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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Removing Spells from game?
Thread: Removing Spells from game? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted February 28, 2018 02:14 AM

Removing Spells from game?

Anyone know how I could remove Town Portal from appearing at all in my games?  I know I can disable it for each random map but that doesn't stop Stronghold faction from obtaining it automatically when there shout building is built.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 28, 2018 06:17 AM
Edited by Elvin at 06:19, 28 Feb 2018.

Even when disabled? Not tried it with that particular spell but I have never seen a spell appear in a map where it is disabled. You could remove it from data's gamemechanics(not recommended to mess with the files too much ) or you could mod it to cost 999 mana if it bothers you that much.

PS if you do mess with the data files, keep in mind that you won't be able to connect to other players unless they have the exact same modifications.
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted February 28, 2018 07:06 AM
Edited by StrikerX at 09:04, 28 Feb 2018.

Elvin said:
Even when disabled? Not tried it with that particular spell but I have never seen a spell appear in a map where it is disabled. You could remove it from data's gamemechanics(not recommended to mess with the files too much ) or you could mod it to cost 999 mana if it bothers you that much.

PS if you do mess with the data files, keep in mind that you won't be able to connect to other players unless they have the exact same modifications.


Yes because Stronghold gives those automatically to chieftain type hero's it doesn't get checked if it's disabled in map editor.

Thanks, I figured it out and it's working.  Just changed the spell level to 10 instead of 4  Now I don't have to edit every random map and no more portaling for chieftains!

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2018 02:29 PM

StrikerX said:
Elvin said:
Even when disabled? Not tried it with that particular spell but I have never seen a spell appear in a map where it is disabled. You could remove it from data's gamemechanics(not recommended to mess with the files too much ) or you could mod it to cost 999 mana if it bothers you that much.

PS if you do mess with the data files, keep in mind that you won't be able to connect to other players unless they have the exact same modifications.


Yes because Stronghold gives those automatically to chieftain type hero's it doesn't get checked if it's disabled in map editor.

Thanks, I figured it out and it's working.  Just changed the spell level to 10 instead of 4  Now I don't have to edit every random map and no more portaling for chieftains!


Ah, so you're saying you edited the game files itself?  Cool.  Just remind me where that is haha - I wanted to experiment with alternative spell balancing myself to see what I could make of a few things (but the only balanced TP is a deleted TP).

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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 28, 2018 03:01 PM

You must have hated expert earth magic town portal
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2018 03:13 PM

Elvin said:
You must have hated expert earth magic town portal


In HoMM3, I remember getting bored with Random Maps because playing 7vs1 on Impossible was too easy.  I finally created a custom map that removed a number of spells.  Let's see if I can remember what I removed...

Visions (too useful)
Disguise (too useless)
Blind (too useful)
Slayer (very useless)
Dimension Door (undermines the H3 conceptual framework)
Town Portal (undermines the H3 conceptual framework)
Fly (undermines the H3 conceptual framework)
Hypnotize (worthless)
View Air (too useful)
Resurrection/Animate Dead (too useful)
Magic Mirror (too useless)


I'm sure I cut out others, but you see a theme - stuff that was so awful that it just penalized the player by not giving the player a spell that was actually worthwhile, or things so good that whoever gets it first wins (or just makes the game conceptually stupid) were spells I removed from the game.  I'll note that I DIDN'T remove Water Walk, and the reason is simple - Water Walk doesn't let you go places that you couldn't go normally: you still need to follow the same path and use the same amount of steps, but you save time from not getting on and off a boat.  THAT I consider okay.  But in a game like Heroes, I expect Mountains to be impassible - always, and my trip 7 days away from my town to take 7 days to get back, and that if I lose something, it stays dead (again - I didn't remove Sacrifice because you had to kill something to Resurrect something else - I'm not opposed to the concept as long as you genuinely PAY for it).

Yeah, there were other spells that are weaker than others (e.g. Inferno), but they weren't USELESS - it was actually fun to need to use Counterstrike and other spells more often because of cleaning up everything - but at the end of the day of course, H5.5's spell book is tons better, even though that could use some cleaning, too.

