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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: what would you do if you were god?
Thread: what would you do if you were god? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted February 11, 2018 02:06 PM

Stevie said:
Well, no. I was actually referring to the world you were describing for the good people (which there are none when it comes down to it). Like the utopia world from Matrix that humanity subconsciously refused, if you want to bring up movies.


are you telling me that there's something wrong with a world where the human ego doesn't exist? are you suggesting that you can't have free will without it? i covered all the bases in the op, i think. that you disagree is your perogative; but i'm not incorrect.

the people left on planet earth wouldn't WANT to refuse my iteration of existence. because they are good people, and good people care about what's best for good people and everything else, and not just themselves.

unless i am misunderstanding you?

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 11, 2018 04:50 PM

Hmm, I didn't realize that we were headed back there. You talked about a story-line about being God. My earlier response was based on that I have creatively considered the idea but ended where I said...m/l. So I posted that bit for "inventive fodder" to mull over for your use or no, in creating the tale.

Ego and Good? Either as God or a person, I cannot enjoy the thought of demanding people decide zero and have nothing in the balance, and basically have had all life taken care of by a State; be that by God or human design.

Something I dislike about myself and as far as I have seen, it is present in most all humans, no matter the label or agreeableness:

"Mostly" greedy talking-heads seek machine awareness/appreciation. I would argue we'd all be far better off working on human-awareness...and then navigating how WE retain the (labor, effort, ease, benefit, rewarded-goal, etc, = worth) of whatever we WANTED - after we have it. "Don't know what we have till it's gone" or "Taking so & so or whatever-else for granted." Every human-relationship is also inside this view.

I decided to continually exercise my mind - to keep my eye on the little-things that matter in my Life. Loads and loads of material-gifts to ourselves, make it nearly a hopeless pursuit. I keep my world of reward or pleasure-seeking very small because it makes the challenge much easier but that effort will not erase the problem. <imo>Folks that have to buy, borrow or steal the latest-version of you-name-it are problematic to our Earth, other folks and in the long run to themselves.

Here's why; I detest the fact that I worked hard, saved money, bought a 57-chevy, spent many more hours "tricking-out" the motor, looks, etc. joined a car-club etc. etc. and (honestly) adored the machine; however, after a few years I could drive it and not remember a thing about that car at any time taking a drive, and far worse, because I had driven a previous vehicle on the same roads before getting the damn thing, I was seldom aware of the world around those streets. Driving in-to anything in that part of the world? Works very well, in making a person "be-there" but it is not a highly-desirable re-focus.

Something "maybe" to mull-over in your story?

Imagining God, is not an easy task for this kid. The best and brightest minds on earth have visualized and pursued many things, both good and bad but after all that combined-effort? Yeah.

Say in your story; if I dared to become God's advisor<LOL> i.e. I might simply plea for a time-jump back to when inventions were hand-tools for individuals and not for any power-purpose in controlling or leading, or killing of the masses at great-distance. But, "unchecked" from there...that mindset would evolve us here again. "I can't get no Satisfaction" might have a wee bit to do with that? Awareness + Moderation magnifying our needs/wants balance may be priority places to consider inside your design?

Cheers fred

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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted February 11, 2018 04:59 PM

you lost me, man(and i tried reading and rereading your post, but i'm not getting the point, honestly). are you saying you wouldn't want to live in a world much like the garden of eden; only with awareness and magical control over what you wanted to eat/drink/feel?

a god in such an existence wouldn't require worship; indeed, religion wouldn't need to exist, because everyone would already be happy and peaceful with everything around them.

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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
posted February 11, 2018 08:35 PM
Edited by Stevie at 20:39, 11 Feb 2018.

OhforfSake said:
I remember I felt it was a cop out by the movie.

Similar to:
Q: "Why is the X the way it is?"
A: "Because subconsciously you want this"

Works with everything, so in a way it works with nothing.


Cop-out for what? It had nothing to do with the actual plot of the trilogy. If anything, it was mentioned as an interesting thought, one I can very well get behind.

