effect, it says nothing but the difficulty of creating working solutions.
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Blizzardboy
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posted October 12, 2017 06:20 PM

But there are differences here.

A political party has a certain platform (with some variations from candidate to candidate) and there are established legal parameters for how an elected official can operate. So, although a person's popularity might rise and fall, there are term limits as well as in-built limits to what an executive can do without cooperation from other branches of government.

How long is it going to take for Britain to integrate into the EU now that it is leaving? The decision is much more dramatic and much less reversible.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 06:26 PM

Well I don't know the answer, but what I know is that not everybody is considering progress as the increase of personal wealth, comfort or no limits development of free trade between nations without borders. There are some strong beliefs around about EU structure going full suicide if this way, and every other nations being outside preserving a chance of survival. In the long run.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted October 12, 2017 06:56 PM

This is a horrible discussion because everyone is basically talking about something else.

I "attacked" referendums . the Crimean, the catalunyan and the British -, because in those referendums no one knows what they are bargaining for. Brexit was perfectly legal indeed (as opposed to the other two), but the point is, the people don't know what their vote actually means.

As an example, if in Brexit the voters would have known what Brexit would ACTUALLY mean (as opposed to the cherries everyone is picking for their personal opinion) - that there are treaties, that there will be long negotiations, that Britain will have to pay, that Scots may go for independence, because they are pro-EU, and so on, it's clear people would have voted diferently.

It's like asking a patient, whether he wants a certain treatment or not against an ailment, without telling them about the side effects of the treatment.

It's DISHONEST.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


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Rush the rush
posted October 12, 2017 07:08 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 19:10, 12 Oct 2017.

JollyJoker said:
Brexit is more or less the same thing.

What. The. Actual. ...?
JollyJoker said:
I mean, if you'd make a referendum, "do you want to pay more taxes or less taxes", you'd get an overwhelming majority for less.
And what exactly is the problem here? If they want less taxes, they get less taxes. If they feel they want more taxes, they get more taxes. The pendulum can swing either way but once again, what the heck is the problem?
JollyJoker said:
However - what about a referendum asking everyone of whether the richest 5% should pay more taxes and the others less, what do you think the result would be? The question is - why can't we have such a referendum, if it was clear that there was such a big majority in favor of it?
There is nothing wrong with having this sort of referendum, but you can bet the rich people will leave the country if they feel it is too much. Just look at what happened to France when Hollande raised the taxes.
JollyJoker said:
People do NOT know what they are bargaining for, in any referendum. Do you really think the Brits knew what EXACTLY they'd be bargaining for when they vote for Brexit?

1. And what makes you or any of the politicians so right about knowing what one bargains for I wonder?
2. What makes you think the Brits did not know what they were bargaining for when they voted to leave?
JollyJoker said:
It's populist demagogues trying to use these things for their own gains. That doesn't mean referendums are generally bad; it's just that people are not INFORMED, they are INFLUENCED.
And what exactly is populism and WHO decides what it is? You entire post basically floods with a thinking of "We shall have democracy but people do not know what is best for them but I and a few others do and therefore any results in which we do not agree to is not correct."
JollyJoker said:
Now - why don't the richest 5% all move into the same area and make a referendum for the independence of that area?
What does this have to do with any of this? They entire topic revolves a region, a wealthy region yes, but a region nonetheless, whishing for independence for several reasons. If you think Catalonia wants independence solely because of money you should probably study the case a bit closer.

As for your little example. Why would the rich need to do that? You already sit with their central-bank system which will make you the loser no matter where they live because the entire monetary system is like a game of musical chairs, where they control the music.

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted October 12, 2017 07:34 PM

Your argument about people not knowing this or that is not advancing the discussion, JJ. People can make decisions regardless of being limited in knowledge or unknown factors being at play. If they desire independence or whatever else, they can have it if they consider it worth in spite of not knowing precisely what that means politically, economically, etc. If those unknown factors constitute too big of a deterrent, they can always not vote. There is nothing dishonest about a referendum.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 12, 2017 08:17 PM
Edited by artu at 20:28, 12 Oct 2017.

Blizzardboy said:
But there are differences here.

A political party has a certain platform (with some variations from candidate to candidate) and there are established legal parameters for how an elected official can operate. So, although a person's popularity might rise and fall, there are term limits as well as in-built limits to what an executive can do without cooperation from other branches of government.

How long is it going to take for Britain to integrate into the EU now that it is leaving? The decision is much more dramatic and much less reversible.

I think, a solution (to a degree) to solve this issue is, in cases of deeply structural and dramatic changes, such as joining or leaving a union or a state, changing the constitution, changing the regime (federation to republic etc.) the participation ratio of voters must be at least 90 percent and you should have a majority of supporting vote, at least around 75-80 percent. You can't have so many people agree for a huge change, unless there is something terribly wrong with the status quo.

Of course, all of the above is only valid when the voting takes place in a functioning democracy with a free press. Mainstream media may not be economically or even ideologically impartial all the time but if you have free press, there will always be independent sources as well. And the basic human rights of the individuals should not be at stake, such as, it should be always illegal to go to a referendum to legalize slavery.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


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posted October 12, 2017 08:27 PM

That peeved me off heavily as well regarding Brexit, it passed on 51% of the votes cast, for such a huge (but at the same time such a trivial change as our dear David Davis is finding out that our relationship with the EU if we want any deals will have to be in line with EU standards, but without the consessions we enjoyed so far, so this led me to realize giving voting power to imbeciles that have no idea wtf they're doing, a ship captain is a captain not because he was 'voted' in based on whatever promises he can make to sway the crew, but because he was an expert navigator and commander, he has technical experience and aptitude, meanwhile all we have now are actors and that's down to voters being imbeciles).

