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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: 100 Years of Communism
Thread: 100 Years of Communism This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted November 08, 2017 11:29 AM

artu said:
I think communism had been tested under enough variety of cultures and periods (an isolated island such as Cuba, an ancient, very populated civilization such as China, the Balkans, Russia, North Korea...) to safely say that the theory never works even closely as intended and the results, although not always the demonized hell hole from some McCarthy rhetoric, are not pleasant.

It's strange that you've left out the one country in which communism has actually worked and works better with each year(and in more than one way).

The reason for that seems to be that people in power in that country for a change not only actually seem to have a real desire to make things work, nut also seem to have known what they are doing.

So your "safe" conclusion is obviously wrong.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 08, 2017 11:40 AM
Edited by artu at 11:41, 08 Nov 2017.

Actually, a friend of mine just had a vacation there and no, it is not working in the sense that people are all equal and this classless society now share all the wealth which is improved compared to capitalist production. Can you imagine most people from any developed country preferring to live in Vietnam for instance? Communist countries are not torture lands of course, life also goes on in China (state capitalism in practice), Cuba, it used to go on under the Soviets also, they made movies, danced in pubs, went to picnics... Doesnt mean the goal was achieved and after the socialist dictatorship of proletariat phase, they switched on to this classless phase of communism where poverty and hierarchy dissolved completely.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 08, 2017 11:42 AM
Edited by Galaad at 12:41, 08 Nov 2017.

Salamandre said:
But also a brilliant intellectual


Yeah love his rethoric (that one is universal language)...

I don't disagree he can raise valid points but he can also totally miss the mark on some topics. You want to listen to a REAL french intellectual go check out Henri Guillemin, not quite the same level...
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted November 08, 2017 02:24 PM

Seriously? Giving Guillemin as opposed to Soral then dismiss Soral on intellectual level is like placing pop music near classical then conclude pop is not REAL music because not enough raffinate and soft. Is just snob. Soral has one of the sharpest mind ever.

Intellectuals can miss points, you just picked the worst example then dismiss the whole person - did you watch the Korea movie? When a person speaks out his mind is easy to criticize, 90% of intellectuals we hear nowadays are hiding from a lot of taboo subjects so we never get to hear their true opinions - the other 10% are banned from public speaking. Beside, Guillemin died decades before we started to have many inner social and identity conflicts which lead to intellectuals being less neutral therefore much more criticizable, see Onfray or Finkelkraut.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted November 08, 2017 03:24 PM

artu said:
Actually, a friend of mine just had a vacation there and no, it is not working in the sense that people are all equal and this classless society now share all the wealth which is improved compared to capitalist production. Can you imagine most people from any developed country preferring to live in Vietnam for instance? Communist countries are not torture lands of course, life also goes on in China (state capitalism in practice), Cuba, it used to go on under the Soviets also, they made movies, danced in pubs, went to picnics... Doesnt mean the goal was achieved and after the socialist dictatorship of proletariat phase, they switched on to this classless phase of communism where poverty and hierarchy dissolved completely.
Technically, classless society comes after dictatorship of the proletarians, and the proletarians are represented by the communist party.
Vietnam has been a country suffering from a (won) war against the US, getting no help afterwards at first.
It's no classless paradise, but that doesn't mean it's not a working alternative.
Capitalism isn't working either in the "ideal" sense, obviously.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 08, 2017 03:25 PM

Quote:
you just picked the worst example then dismiss the whole person


Not true, I gave him credit for else after the video, but this example is 15 yrs old level, is not snob to take that aspect into consideration, to me it's not possible to overlook that kind of attitude/mentality when someone considers himself as an intellectual.

Quote:
did you watch the Korea movie? When a person speaks out his mind is easy to criticize, 90% of intellectuals we hear nowadays are hiding from a lot of taboo subjects so we never get to hear their true opinions - the other 10% are banned from public speaking. Beside, Guillemin died decades before we started to have many inner social and identity conflicts which lead to intellectuals being less neutral therefore much more criticizable, see Onfray or Finkelkraut.


