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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity
Thread: Catalan independence is rooted in human greed, not cultural identity This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 01:17 AM

Minion said:
IYou are just so embedded in your ignorance and hatred for the left it is sad.


Well, actually I was giving some arguments and facts -immigration, wall, profiling, which you ignored all then went the usual ranting way, calling me hateful and ignorant, out of nowhere.

What I was saying? Exactly that: people on the left are unable to discuss opinions they disagree with and instead will go on a rant and insult the other. See, no need to wait, there is always somebody to confirm my views, especially when the gang is coming to the rescue so I have now 3 examples or sheer quality.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 01:21 AM

@Sal

It is actually obnoxious to call me out of context when, in fact, your algorithm all the time is= I am against immigration, alt-right is also against immigration, I should support them no matter what crap they pull. You are the one seeing everything through your reaction to immigration, I already pinpointed this like a 100 times now.

Nothing is out of context, "going full Hitler" meant "going full Hitler" on that post, not what you wanted it to mean. And while you complain about the left, allegedly being deaf to reason, always hearing what you want to hear is also a form of deafness. Not everybody against immigration is a fascist of course, but there are people who are fascists, there are people who are populist demagouges, it is a trend very much on the rise all over the world, there are zillions of articles examining this trend and you are the only one here, always standing their guard because... immigration.

There is quite a diversity in here when it comes to politics, so don't you find it odd that almost anyone with common sense, no matter where they stand on the issue, reacts to how far you take things in order to defend the things you defend?

And about the French left and Israel, you asked for an article, here's one that sums it up: Link


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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted October 17, 2017 01:22 AM
Edited by Minion at 01:35, 17 Oct 2017.

But you are not discussing anything, YOU are calling us names lol.

Ok this is too silly for me. Dear lord.

Edit: Oh so you wanted to discuss the WALL after you called us FANATICS? Are you serious now

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted October 17, 2017 01:34 AM

eyy lmao man no insult all respect from the up wing to the even more upper highbrow right wing, you are right dontchaknow,
exempli gratia you got the right idea to tell the superfluous unessential immigrants to go away, for sure we need more the essential services like the doctors and the architects and the piano and the Heroes maps and the forum post very important cheers lol
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 01:37 AM

You invent issues, artu. I am not against immigration -I NEVER said so, I am against open borders when criminals are coming or plan to come by thousands. Also I don't know what you call alt-right, every time you do it it is incomprehensible to me. A world wide trend? How many suicide bombers from the alt-right lately? Do you even understand what means "trend"?

Also when you accuse me of seeing everything through the eyes of immigration, sorry to actually care about my fellows being assassinated by undocumented migrants, while the police doesn't fill the most elementary checks and is resorting to pathetic excuses. I will bring it again and again until is fixed, I think is fair and somehow patriotic, there is a bound between me and the people offering me assistance. Also is funny that you call the guys defending your views as "with common sense" but when you're told that wall = protection, immigration = people you need, not people needing you, vetting = ensure people entering are trustful, you find it "allegedly being deaf to reason". I am worrying about you guys, really.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 01:59 AM
Edited by artu at 02:01, 17 Oct 2017.

What I mean by immigration is massive immigration, you are against that and I have no problem with it, but you presmue a common sense in everybody who share your sentiment in this issue and such sense is non-existent.

And  I am not talking about "people who defend my views." JJ, Blizz, Minion, Verriker... You know, the grown ups who discuss politics here, we all have a range of opinions but while it is very easy for all of us to spot the alt-right non-sense, whether it is some Youtube video or some obnoxious thing Trump said etc, you always come in to defense and shifting the topic to massive immigration 99 percent of the time and explaining how they are the innocent protecters of their countries and how everybody else is buried in propaganda. I mean, you can defend it if you agree of course but they are not these reasonable patriots you make out them to be and terrorist attacks dont justify such a trend, which I happen to think is a word I know the meaning of:

Across Europe, hyper-nationalist right-wing parties like the French National Front, the Alternative for Germany, and the UK Independence Party won over voters by cultivating nativist, especially anti-Islamic, responses to globalization. Simultaneously, a generation of populist demagogues either held, gained, or threatened to take power in democracies around the world: Marine Le Pen in France, Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Vladimir Putin in Russia, Recep Erdogan in Turkey, Donald Trump in the U.S., Narendra Modi in India, Prabowo Subianto in Indonesia, and Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, among others.

Indian essayist Pankaj Mishra recently summed up their successes this way: “Demagogues are still emerging, in the West and outside it, as the promise of prosperity collides with massive disparities of wealth, power, education, and status.” The Philippine economy offered typically grim news on this score.  It grew by an impressive 6% annually in the six years before Duterte launched his presidential campaign, even as a staggering 26 million poor Filipinos struggled to survive on a dollar a day.  In those years, just 40 elite Filipino families grabbed an estimated 76% of all the wealth this growth produced.

