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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity
Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 12, 2017 09:35 PM
Edited by artu at 21:37, 12 Oct 2017.

Salamandre said:
Independency is not a reform or a "structural change", but a heart and blood issue, unique to each people and depending on its history, roots and wars. If you listen that video of Casals I posted, you get it why Catalans independency isn't a light issue.

90 percent is the participation requirement I suggested, not the support. But it is also the support ratio in an actual referendum in a democracy and you claim this is not possible. And independence IS a structural issue, not unique to each individal because you are voting for the independence of the state, not the individual, (hence, the state's structure, a federal Spain or two independent nation-states is in question). Individuals will have same constitutional rights regarding their private life no matter their "blood and heart."
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...and the laymen's landscape is rife with quacks and people with strange agendas. - Corribus

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 12, 2017 09:38 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 21:40, 12 Oct 2017.

We are seriously coming nowhere with this. So I propose we break it down into a simple Yes or No format, just this once, pretty please?

Is Democracy on the classic 51% majority requirement good? Yes/No
Is the 0 < X < 100% required turn-up for voting good? Yes/No
Is the Catalonian referendum good? Yes/No
Do you support their cause?  Yes/No
Do you think the masses lack knowledge and so referendums are bad? Yes/No

I'll go first and say:
1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 12, 2017 09:43 PM

The point of a referendum is to solve a sensible conflict, not something such obvious as being supported by 70% and up. That is voted right away, no need to ask anyone.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 12, 2017 09:50 PM
Edited by artu at 21:58, 12 Oct 2017.

Ebonheart said:
Is Democracy on the classic 51% majority requirement good? Yes/No
Is the 0 < X < 100% required turn-up for voting good? Yes/No
Is the Catalonian referendum good? Yes/No
Do you support their cause?  Yes/No
Do you think the masses are lack knowledge and so referendums are bad? Yes/No

I'll go first and say:
1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

1- Not if the vote is about irreversible regime change.
2- Yes, if the vote is about the above.
3- I dont think in terms of good or bad about this, it signifies something they have in mind.
4- I dont support it or object to it, it's not my country and I have no sufficient inside information about the inner dynamics and motives. But I dont have a categorical (read ideological) objection to a region wanting to separate.
5- I think referendums are edgy (especially on matters where the 5 percent that determines everything shifts every 5 years but the consequences of the vote determine the next 50, it's why I suggested for a more significant majority, this may look like a quantitative solution but as I explained already, if such a significant majority craves for such quaking cnange, they probably have a valid reason for it and it cant be written off as "they are misinformed.")
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 12, 2017 09:54 PM

Deep sigh. We are certainly one lovely bunch of self proclaimied mouthpieces of the people, aren't we?

I will let Mr Barely Mc Frothbeard represent me in this thread from now on. Frothbeard on the topic.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted October 12, 2017 10:11 PM

You don't even know the meaning of illegal referendum.

Short story, a vote was made in Republic Srpska (part of Bosnia and Herzegovina) to declare a National Day. This already broke the Dayton Agreement contract, which was made to establish peace after Yugoslav war around 1995. There were many hostilities about the referendum, which more than 99% people of Republic Srpska voted in support. Behind this stands the thing to have Republic Srpska declare independence from the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina, all because most people there are actually Serbs that "feel repressed". Link.

I'm just saying the referendum in Catalonia isn't so much illegal as people claim it to be. Basically, they just want to split themselves from Spain, which fell into an economic crisis. At least they have more logical basis to declare independence, rather than Balkan people over here.

Besides, what can be declared as "illegal referendum"? If people want independence, they'd still make the vote. That would be branded as "illegal" because which country would willingly let a part of it be split from itself? Same could go for Scotland, they do crave for independence.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 12, 2017 10:51 PM

I want my independence mate, Alba gu brath and all that, therefore by all means Catalunya can do whatever it wants to pick a fight for we can therefore point and say why do those fair plonkers nobody has heard of have their bit of agency and not us, they do not even have a Liam Neeson film to their cause, that is hardly right and proper lol

for sure in the year of our Lord 2017, patriots of Catalan, very well fed but outnumbered, charged the fields of Tito_Puente and the other alt-cuck snowflakes and whoever else, and they fought like warrior poets, they fought like Scotswomen mate, and won their freedom, and then we fair Scotswomen cribbed their notes for a laugh cheers lol
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted October 12, 2017 10:58 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 23:11, 12 Oct 2017.