In the end of the day the entire referendum was just a giant joke, something that may justify something, but it can just as easily be brushed off as a fluke (say the Crimean referendum).
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


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Rush the rush
posted October 12, 2017 08:41 PM

@Artu and Tsar
I take it you both then find it absolutely shocking that no country was allowed to have a referendum with a must-have 90% attendance and 75-80% acceptance vote in favor of the immigration policies throughout Europe?

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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


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posted October 12, 2017 08:52 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 21:12, 12 Oct 2017.

Not at all, as I already said I've found that the voting population in general has no aptitude for the civil task they're expected/encouraged to undertake. Whether it happens or not doesn't really shock me, (here average turnout is like 65%, goes to show that some people are a little more aware than their counterparts). Smart people don't vote, slightly smarter people pour acid on the ballot box, wise people on the other hand do whatever they please, on paper you could even mistake them for anything you want, (just like people might perceive a psychopath as a gentleman, when what you do no longer directly reflects on who/what you are, people have the liberty to see whatever they want).

Back on point, no, I'm not so easily shocked, to illustrate; when my little sis asked me what I want to be when I'm older, I said I want to design a penal system where every motorway in England will be lined with people on crosses moaning/groaning in agony. She laughed. So yeah, I doubt there's anything that can shock me, people's stupidity sometimes catches me off-guard since I can't presume some of the dumb things people legititmately think are reasonable actions/lines of thought (that's more down to people being allowed in positions and endowed with responsibilities they have no place having), but that's more down to being out of touch than surprise/shock.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 12, 2017 08:58 PM
Edited by artu at 21:00, 12 Oct 2017.

@Ebon

Immigration policies can change from government to government, it is not exactly as structural as a regime change. If immigration causes serious damage, anti-immigration parties skyrocket in votes anyway.

@tsar

90 percent must be the participation ratio not the turnout.
Edit: The part I replied to here is now edited out.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


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posted October 12, 2017 09:03 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 21:13, 12 Oct 2017.

I gathered that, but you also have to knock up the turnout as well, otherwise the point of getting 90% of attendee support would be marred by low turnout (I would argue the point of asking for 90% would render it pointless, since the objective I presume is to have/ensure an almost unanimous support, if you have piss-all turnout that would defeat that objective entirely).  

Though I find the idea delightfully unrealistic anyhow, but it is how I  would expect a half-decent democratic system to run referendums. Again, it's down the quality of the citizenry (and then this runs in parallel with the quality of the state, if one is lacking the other one will sink, since politicians do need the support of the voters, therefore dumber the citizens the more political agendas get watered down into palatable chunks, eventually it's a catch 22 once you've declined past a certain point, until you import some fresh meat from abroad to boost your declining culture).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 09:12 PM

artu said:
majority of supporting vote, at least around 75-80 percent.


That's the most safe pattern to never be able for any reforms. 75-80% is a north Korea kind of score. Democracy doesn't work that way.


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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 12, 2017 09:15 PM

So Catalans are under North Korean regime for voting 97 percent?

We are not talking about some tax reform but rebuilding the state, it should be a little hard.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


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posted October 12, 2017 09:17 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 21:20, 12 Oct 2017.

@Sal To be fair, if your country can't get a "true" majority support over a large issue then it should be worked out till a final decision is made, what we have no is simply delaying the actual debate (on an intellectual level, and not by the damn laymen) the nation state is well and truly just a dead horse being carted around right now (you need communities with enough commonalities to form a functional state, having states like the USA that can't even agree on whether abortion is murder is simply not functional, just dying slowly, prolonged mostly by the fact that it's a federation).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 09:22 PM

Independency is not a reform or a "structural change", but a heart and blood issue, unique to each people and depending on its history, roots and wars. If you listen that video of Casals I posted, you get it why Catalans independency isn't a light issue.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted October 12, 2017 09:25 PM

tSar-Ivor said:
@Sal To be fair, if your country can't get a "true" majority support over a large issue then it should be worked out till a final decision is made,


Why? Once a minimum of 51% is attained, the other 49% shut up, accept their loss then respect the law. This is democracy. It would be 90% which is totalitarian, that show active brainwashing by medias or fraud in votes.

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tSar-Ivor
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posted October 12, 2017 09:28 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 21:37, 12 Oct 2017.

What I mean is there must be a solid conensus on what a nation's values and views are, if the Catelan's no longer see themselves as Spaniards (if they ever did, here in England Kent is night and day different to West Sussex, the people the layout - the culture, and then Leeds and York are again completely different to their southern counterparts).

Nations are too big, too many abstract voices and no consensus, a post-modern nation state is essentially muddy water. The referendum is just for international recognition's sake and gives some extra leverage with the Spaniards, it's not the main driving force of the movement.


Quote:
that show active brainwashing by medias


In a modern state pretty much, for reasons above, I can elaborate further if you're interested.

As I mentioned earlier the quality of the state has to run parallel to the quality of the citizenry, bringing in 90% support would be catastrophic under current all time low in citizen quality, but if we had decent citizenry it would be a different matter entirely. So yes I agree with you (up to that point).

In a proper state where the citizens have high respect for themselves an others you can work wonders, but what works for them will not work for our current generation of mongrel-tier citizens. It's a downward spiral, and improvement will have to be in baby steps, or by breaking down the workload into functional units i.e the break-up of large nation states/extreme regionalism (city states) which I actually support, but the referendum is of very little consequence to that end imho, people that dont want to recognize them simply won't regardless of the vote, and those that do, will do so out of their own agendas not because they support an independant Catalan.
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