Scholar Michael Lee suggests that a populist leader succeeds by rhetorically defining his or her national community by both its supposedly “shared characteristics” and its inevitable common “enemy,” whether Mexican “rapists” or Muslim refugees, much as the Nazis created a powerful sense of national selfhood by excluding certain groups by “blood.” In addition, he argues, such movements share the desire for an “apocalyptic confrontation” through a final “mythic battle” as “the vehicle to revolutionary change.”


I also think the last sentence pretty much sums up what "going full Hitler" means.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 02:46 AM

@artu
You are writing from a place where 98% of people share same religion, while 2% atheists, so what is your personal experience on diversity? None. I write from a place where the religious diversity is 50% christian, 10% islam but VERY vocal, 4% other religions, and 36% are atheists. Not even mentioning the ethnic diversity, that adds to the complexity.  When you allow such diversity to coexist, of course you will have conflicts therefore parties wowing for preserving cultural values will rise, why that seems to you abnormal, criticizable and a "trend"? People defending their way of living are a trend? what is this lately born nonsense?

Also, you use to label everyone worried about its cultural heritage as "nationalist", while it is about culture, not nation. If you had nationalist parties in Europe, their main complain would be about foreigners, ALL foreigners, while their main complain is about invasive Islam as ideology, especially at a moment where Islam is going through terrible inner struggles. Where did you read about those "nationalists" calling to a veto against asians, polish, romanian, russians, or every other immigration group which is actually represented all over Europe? There is none, the nationalist argument just doesn't fit.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 02:49 AM
Edited by artu at 03:41, 17 Oct 2017.

First of all, the official statistics in Turkey is very decieving. If you are ethnically Muslim, they put that in your ID at birth and you count as one. Most people dont change that, either because they simply dont bother to or because they dont trust the state and think city officials may give them a hard time when dealing with bureaucracy, make you wait for your papers more etc. For instance, according to this survey 40 percent of participants from Turkey think religion is harmful. It doesnt exactly reflect the whole population since:

In countries where internet penetration is approximately 60% or higher the data output generally reflects the overall population. Of the 23 countries surveyed online, 17 yielded results that are balanced to reflect the general population: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Poland, South Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Great Britain and the United States. The five remaining countries surveyed – Brazil (58%),  India (19%), Mexico (44%), South Africa (49%) and Turkey (51%) - have lower levels of internet connectivity and reflect online populations that tend to be more urban and have higher education/income than the general population

Still, I'm pretty solid that 98 percent of the people here arent religious and some of them are just culturally so, you know, from funeral to funeral. So, your assumption is way off, Turkey is a very polarized country when it comes to Islam, especially Islamism. Only half the people voted for Erdogan, remember.

And it's not just about Islam anyway, we both watched the Brexit videos, many were very much against immigration from Eastern Europe also. Plus, the rising right trend is not just about immigration in general anyway or Europe. It's a whole package of conservativism, the countries in my quote are not only European, you are looking at this from a very narrow perspective. It's about neo-global politics going downhill and people not being able to replace it with a valid alternative, hence trying to return to some imagined golden era of the past, while populist con-men in politics exploiting that sentiment.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 03:03 AM

yeah Turkey very polarized. When the famous Turkish pianist Fazil Say made a public joke about Islam, he was convicted of blasphemy and given suspended 10-month prison sentence.

You know, what always amazed me is how people living in full obscurantism and discriminative environment feel somehow entitled to lecture moral lessons to the ones actually managing to coexist despite differences, maybe not in a perfect way, but nonetheless enough to make immigration very desirable.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 03:20 AM
Edited by artu at 03:39, 17 Oct 2017.

The Islamists are in power at the moment, they appoint the judges. How on earth does that refute social polarization? That's exactly why we object to Erdogan, he's authoritarian. How come you being wrong about the 98 percent ratio turn into me lecturing you about pluralism? France can be more pluralist than Turkey but it's not the pluralist French that you defend, so how is that relevant by the slightest bit? You see, it is these very big leaps in your arguments that is the issue. You are emotionally charged about the issue, overwhelmingly reactionary and I can really relate to that part but then you make weird, illogical jumps and claim you have this overall analysis about the heart of the issue when in fact you are so far away from it.

P.S. The offical charge was "degrading religous values" and the higher court canceled the sentence.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Legendary Hero
Cave Moose
posted October 17, 2017 07:36 AM

Salamandre said:

You know, what always amazed me is how people living in full obscurantism and discriminative environment feel somehow entitled to lecture moral lessons to the ones actually managing to coexist despite differences


@Sal:

This thread is digressing and it is my fault, but remarks like the one above at least partially explain why you are frequently targeted by multiple posters. It is rude and more than a little bit arrogant.

You are a private citizen among millions who was born less than half a century ago. You did not build French society.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 17, 2017 09:51 AM

It's all over Europe, sadly. Independence, nationalism, eurosceptism. We are moving into 1930 territory again. Humanity seems a lost cause sometimes, they are so eager to repeat the very mistakes that killed millions of people in the past.