A world devoid of struggle and antagonism, one where you can wish anything into existence that can only be "good", is a different kind of hell. Take a scientist for example, whose passion and purpose in life is the pursuit of knowledge. One of the worst things you can possibly do to him is to make him omniscient. At that point you essentially stripped away from him the thrill of discovery and his reason for living the life of a scientist, because he knows everything as an inherent principle of his being, not because he did anything to get there. Then take a gamer for instance, and make him always win and unable to lose. Every conclusion to his games is already foregone, inevitable, and before long he won't find any pleasure in winning because it's the new status quo. It would actually be very interesting if he started desiring to lose instead, or if the scientist desired to not know, just so they could experience something different, something new and outside their absolute prerogatives. But then you'd have to ask yourself about the nature of what is "good". If there's something left to be desired from God-like abilities like omniscience or winning all the time (sort of omnipotence), then are they not "good"? Aren't they the pinnacle of our ideals? I believe that the answer is that they are not "good enough" by themselves. We are creatures blessed with an existence not of simply being, but of becoming. That is our nature. Between snapping your fingers to get somewhere or do something and having to invest effort, overcome odds and going against adversity, which is at the end of the day more satisfactory and giving a sense of achievement? Which is the one that cultivates maturity and improvement?

This is actually a very interesting and revealing point as to human nature, one you can find a lot in literature and media today. I mentioned The Matrix for a movie, have One-Punch Man for an anime (central theme), or TES:Skyrim for a game when you find Paarthurnax saying: "What is better: to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?", or Carl Rogers for an author saying: "The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination." There's no shortage of examples, so by all means, far from being a cheap cop-out, it is a very fascinating and thought-provoking idea.
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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted February 11, 2018 08:51 PM

Stevie said:
A world devoid of struggle and antagonism, one where you can wish anything into existence that can only be "good", is a different kind of hell. Take a scientist for example, whose passion and purpose in life is the pursuit of knowledge. One of the worst things you can possibly do to him is to make him omniscient. At that point you essentially stripped away from him the thrill of discovery and his reason for living the life of a scientist, because he knows everything as an inherent principle of his being, not because he did anything to get there. Then take a gamer for instance, and make him always win and unable to lose. Every conclusion to his games is already foregone, inevitable, and before long he won't find any pleasure in winning because it's the new status quo. It would actually be very interesting if he started desiring to lose instead, or if the scientist desired to not know, just so they could experience something different, something new and outside their absolute prerogatives. But then you'd have to ask yourself about the nature of what is "good". If there's something left to be desired from God-like abilities like omniscience or winning all the time (sort of omnipotence), then are they not "good"? Aren't they the pinnacle of our ideals? I believe that the answer is that they are not "good enough" by themselves. We are creatures blessed with an existence not of simply being, but of becoming. That is our nature. Between snapping your fingers to get somewhere or do something and having to invest effort, overcome odds and going against adversity, which is at the end of the day more satisfactory and giving a sense of achievement? Which is the one that cultivates maturity and improvement?


i absolutely disagree. have you SEEN humanity? where is this maturity that you speak of? they've been struggling for centuries, and our technology and science have advanced faster than we have, ffs. the human race still acts like spoiled children. and with our technology and science, we get even more spoiled.

now, if you erase the ego from the equation, you are essentially erasing suffering(as long as the human vermin/anything hostile or harmful is also removed from the equation).

the world i describe as god, does just that. if good people left on earth can wish things into existence, then why wouldn't they be able to wish into existence a puzzle for them to solve, or knowledge for them to gain? the existence i describe covers all the bases.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 11, 2018 08:56 PM

Stevie said:
OhforfSake said:
I remember I felt it was a cop out by the movie.

Similar to:
Q: "Why is the X the way it is?"
A: "Because subconsciously you want this"

Works with everything, so in a way it works with nothing.


