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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Donald Trump the first white president
Thread: Donald Trump the first white president This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Blizzardboy
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posted October 27, 2017 09:54 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 21:57, 27 Oct 2017.

@artu:

I think what Coates mentions that will be interesting to see in the future is this: now that Trump has proven what a person can do & say and yet still get elected through the force of the white tribe, what if somebody else does the same who is more competent and knowledgeable of Washington & politics than Trump? Trump's rise to the presidency was born in the birther movement and the demagoguery  surrounding it. But what can a career politician do?

I'll point out here that Bannon, the strategic think tank behind Trump's campaign, has since gone back to Breitbart and is now actively working to replace conventional Republican candidates in local and state elections with alt-right candidates. They are attempting to take over the GOP from the inside out and replacing it with a new idealogy (or perhaps an old idealogy that is resurfacing). They're organized and dedicated too; they know how to publically lie and get away with it and even make it advantageous.
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Salamandre
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posted October 27, 2017 10:03 PM

I am not debunking its quotes or statistics, I am debunking his interpretation of such data, which is just biased beyond possible. For example, the article says that first 6 months in office were embroiled scandal after scandal, against all notions of decency. Then concludes that all demographic groups reacted to such scandals, lowering support in ratings, except ONE: the whites again.

First we know that every president experiences failure polls in his first 6 months. Macron is now in France at 32%, which is lower than Trump (36%), no one seems to go hysterical about. Then if you look at whites support still being majorly for Trump, maybe it has to do with the medias constantly bashing whites, picturing them as structurally privileged, racists and selfish. While in same time having the narrative that blacks and Hispanics are heavily discriminated -despite any systemic evidence or facts. I say maybe, but I am sarcastic.

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Blizzardboy
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posted October 27, 2017 10:23 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 22:35, 27 Oct 2017.

32% is high compared to Hollande's 4% at one point. Those polls have a different precedent in France than the States, because France enjoys the benefit of a preferential voting system - it is overall more democratic than the retrograde American model - and basically if a French voter now considers Macron spot number 2 out of 5 major candidates, they might respond in a poll as "disapprove" in post election results. So Macron really isn't fairing badly at all, especially in a climate with more adversity than in the recent past.

And Trump's scandals are on a different level than previous scandals. His style is different. One analysis showed that roughly 67% of the things Trump says are not factually truthful, but 1/3rd of the constituency is still dedicated to him. Trump himself even joked during the election campaign, "I could shoot somebody and they would still vote for me"
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Salamandre
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posted October 27, 2017 10:32 PM

Well, Holland's 4% were at the end of his career when people already decided we need a profound reconstruction of political movements, therefore the 4% were the rating of an old and obsolete political system. Macron is facing the usual difficulties any president will, this is having to cut previous subventions, having to re-deal campaign promises,  in short realism is a cold shower anytime. Of course, people still prefer free stuff -who wouldn't- so no surprise every president suggesting that you should work your ass to get respect or wealth is going to be more contested than venerated.

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artu
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posted October 27, 2017 10:38 PM
Edited by artu at 22:39, 27 Oct 2017.

Trump is an anomaly, Macron is not. The polarization between Trump supporters and objectors is not one that can be reduced to supporting him or not. Let me say it this way, if, by your own words "defending Western culture" is something that people see Trump fit for, there is something seriously flawed about that defense. It is true that Trump exploited a reaction to a certain form of political correctness which is out of touch with reality. Yet, for such a reaction to be as exploitable as electing Trump as president, the reaction itself must have devastating ideological flaws as well. And the article is good at displaying that it really does.

You seem to indirectly propose that racism is not a real problem at all in America. But for instance, when I talk about it with my relatives from there, (my cousin is 53, a citizen who lived there all her life and her husband is a mid-west blonde American named Johnathan), they tell me that racism is still there, just below the surface and Trump getting elected has A LOT to do with it. Blizz, who is an American, also seems to acknowledge this. So not only "the leftist media" but actual word on the street is not as optimistic about this as you are. My guess is, being in a social circle of musicians and artists etc, you can hardly detect such problems in your daily life, because such social circles are usually the most liberal about these issues. So you conclude that it is just an artificial bait, when it is not.
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Salamandre
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posted October 27, 2017 10:46 PM

no, I meet ordinary people all the time, and hear tons of complaints about racism every day. I didn't hear ONE which was valid or sensed, in which case I would fight along that person for a fair equity.