The most powerful countries are usually the biggest ones. Not those tiny, "liberated", meaningless creations. Germany was a total mess when every region was independent. The unification produced one of the most powerful countries at a time. I wish people would learn from history, and put their ego aside sometimes. It doesn't matter whether the politican owning you considers himself of the same nationality as you or not, he's still there to make money, not to be some sort of a paternal figure for his people.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 17, 2017 10:22 AM

artu said:
You are emotionally charged about the issue, overwhelmingly reactionary and I can really relate to that part but then you make weird, illogical jumps and claim you have this overall analysis about the heart of the issue when in fact you are so far away from it.


This has been often your main "argument" because apparently somebody  defending its values with passion must be illogical for you - although I don't feel emotional at all when I counter the snobs parroting each other here, because the "moderate and logical" politics you all defend have failed. We have Brexit and Trump election as consequences then unprecedented scores for "alt right" over the world.


What I am saying but you apparently choose to skip it again and again, is that in societies confronted to pluralism, to racial and religious diversity, the rise of political movements defending specific values (for example Christianism values as marriage vs atheists, western values vs Islam etc) is Normal and is occurring everywhere. I don't consider it as a trend, but as a logical challenge, a social thermometer. Is not like you have a bunch of developed countries there, exposed to immigration and race melting, but only in one there are political movements of alt right, there are such movements in ALL of them, and quite successful. So your "national baiting" and "big trend" is just democracy, people defending their ideas, as it should be everywhere and guess what, they organize into political movement to do so. There is ONE single movement who needs to paint them as evil, and that is the left precisely, because without that baseless propaganda it would lose the remaining 5% voting for it (example from french presidential race).

House is under flood and the left is taking its time to decide wether we use a big or small towel, because if we use the big, the small may feel offended. Cut the water first!


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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted October 17, 2017 10:46 AM

As I already said, it is not about what you defend passionately but the forced connections you make. You also discuss about music passionately but there, you are articulate and lucid, in politics though, you relate the unrelatable as fast as a cat scratching its way out of a dog pack.

Istanbul is quite cosmopolitan btw, even though non-muslims are much less compared to the days of the empire. And the new rise in hyper-nationalism is not just about preserving identity but about a misguided reaction to change (which is faster than ever), there had always been different people living side by side. An actual leftist approach would analyze this process through distribution of wealth and class conflict (like the guy above in the quote) and produce solutions according to that, not conservative identity politics. It is not the whole pictrue but a key place to start, I have no quarrel with the left in this regard.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted October 28, 2017 09:27 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 09:34, 28 Oct 2017.

Catalonia has a gorgeous flag. My inner-fashion king can't help but gaze at it. Such fashion. I would use it as a window curtain but that would be totally weird.



Red and yellow/gold are prominent colors in Spain. It is so vibrant and just looking at it makes me feel peppy.



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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted October 28, 2017 09:49 AM

I want to use it to polish my boots.

But then again I want to do it with every flag that isn't my Country's. And Latvia's.
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The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
with fabulous eyes
posted October 28, 2017 11:00 AM
Edited by Dies_Irae at 11:01, 28 Oct 2017.

Meanwhile, the Catalans have elected king Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands as their leader in this struggle for independence. President Puigdemont says that this is an obvious choice, since W-A's family has a lot of experience with revolting against and defeating the Spanish. Puigdemont stresses that Willem-Alexander's appointment is not for life: "We don't have infinite patience, we do want to see results. We give him 80 years to do this, by then it should be done."


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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted October 28, 2017 11:22 AM

not sure is Dies is trolling right now...
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Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
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Neraus
Neraus


Supreme Hero
Emperor of the Bromans
posted October 28, 2017 03:19 PM

Blizzardboy said:
Catalonia has a gorgeous flag. My inner-fashion king can't help but gaze at it. Such fashion. I would use it as a window curtain but that would be totally weird.



Red and yellow/gold are prominent colors in Spain. It is so vibrant and just looking at it makes me feel peppy.





It's an abomination.

Stop it with the blue and stars and bring back the heraldic beasts.

Actually Catalonia had the Aragonese bars, that would have been fine and enough but no, let's imitate the cuban commies.

Another reason to be against Catalonia becoming independent.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted October 28, 2017 03:55 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 16:02, 28 Oct 2017.

Mafia Agent said:
It's an abomination.

Stop it with the blue and stars and bring back the heraldic beasts.


Welsh flag had to be excluded from the Union Jacket because it was too badass.

The world values symbolism over imagery. Stars. Triangles. Stripes. Etc. Personally I prefer fire-breathing flying lions but what the hell do I know?

Quote:
Actually Catalonia had the Aragonese bars, that would have been fine and enough but no, let's imitate the cuban commies.

Another reason to be against Catalonia becoming independent.


The Catalan flag isn't older than the Cuban flag
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