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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 28, 2018 07:07 PM

Gidoza said:


Yeah, there were other spells that are weaker than others (e.g. Inferno), but they weren't USELESS - it was actually fun to need to use Counterstrike and other spells more often because of cleaning up everything - but at the end of the day of course, H5.5's spell book is tons better, even though that could use some cleaning, too.

No rez and blind? I agree with removing spells that bypass a map's strategical significance. Obviously DD, fly and TP were game-breakers so I find the H5 way acceptable: Toned down and available to all.

But I still consider H5 spellbook inferior. H5 does not support multiple schools like H3 did and most will (and ought to)stick with 1 school. From your town you'll get 5 spells of that school(with the rest being useless without mastery) which is ok but H3 has a wealth of options by comparison.
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted February 28, 2018 09:11 PM

Gidoza said:

Ah, so you're saying you edited the game files itself?  Cool.  Just remind me where that is haha - I wanted to experiment with alternative spell balancing myself to see what I could make of a few things (but the only balanced TP is a deleted TP).


If your using MMH5.5 mod then unpak MMH55-Index, then go to Game mechanics, Spell, Adventure Spells folder.  Otherwise I think it's under Data.pak for original game.

Change <Level> to 10 instead of 4 or anything past 5 I guess.  The other adventure spells are there too if you wanted to remove those as well.

Another thing that's in the index.pak that I just found out.  Max heroes for any map is only set to 14.  You can change it in
GameMechanics/RPGStats/DefaultStats.xdb.  I changed mine to 64 since I always play with 8 factions on huge maps.

If you search for HireHeroesBase.  The 3rd line is the max heroes per map.  You can also change how many they hire at start (base) and per town.


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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted February 28, 2018 09:17 PM

Elvin said:
You must have hated expert earth magic town portal


Actually that was my must have skill for pretty much any hero. Resurrection / Town Portal / Mass Slow.  But sometimes I got tired of spells like Fly / Town Portal / Dimension door and took out the books / spells.

But in Homm 5 they use Town Portal like crack.  Any scent of another hero and poof there gone and it's so easy to use without any magic skill needed at all.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2018 09:40 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 22:09, 28 Feb 2018.

Elvin said:
Gidoza said:


Yeah, there were other spells that are weaker than others (e.g. Inferno), but they weren't USELESS - it was actually fun to need to use Counterstrike and other spells more often because of cleaning up everything - but at the end of the day of course, H5.5's spell book is tons better, even though that could use some cleaning, too.


No rez and blind? I agree with removing spells that bypass a map's strategical significance. Obviously DD, fly and TP were game-breakers so I find the H5 way acceptable: Toned down and available to all.

But I still consider H5 spellbook inferior. H5 does not support multiple schools like H3 did and most will (and ought to)stick with 1 school. From your town you'll get 5 spells of that school(with the rest being useless without mastery) which is ok but H3 has a wealth of options by comparison.


I can explain myself on this one.

No Blind - Too easy to abuse, especially against the AI.  Heroes 4's Blind was OK because it put the creature out of commission for 3 turns (same as H3 Unicorn) - a whole bunch of Blind spells just ended up being a situation where you could overwhelm the enemy troops with all your groups and then kill the Hero without letting him run.  As a Level 5 spell costing 30 mana, perhaps I'd be able to accept that - but as Level 2, it was just cheesy.

As for Resurrection - part of the joy of the game is accepting losses.  In H3, the AI definitely lost stuff in every engagement before meeting the player, whereas I can attack 20 Towns and lose nothing at all because of Resurrection.  Worse - if I have Blind, too, then I can keep one group blinded, resurrect everything, and then finish off the opponent.  That's kind of a no-no for me...in a big battle, I *should* be losing a fair bunch of my units, no exceptions.


However, I do hear you regarding the H5 spells.  I was considering this problem today when looking at Destructive Magic in particular and realizing that what H3 offered was always a mix of damage spells and buffs/debuffs of some sort in every school.

Now before I go on, let's be honest - H3 consisted mainly of using Slow or Haste, Bless, and the appropriate damage spell as needed.  I don't consider the options very wide there in 99.999% of situations.  Nevertheless, you're quite right - it was ideal to have at least more than one school, probably two most of the time, but not more than three, to have an accessible diversity that could adapt to a variety of situations.  I admit that H5's spellbook is less good at this.