Cop-out for what? It had nothing to do with the actual plot of the trilogy. If anything, it was mentioned as an interesting thought, one I can very well get behind.

It did, it was an explanation of why the Matrix was built the way it was, becuse the obvious question to many of the audience would be, if the machines decieve us with a simulation to feed from us, then why is that simulation some modern city life with all its neurosis instead of eternal bliss and constant pleasure (like some permanent heroin high) which would be much easier to simulate (less detail and coding) and nobody would try to escape from. So you have to come up with a realistic explanation to be believable, the explanation didnt satisfy Forfy, so he calls it a cop-out.

I don't think it's that bad though, it's kind of like Lacan psychology where "the object of desire" is not the actual source of passion but "the pursuit" is. Studies also show we  release more dophamine not when we are rewarded but rather when we know we'll achieve the reward because we are capable of doing the work, for instance, not the moment when you see you scored a ten in an exam but rather while you're solving the question thinking "hah, this one's a piece of cake, I'm so on this."

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 11, 2018 09:39 PM

Indeed. I was actually glad they mentioned it, because then I had hope they would venture down this road in the sequels, showing us why it didn't work.

Then there would at least be something tangible to discuss.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 11, 2018 09:42 PM

Just hang on to it...or not. Basically I chose a very small issue and thought it "could" spark something in your story-line.

I like your garden of eden reference because I think there is something of great importance there. You have your happy naked people right? What happens? They are seduced to grab knowledge granted by forbidden fruit? Then they yearn to learn their paradise?

I cannot ramble on but therr are modern things I have witnessed and a myth that I write could be something about a Cake. Adam and Eve are sitting in the living-room and they smell the awesome aroma wafting around them and Eve says..."Granny's made Chocolate Cake man...let's go get a slice. "

Adam agrees and they both walk hand in hand to get some. However, Adam begins an oration and starts a long role-call of statistics and studies, FINDINGs that analyze and dissect all ingredients of the cake = wheat, milling, seeds, methods of harvest, economics of the region where grown - labor practices & methods of production - then he brings out another large Tome on eggs and chicken-life, etc. - water, purity and filtration - bake-wear, glass, metals  etc. - Ovens, gas, electric, utility-company stats, etc. - cocoa beans, chocolate powder, etc.

Now, this is before talking about "measurements" (dry and liquid, calibration and the source of the recipe or secret-recipe. <LOL>

Eve finally yells Adam! Will you pa-lease...just use your senses and enjoy granny's cake?  


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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 11, 2018 09:56 PM
Edited by Stevie at 21:59, 11 Feb 2018.

artu said:
It did, it was an explanation of why the Matrix was built the way it was, becuse the obvious question to many of the audience would be, if the machines decieve us with a simulation to feed from us, then why is that simulation some modern city life with all its neurosis instead of eternal bliss and constant pleasure (like some permanent heroin high) which would be much easier to simulate (less detail and coding) and nobody would try to escape from. So you have to come up with a realistic explanation to be believable, the explanation didnt satisfy Forfy, so he calls it a cop-out.


I wouldn't call that a cop-out at all. I wouldn't even call it an explanation. At best I would call it a very interesting lore piece enriching the universe. The fact that machines could create a virtual reality mimicking our reality down to the nitty-gritty for the purpose of deceit makes sense in and of itself, it doesn't beg any further question. A cop-out in the true sense of the phrase would've been if Neo magically acquired control over the machines through being "the chosen one" and made everything better for humanity, because that would be directly affecting the plot (thank God I din't get to see that ending). An excerpt from who-knows-when that is not driving the plot can't be a cop-out, it cops nothing out.

artu said:
I don't think it's that bad though, it's kind of like Lacan psychology where "the object of desire" is not the actual source of passion but "the pursuit" is. Studies also show we  release more dophamine not when we are rewarded but rather when we know we'll achieve the reward because we are capable of doing the work, for instance, not the moment when you see you scored a ten in an exam but rather while you're solving the question thinking "hah, this one's a piece of cake, I'm so on this."