Most of them are "I have no diplomas and no one wants to hire me because I am black". I need more evidence, especially when those companies minorities apply to are majorly hiring from diversity fringes. The rest are "french colonized us so now they have to pay by offering free stuff". And when I look at videos from US, surprisingly I see same behavior.

Of course, each one will see such things through his own perspective, but mine starts from the premise that you don't deserve anything until you proved you do.

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artu
artu


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posted October 27, 2017 10:52 PM

Well, keep in mind that rural U.S. is not exactly Europe.
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Salamandre
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posted October 27, 2017 11:21 PM

World is same, artu. Economical constraints, stress and challenges make that everyone has to get the best in order to survive. Asians are hired everywhere because they are brilliant, yet they are not really white, and who cares or rants about? Where is the so called "white supremacism " Asians complain about?

I will never believe that someone will shot himself a bullet if the foot by refusing a valuable element only based on its skin color. I wouldn't and personally I never heard or saw such behavior. Instead, I can think of about  several reasons different cultures incompatibilities can lead to such refusal. I continue to think is all about culture, which is a flexible and modifiable parameter, granted all agree on the cause. But that another (boring) discussion.  

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artu
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posted October 28, 2017 12:56 AM

Racism against Asians is not non-existent, they may be less vocal about it since Far-Eastern cultures usually praise enduring hostility and not losing your cool. (Maybe, that's why they are bullied in high-school the most: Link) They must also be less organized in their reaction against it since there is no historical slave trade or colonization of Far-Eastern people, at least not to such degree. African history is drastically different and if we're still talking about the U.S., their demographic distribution is also very different, no Chinese ghettos in Louisiana or Texas, they werent collectively prevented from voting up until as close as the 60's...

But if we skip these details, the thing is, you first cariturize racism into its most blatant and marginal form, the way it existed up until the 19th Century (and not only in the West to be fair) and then say it exists no more because it is not that loud or direct. Don't get me wrong, I also don't like people obsessing about it or constantly victimizing themselves over it, I myself, could have feel "offended" in this place many times, if I was cherry-picking to feel offended but I think that's just waste of one's time. But racism today is not extinct, it is not something that builds upon arguments such as "X people are inferior because their skin color is different." I'd say racist arguments weren't that stupid even back in the times of colonialism. No, as the article also suggests, it's about the level of failure people are willing to put up with and how that is interlinked with their prejudices. Obama could not have survived the "grab them by the pussy" incident for instance, some even would have argued that "it is their culture, just listen to all the rap songs." But Trump did. Yes, if you are decisive, hard working, talented, there is not a level of racism in the West today, which will hold you back from achieving your goals. And that is indeed a progress not to be dismissed. But then, if you are part of the racial or cultural mainstream demographically, you don't even have to be that decisive or talented, you can even be Trump. The world is the same? Well okay, in every country, there are mediocre masses, not exceptionally intelligent, not exceptionally hard working, not exceptionally talented... Populism is pampering those masses about how their emotions, insecurities and prejudices are perfectly accurate, how they are "of course not racist but only proud" and feeding their ego. Erdogan does this with Muslims, Putin with post-Soviet Russia, they both pick Western power as the scapegoat. Trump does this in a way that only corresponds to white, mostly rural Americans. He is not in defense of any universal value or whatever "law and order" you assume he is defending. He detects the insecurity and makes his move through it like a shark detecting blood. That must be so easy for anyone to see, I am puzzled when they can't.
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Salamandre
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posted October 28, 2017 01:59 AM

Well, you look only from your perspective and based on the infos you get. The difference is that I live in a full developed left culture, overwhelming present in the main stream, I am aware of every value it defends, of every censure it triggers, and of every arrogant and spiteful attitude it wears. While the people on other side receive only the information THIS media decides to leak to them, they do not have access to direct sources therefore their way of understanding is made up. People keep saying that it is populist parties who stir hate and divisiveness while it is the politics in the last 30-40 years who lead to this. You blame the doctor giving the diagnostic instead of the one who infected the virus. What you call as populist is a natural reaction to what western culture doesn't believe it can cope with. In France we have regularly historians -most of them are now banned from mainstream, warning that economical crisis is nothing compared with the massive population and cultural replacement we are living right now, that the world faced every century about 2-3 economical crisis and survived, but never had a full continent population replaced over a couple of decades. So we don't know what effect this will have, or if it is reversible or simply lethal. It however deserves a discussion about, or it isn't even allowed.