Now back to my realization...something H3 did offer indeed was some spells that were actually useful without proficiency - for the most part, these were simply damage spells.  H5 and H5.5 have definitely lost some of that, but I'm at least making an attempt in a Word document right now to re-write some of the effects in a basic manner such that a spell might be useful without proficiency and there is still enough of a diversity to go around.  I can't help that all of Destructive Magic is a list of Destructive spells for which one picks the most appropriate damaging one for the situation...unless we collectively agree to re-work the spellbook, which I don't think would be a bad thing.

Basically, the system I want to experiment with would look something like this, as its first stage.

1.  A spell with no proficiency is 5/8 the power of a spell at Expert level - that means pretty much all zero-level spells have been buffed, and I can imagine they would have more usefulness.

2.  Most duration spells, with exceptions (like Frenzy, Hypnotize, Blind), would have infinite duration.  Spell power increases potency, but no matter what the effect will not disappear unless you dispel it or counter it (ideally, I would want to have Haste and Slow both active on a unit simultaneously rather than having a cancellation war, but I'm not sure if this is possible).

3.  I have a concern with the last patch where the word "Frenzy" is mentioned so many times that it raises my eyebrows.  I think the thing that broke the camel's back for me was the mention that Teleportation was increased to 20 Mana or whatever because of being able to teleport one's unit to counter Frenzy.  I have an issue with this:  a spell should have value in itself, it should not "merely" be a counter (hence the argument in the patch description of why Cleansing was changed).  If entire spells and strategies are being designed merely to dance around one particular spell in the game, I can only opine that that spell's design has something seriously wrong with it and either needs a complete revamp or needs to be removed.  That said, while I've inserted some new Values for Frenzy that will make it more friendly (cough), my inclination is to remove it entirely (which reminds me - on my H3 list, I forgot to mention that Berzerk was also removed in the games I played).  Hypnotize would probably have to go, too.  Blind could stay as a proper Level 5 spell with a longer duration (like a static 3 with minimal moving around from spell power).


All that said - what I'm trying to do is to both widen spell use outside of a particular school and also widen use within it.  That is to say - as present in H5.5 with super high spell power, you still don't get much past 3 turns of duration out of debuff or buffing spells; with infinite duration, you'll be able to cycle through a whole bunch of things and keep laying it on throughout the battle, and it will probably make a big difference.  Moreover, the potency of a spell outside your school profession will hopefully be useful enough in certain situations to be worth using.  I can't say, yet - nevertheless, it's worth a shot.

EDIT:  I should add to this the silly little observations that one makes when perusing the spell formulas.  Like for example, Endurance requires 6 Mana and Suffering requires 10 Mana, both when they raise defence/lower offence by the same amount.  If that isn't odd enough, consider that Suffering is in fact weaker -> while there's not really a cap to a defence value on a unit, Suffering can't drop a unit below 0.  So more than likely, Suffering will always have less of an effect.  Consequently, I'd be raising Endurance's cost to a point higher than Suffering's and giving Suffering a slight point advantage in the stat-altering department.

Quote:
Another thing that's in the index.pak that I just found out.  Max heroes for any map is only set to 14.  You can change it in
GameMechanics/RPGStats/DefaultStats.xdb.  I changed mine to 64 since I always play with 8 factions on huge maps.

If you search for HireHeroesBase.  The 3rd line is the max heroes per map.  You can also change how many they hire at start (base) and per town.


Lol I was the one who told you this in the other thread.  

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted February 28, 2018 11:09 PM
Edited by StrikerX at 23:10, 28 Feb 2018.

Gidoza said:

Lol I was the one who told you this in the other thread.  


Haha. Oops!

I've noticed a difference.  It didn't seem like they got many heroes before.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 01, 2018 08:00 AM

H5 blind is inferior to H3. It can be dispelled with a stray ballista shot or a simple stone spikes

Resurrection is a matter of numbers. I like the possibility of bringing units back just like I like vampirism(which is more balanced since it is tied to your doing damage). But it should by no means be able to counter enemy physical or spell damage one to one. As long as it's high level, it cannot be that heavily abused vs the AI.