That's quite close to what I mean, but I don't think taking an exam counts as a good example. That's behavior under stress with which you cope better by releasing adrenaline, not dopamine. So unless you get your kicks that way, it's likely not what I meant. But I think you got my point with "object of desire" and "pursuit".
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The Young Traveler

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 11, 2018 10:03 PM

Why does it make sense "in and of itself" Stevie?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 11, 2018 10:09 PM
Edited by artu at 22:51, 11 Feb 2018.

Quote:
The fact that machines could create a virtual reality mimicking our reality down to the nitty-gritty for the purpose of deceit makes sense in and of itself, it doesn't beg any further question.

It does, it begs the question of "why bother?" When we build fish farms, do we bother to imitate the Pacific with sharks and octopusses and so on? The very reason they put that scene is, without such explanation, the way Matrix was built doesnt make much sense. It's an overdesign.

And an exam that you know you're going to score a ten would not give you any stress, there has to be a sense of achievment, for instance, they did also try this with monkeys (reach the banana kind of puzzles/exams) and the monkeys also released more dopamine when they realized they are about to get the banana by solving the tests rather than while eating the bananas.
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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
posted February 11, 2018 10:50 PM

artu said:
It does, it begs the question of "why bother?" When we build fish farms, do we bother to imitate the pacific with sharks and octopusses and so on? The very reason they put that scene is, without such explanation, the way Matrix was built doesnt make much sense. It's an overdesign.


The "why bother" has its answer already - deceit.
The intellectual well-being and acceptance of a fish can't be put on par with a human's. Not that fish are required acceptance by a farmer, unlike how the Matrix required acceptance from humanity, so the comparison is besides the point.
You call simulacrum overdesign? What better way to deceive people than creating the perfect counterfeit. It's like an age-old theme.

artu said:
And an exam that you know you're going to score a ten would not give you any stress, there has to be a sense of achievment, for instance, they did also try this with monkeys (reach the banana kind of puzzles/exams) and the monkeys also released dophamine when they realized they are about to get the banana by solving the tests rather than while eating the bananas.


There is no exam which you know you're going to ace, no matter how well prepared you are (experience). Stress takes the cake, reward doesn't even come close. And you seriously cannot compare the nerve wrecking of a 2-3 hour-long academical test to the monkeying around for a banana, the level's not quite there to say the least.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 11, 2018 11:02 PM
Edited by artu at 23:13, 11 Feb 2018.

There is still deceit in any kind of simulation and what you say doesnt even make sense from the perspective of the lore, because Agent Smith does explain, of course the first simulation they came up with was one in which everyone was always happy (that is what anybody would try at first) but it failed (forfy's not convinced WHY it had to fail).

And about humans releasing more dopamine when they are dealing with TASKS (such as exams, occupational challenges etc.) they know they can handle, you do realize this is not an idea or opinion, right? They did research and dopamine levels got highest not while getting rewarded but while managing the task.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Supreme Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted February 11, 2018 11:12 PM

Yeah, but exams are a bit of a problematic areas, we're not all Einsteins that can ace exams just by looking at them.

This reminds me of playing any Paradox grand strategy games, you feel like a great general/statesman/ruler when you exploit your neighbours to conquer them and get rich, then you get a grim reminder of your sub-par intelligence in most cases in the form of the Ottomans declaring war on you while outnumbering you 3-to-1 and somehow having more morale and discipline than you.

Or in the form of some caliphate wrecking you for the same reason, or in the form of a fallen space empire that has OP tech compared to you, or in the form of the United States and Soviet Union both attacking you.

And yet you'll still play a minor nation (or a doomed one), even though you know only failure awaits you.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 11, 2018 11:26 PM

Well, I said "an exam you know you're going to score a ten" and I guess even a nine or eight would have the same effect depending on your expectations, I saw some people getting depressed because they got a 9/10, so I kept the example clean.