Didn't watch the NK movie and don't need to, Guillemin may be dead his speech still is very up to date. Not going to argue against censorship in France which I personally find very worrisome. Thankfully some thinkers and other politicians still can express themselves on Youtube but that is sadly on a scale that is too small to affect our current 'democracy'.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted November 08, 2017 03:45 PM

By "snob" I meant you push intellectual hierarchy as comparison in order to dismiss the less capable, while my description was "brilliant intellectual", not "one of the most brilliant intellectuals", I pay attention at words. When you do that, you can dismiss anyone but the goal isn't to find who is right or best, but how a variety of valid opinions can enrich the perspectives.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 08, 2017 04:42 PM

Salamandre said:
the goal isn't to find who is right or best, but how a variety of valid opinions can enrich the perspectives.


Fair enough.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 09, 2017 05:53 AM

JollyJoker said:
artu said:
Actually, a friend of mine just had a vacation there and no, it is not working in the sense that people are all equal and this classless society now share all the wealth which is improved compared to capitalist production. Can you imagine most people from any developed country preferring to live in Vietnam for instance? Communist countries are not torture lands of course, life also goes on in China (state capitalism in practice), Cuba, it used to go on under the Soviets also, they made movies, danced in pubs, went to picnics... Doesnt mean the goal was achieved and after the socialist dictatorship of proletariat phase, they switched on to this classless phase of communism where poverty and hierarchy dissolved completely.
Technically, classless society comes after dictatorship of the proletarians, and the proletarians are represented by the communist party.
Vietnam has been a country suffering from a (won) war against the US, getting no help afterwards at first.
It's no classless paradise, but that doesn't mean it's not a working alternative.
Capitalism isn't working either in the "ideal" sense, obviously.

Yes, that's also what I said about the technical part and that war had ended a long time ago. And communism's claim was that it would surpass capitalism the way capitalism surpassed feudalism. Capitalism did produce better results than feudalism, where as communism which claimed not just better production but also happier, better educated people, splendid healthcare, a peak on science and arts, did not deliver those in Vietnam. It's nowhere near wondering around those margins either. You buy coffee in a restaurant and they bring it to you in the thiniest, cheapest plastic cup which would literally melt if the coffee is too hot, you buy a sandwhich and its wrapped up in an old newspaper, this is all familiar to me from my childhood when Turkey was at its poorest because of the -then recent- embargo caused by Cyprus invasion and the 1980 coup afterwards. Means your country is in pretty poor conditions in terms of life quality. I mean, I hope it gets better and better, my best intentions for them but as of now, Vietnam is not an anti-thesis to my statement you quoted.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted November 09, 2017 09:59 AM

You should wait with your judgement until they had as much time to develop (from being colony and victim of a bombing war) as capitalism has had from feudalism (or mercantilism at least).

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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posted November 09, 2017 11:10 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 11:26, 09 Nov 2017.

China is not even close to being communist lol. It's about as communist as USA is capitalist.

It is a unique animal, adapting to 21st century markets and politics from its Maoist past, but it has pretty much swallowed the competitive market pill. I think I stumbled on an article recently that argued it was MORE free market than many Western countries.


But like any label, it mutates overtime until everybody is using the same word and meaning something completely different. These words are all hundred year old relics that aren't used much in conversation anymore. The 'Chinese Communist Party' is called such for the purpose of continuity and solidarity.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 09, 2017 12:19 PM

JollyJoker said:
You should wait with your judgement until they had as much time to develop (from being colony and victim of a bombing war) as capitalism has had from feudalism (or mercantilism at least).


Do you have a few centuries I could borrow? I don't want to miss out either.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted November 09, 2017 01:31 PM

Nope, sorry. But everyone is bound to miss out on something anyway - colonizing the first planet in another star system, for example, is something we probably won't see, but that doesn't mean we should judge it impossible.

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