@Energy:

You're right (obviously). There is a possibility that a side can do something that is technically illegal/sedition and yet be the more persuasive side in stating its goals and why it feels it needs to do what it is doing. It has happened hundreds of times. But Catalonia is not in my opinion successful in doing this

The UK is socially and politically more developed than Spain and Scotland actually does have legal channels that it can go through for independence. They're long and difficult of course but they are possible. I wasn't personally supportive of Scottish independence pre-Brexit but nowadays they do have a very practical reason for wanting to split. Catalonia is just a smaller symptom of a wider issue, which is a gradual return of pre-WW1 mentality and wanting to find immediate gratification for economic concerns that require a long-term strategy.

Scotland and Catalonia are oranges and apples, because in Scotland's case they would be regaining EU membership at the cost of losing membership in the UK (maybe. We'll see what happens).
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2017 09:39 AM

How often can you repeat a referendum? I mean, if you can make one to go out, you can make another one to go in again, and so on. It's like switching between Republican and Democratic presidents - it's always the evil you HAVE that you want to get rid of. Ad infinitum.
And it's always only the public "mood" OF THE MOMENT. As a single person, you'd be very careful to make once-and-for-all decisions not out of a momentary mood.

So working the public up on something and then press for a referendum is demagogic. Example: You have a country without the death penalty. There is a cruel child murder, then another one. Political pressure is worked up, media's front pages full of cruel crimes and lazy criminals having a good time in jail. Then someone calls for a referendum to introduce the death penalty for cruel crimes.

It's about creating an atmosphere of hysteria and then using the hysterical public to put pressure on the moderate political elements.


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tito_reni
tito_reni


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
posted October 13, 2017 11:15 PM

I could talk about how catalonians are not true nationalist, but globalist. I could talk about how their entire movement is based on hate against Spain. I could explain how the voting was extremely irregular, with many people voting up to 4 times. I could explain how they have been hearing lies for almost 40 years. I could explain how the voting was totally fraudulent, that there is no way that so many people voted and that they are making up the numbers.

But... apparantly no one cares about logic anymore. It doesn't matter how hard you try to explain anything. The catalonians would keep thinking that Spain is evil and that Catalonia is a different thing. Just like Venezuela would keep thinking that their economical problems exist due to USA intervention and not because communism is dumb.

Catalonia will keep being annoying forever. This is not a recent problem, this can be backtraked to 1640 when the catalonian burguesy tried to get out of Spain to not pay taxes, throwing us into a war against France, an opportunity that was taken by Portugal to claim independence with the help of England.

I say: let them have it. Let them crush against their own failures. Let them crash as hard as they want and as many times necessary, until they realize of their mistakes.

Our victory against separatism will only serve to delay the problem, and they will be back in some years, once again lying to manipulate History in order to push their agenda. Just like the left now, the Civil War was for nothing. It seems that the only cure for Communism is Communism itself, just take a look at Eastern Europe.

Oh, and if you think that this is only a spanish problem, you are wrong. Almost every european country has separatist problems. If Catalonia would have won, it would have been like opening Pandora's Box.

We should have never let this go so far. We should have never make any concesions to separatism. Now look at what 40 years of democracy has done: political corruption, separatism, radical left, massive immigration... All those elderly bigots were right, we were better with Franco. This is so ironic that it hurts.

This has not been a victory, this has been a shame. When my people look back in time to read History, they will feel shame, just like I feel shame about almost anything that happened in Spain during the XIX century.

Well... at least some people has started to get out with spanish flags. Who knows, maybe all this shamefull events will end up resulting into a revival of spanish nationalism.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 14, 2017 12:56 PM

JollyJoker said:

It's about creating an atmosphere of hysteria and then using the hysterical public to put pressure on the moderate political elements.


If is being moderate to have murders triggered by your poor decisions then decide to not move a finger to fix them, then yes those people need a lot of pressure to be put on them. Then there is nothing hysterical about asking appropriate actions, death penalty can be one of them.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 14, 2017 01:33 PM

It's instrumentalizing fear and hate in SOMEONE'S interest. Hysteria always leads to rash action, and rash action is likely to produce more harm than good. It's the tools of demagogy. Identify a "problem", put blame on a ready scapegoat, then call for "appropriate action".
It works, because it's human nature to try and DO something, in order to change things to the better, but the stress isn't actually on the DO but on the SOMETHING. And hysteria isn't a good advisor.