But I guess, computer games would be another nice example, why dont we play on "God" mode and cheat all the time? And when is the best part of the game, reading VICTORY when it's over or while kicking ass and feeling the rush? In the old days, we used to release dopamine most while we were on the hunt, not while we were eating the mammoth. Artists feel most triggered while they are performing exceptionally, not when they hear claps afterwards. The claps are not useless of course, but they are not your dopamine peak.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted February 11, 2018 11:52 PM

artu said:
But I guess, computer games would be another nice example, why dont we play on "God" mode and cheat all the time? And when is the best part of the game, reading VICTORY when it's over or while kicking ass and feeling the rush?


It is funny you should mention this. When I was a kid I mainly played video games because I saw it as a challenge to solve, something I could try to tackle despite only being a kid.

When I completed my first game I remember being extremely happy. Perhaps it is correct I was more excited up to the finish, but to be honest, I don't think I even knew the game had finished before it said so on the screen, so I doubt it counts in that regard. The memory is very blurry though.

I later on played the doom series. I focused played doom 2 and I was too afraid of dying to not play with cheats.
I kept away from the game for a long time after trying it out initially, and when I first got the all weapons cheat I got to level 3(!), before being too scared to continue.
It was a huge relief when I got the godmode cheat, with which I ran around and killed monsters en masse. I remember I was shocked when I died at the final stage despite the cheat.

Anyway I wouldn't play doom 2 like that now, but I did enjoy it a lot back then, where I found it more interesting to see cool monsters and weapon and see cool monsters fight each other. (Doom 2 definitely wasn't a game I saw as a challenge unlike to other games).

Finally there is HoMM 2 & 3. When I first played HoMM, it was the second game with a friend and we used a code to give us black dragons at plenty. I don't recall finding that part particularly fun, but I do remember at one time I decided I wanted to see all the cut scenes, so "for the game story" I used to cheats to follow the plot to its conclusion.
Sadly it turned out my English skills at the time were much too poor to be able to do that.

Not saying I didn't enjoy actually playing the games, but I think that is something that I remember enjoying more later, once I got better at the games and figured out lots of stuff.
Before that I would simply try to find stuff I could exploit to victory, not caring I was doing a monkey's task trying to have fun.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 11, 2018 11:58 PM
Edited by artu at 23:58, 11 Feb 2018.

Well, to cheat your way through to see how things unfold is an exception. That's not how you always play and it's never as exciting as beating an actual challenge.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 12, 2018 12:09 AM

Well, no. Some people play to have fun, to feel great and disconnect from reality stress and real challenge, so a lot will find very enthralling to cheat if needed, and very frustrating to take it as a challenge if no other possibility. I played games (imperialism 2 for example) which were so insanely hard that I had to create my own cheating system and I had tons of fun finally beating the AI which, without cheats, was pure god and a source of additional stress.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 12, 2018 12:14 AM

That is yet another different situation, you are talking about insanely hard. If you dont have the time to master such a game, you can cheat. But our usual understanding of "fun by playing" is not when we cheat on God mode. It is when things require a challenge, the level of challenge may differ from person to person but a game is not a game when there is no challenge at all.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 12, 2018 12:23 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 00:30, 12 Feb 2018.

Every game can be mastered, because its a matter of knowing how is coded, so a matter of time and study. When we see chinese players completing famous Homm3 maps in half the time best players do, they use loopholes, know how to take advantage from AI flaws then spend an enormous time reloading and seeking for the best setup etc. But this also require such concentration that it not may always match the purpose of why someone sits down and plays a game. Myself I know that if it requires from me more energy than I actually am able to allow to, I will go on cheating without any shame. Of course, if the game still mesmerizes me, especially when cheating, such games are rare I think.

But you are right, going God mode is not very fun (well maybe for Duke nukem or Doom's games, once to go fast on carnage). My cheats mostly balance the chances vs AI so I can beat it without insane efforts (for example in Imperialism my main cheat was to send explorers in the new World, see where gold and diamonds were then reload and go directly there - which is something AI knows already so he goes straight also)  .

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