People are afraid, it is not about their ego. They want someone confirming what they feel in their deepest. You always bring the argument that it is uneducated people who feel that way and that it is related to intelligence. It isn't, but to social aspects that make that you are more or less exposed to it. Educated people make more money and therefore have access to nice houses near other educated people and guess what, of same skin color. They only use cars to move around, enjoy their holidays in expensive places near other educated people, preferably from same social condition and same color or skin again. Sometimes they profit from familial fortune so they don't experience what is to start from scratch and fight adversity. Now put yourself in the place of the one who didn't have such luck, he is from poor family therefore he sees his neighborhood rapidly filling with other people from poor and culture violent countries, he tries to get a job but each morning he finds his car burn or stolen. When he finally gets a family and tries to find a proper school for kids, he finds out that all schools from such fresh formed ghettos are the last on the list, the most unsuccessful, the most violent and the most discriminated as well. The circle of his life become vicious and he seeks for solutions, whatever they are. That guy's voice was ignored for decades and now that he tries to yell his grief, stiff-necked pseudo intellectuals who spent their comfortable life into boring philosophical debates will call him a populist, a racist and over the top, an idiot.
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artu
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posted October 28, 2017 02:18 AM
Edited by artu at 02:19, 28 Oct 2017.

But America is not subject to immigration on such levels that its culture would feel threatened. Especially not in pro-Trump, conservative, rural areas. The situation is not identical to France. It is also not identical when it comes to what constitutes mainstream left or intellectualism. Anti-intellectualism is a concern American sociologists speak of, not overintellectualism.
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Blizzardboy
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posted October 28, 2017 02:46 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 03:09, 28 Oct 2017.

I know comedy is an insensitive way of getting a point across, but I'll post this anyway:

French Election and Larry Skywalker

You make the working class and unemployed population sound victimized and to some extent I am not at all disagreeing with you. You are absolutely correct that the higher rungs of society are more insulated from various social ills. But your candidate is not even remotely innocent in representing them. She's actually willing, among other things, to give preferential hiring to French nationals over others.  I mean, holy ****, and you think there is tension now?

I live in a country that has bullied a marginalized demographic of society for generations, and smokescreened the issue via a claim of helping the mainstream working class. I don't have to theorize what that leads to. Spoiler: it's bad.

But we might all eventually find out the hard way. Macron gave Europe a breath of fresh air but the alt right hasn't at all gone away and they'll have plenty of more opportunities to gain power in the system.
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Salamandre
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posted October 28, 2017 03:29 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 03:43, 28 Oct 2017.

I have no "candidate", nor I voted for her because I don't think she fits the class needed then now she is toasted. Then her idea of going back to old currency sounded to me very risky, and the majority shared my fears. But that doesn't mean I consider all she says as false, I agree with the majority of her points, especially on identity.

I didn't vote Macron (I was pro-Fillon which teased with a return to christian and familial values, then proved to be corrupt at 500%) neither but today I fully support him, he is my president. If in 4 years he still sucks, I will vote another.

Blizzardboy said:
She's actually willing, among other things, to give preferential hiring to French nationals over others.  I mean, holy ****, and you think there is tension


French have one country, France. If they can't have preferential access to work in their own country, what do you suggest, that they leave their country? This is insane, seeing that open borders permit entering people with very different backgrounds and education, giving them a serious advantage. And there would be tension between who, french and foreigners, so what? She stays for French presidency, not worldwide welfare.

@artu, you reason at present, researches predict a critical change in less than 50 years. You will have, in every western culture based country, a situation never meet before.  

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artu
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posted October 28, 2017 03:49 AM

I can hardly imagine voter-base of Trump making their choice by concern of 2065 demographic data. It's beside the point but I dont think a rise in all foreign-borns from the 14 percent in 2015 to 18 percent in 2065 is something catastrophic either. 50 years is a long time to adjust to a 4 percent demographic shift.
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Salamandre
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posted October 28, 2017 03:53 AM

You want to dismiss my arguments by minimizing the role of immigration. I never said immigration is the TOP problem, I only answer in threads where you guys raise the "race" problem, which is mainly triggered by immigration. It had its role in Trump's election, that is all what I say.
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artu
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posted October 28, 2017 04:04 AM

I wasnt trying to (put aside wanting to) dismiss anything. It's just that when you linked it calling it a critical change, I expected something higher. And as I already mentioned, I dont think the causality between immigration and racism is the same in Europe and U.S. In Europe it's really heavily linked to immigration but in U.S. it's more about its own history, poverty and gangs, drug cartels from Mexico, gun violence...
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