The rise of fascism is the best example for how things work in that department.

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted October 16, 2017 10:42 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 22:52, 16 Oct 2017.

No point talking about fascism when there are plenty of contemporary cases of demagogue populism and "do something" mentality at work:

War on Drugs: garnishing support from an angry/afraid public to pursue a retrograde policy that has never been rational
Building a Wall
Profiling
Anti-immigrants / migrants

And yes, Balkanization or thoughts of recovering "the golden days".


It's just a question of how much demagogues are manipulators and how much they actually believe it themselves: the fearful leading the fearful.
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"This thread sexually assaulted me."
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 12:11 AM

There is nothing wrong with vetting and controlling immigration to the absolute needs, which means you take people who actually offer something you need, not people needing the welfare you offer. Beside, a wall is something common in order to keep borders safe, Israel has one and I don't hear many people on the left calling them populists, in fact none does. This is demagogy. Then bringing "fascism" every time one of those matters are discussed only shows why there are no moderate people on the left, but only fanatics who can't apprehend simple concepts, so why bother.  

Also about profiling, this is a tool which uses statistics to validate itself. When you have same type on incident, triggered by same group of people, again and again, if you don't do intelligent profiling -as politician, you fail to your core task - protect your people.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 12:32 AM
Edited by artu at 00:50, 17 Oct 2017.

When it comes to politics, you fill in the blanks however you wish, Sal. Both the European left and the American left are very critical of Israel politics. Last week you said something like "well, if it means doing what is needed and not being emotional, I can use the phrase going full Hitler, too" in order to, again, try to desperately portray the alt-right as the sound of reason and logic. So somehow, one of the most irrational and frenzied leaders of entire human history has become a metaphor for cold logic in your vocabulary, yet, it is always the other side who's going fanatical.
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...and the laymen's landscape is rife with quacks and people with strange agendas. - Corribus

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 17, 2017 12:36 AM

Quote:
there are no moderate people on the left

Sal you are so anti-left I don't think anything you say should be considered an argument anymore.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 12:55 AM

artu said:
So somehow, one of the most irrational and frenzied leaders of entire human history has become a metaphor for cold logic in your vocabulary, yet, it is always the other side who's going fanatical.


oh please spare me the "out of context" artu's analysis, as always. I was pointing at people who use Hitler as argument when they want to paint someone as alt-right, while all what he does is asking for working solutions. So, if asking for laws to be respected is being Hitler in your views, guys, I'll go for Hitler and don't pretend I say otherwise, you understand me if you're smart enough.

artu said:
Both the European left and the American left are very critical of Israel politics.


find me a SINGLE article where left in France is criticizing Israel about its wall or populist methods. This is what I was saying, don't try to expand it to catch me.

@Minion, I don't see what your argument is, except that political views not conform of yours must to be ignored, which is what left usually pushes and this is what discredits them. The same thing can be said about everyone, you included. Stop venting air.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 17, 2017 12:58 AM

I clearly quoted you where you consider the average person who votes for a leftist party a radical or a fanatic!  You are just so embedded in your ignorance and hatred for the left it is sad.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 17, 2017 01:00 AM

some are very triggered against the left wing, a few are Milquetoast Malcolm in the Middle and others understandably very bored of the boring ass alt-reich but what about the up and the down mate, I ain't never seen nobody write in broken English tirades against those radicalized ******* on the down wing,

for sure it is a marvellous Bonfire Night for a moondance mate but those bumfaces in the undercroft are only bothered to blow us all up with the gunsmoke and the powder mate, if you too busy to argue endlessly if the Republicans and the Tories have a brain cell between them then that is for you but we of the up wing are the only ones with wherewithal to climb up onto the roof where the big bomb cannot possibly damage us, for sure forget about your binary gobbledygook and come up to our side, we will have the best barbecue in parliament by eating all the fried chicken legs left over cheers lol
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 17, 2017 01:08 AM

Actually my bad, you don't consider average person on the left a fanatic. You consider EVERY person on the left a fanatic. Once again, my bad for misrepresenting your ideology.

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