H5 destructive has a more narrow focus to be sure but it greatly improved destructive gameplay with elemental effects and the damage/cost combinations. I often switch spells instead of just picking the one with the highest damage. Going further than that, I made single spell versions 25% stronger than their aoe. Ie icebolt 25% more dmg than frost ring, lightning 25% more than fireball. Last two are unrelated in elements but share the same formula so I tend to associate them.

You mention efficiency compared to proficiency, that bothered me as well. In most cases, I have 15% boost per mastery level for that reason. I have generally boosted untrained spells up to tier 3, for those who pick arcane intuition. Renamed to wisdom ofc ^^

Infinite duration is not a good idea. For one, a fully buffed army is insanely powerful and unless the opponent has the proper counters, the bonuses have an avalanche effect. Two, duration can be used as an extra magic class privilege. Both stronger and more durable spells. I like a base duration of 2 turns, with medium to high spellpower taking it further.

I like frenzy, the atb system allows you to move units out of the way or use convenient placement to reduce its effectiveness. Also, it was a brilliant idea to make it double orc rage Sure it will hurt but then you'll have to deal with a very, very pissed orc.

And you're right, H5 does not have 'balanced' costs between similar spells. That was one of the first things I changed. Whether stoneskin vs bloodlust or lightning bolt vs fireball(that can hit 3 or more targets for same dmg).

I also did not like 'spammable' spells. I mean, a necro could spam curse of the netherworld and not do anything else. There is no tactical value in such a spell. Armageddon is more interesting but casting it really depends at the pace the enemy is killing you. Plus armour breaking effect also applies on the caster so every unit on the field is stripped of its defense! I thought I'd take another approach and changed the fire perk order: Ignite unlocks fiery wrath which unlocks either master of fire(armour debuff) or fire protection. So if you plan to use armageddon, you can choose to have 50% protection from it. But you won't be applying both ignite and armour breaking. And if you had armour breaking and fire protection, you'd be shattering enemy defense AND protect yourself from its effects along with 50% reduced damage.

H5 has many possibilities, I greatly enjoy that.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted March 01, 2018 04:28 PM

Elvin said:
H5 blind is inferior to H3. It can be dispelled with a stray ballista shot or a simple stone spikes


That happened in H3 as well.  I often wouldn't purchase a Ballista because of that, and if for some reason I didn't have Dispel or Cure, then Frost Ring did the job just fine.

Quote:
Resurrection is a matter of numbers. I like the possibility of bringing units back just like I like vampirism (which is more balanced since it is tied to your doing damage). But it should by no means be able to counter enemy physical or spell damage one to one. As long as it's high level, it cannot be that heavily abused vs the AI.


I agree with you particularly on Vampirism - Vampirism is balanced precisely because there is a hard limit to how much recovery you can do, capped at how much you can kill.  I'm more forgiving about H5 Resurrection though because of how HP reduction occurs - that said, I'm not at all fond of the H5.5 variant of this and Animate Dead, and think it should be changed back.  100% with you though that whatever Resurrection restores should be less than otherwise similar damaging spells.

Quote:
H5 destructive has a more narrow focus to be sure but it greatly improved destructive gameplay with elemental effects and the damage/cost combinations. I often switch spells instead of just picking the one with the highest damage. Going further than that, I made single spell versions 25% stronger than their aoe. Ie icebolt 25% more dmg than frost ring, lightning 25% more than fireball. Last two are unrelated in elements but share the same formula so I tend to associate them.


Well, elemental effects only works if you're playing Dungeon.  Regarding damage - are you speaking of personal modifications, or something else?  A good rule is that speed should come at the cost of efficiency, which in this case I think H5.5 does mostly well - Eldritch Arrow gets the best damage maximum, but you'd have to cast it countless times to see those kind of results.

Quote:
Infinite duration is not a good idea. For one, a fully buffed army is insanely powerful and unless the opponent has the proper counters, the bonuses have an avalanche effect. Two, duration can be used as an extra magic class privilege. Both stronger and more durable spells. I like a base duration of 2 turns, with medium to high spellpower taking it further.


As I said, most situations default to Destructive Magic and the factors that lend themselves towards this are very numerous; the question isn't whether buffing spells are powerful or not, it's whether they're worth using at all in comparison to other things.  Without a reliable duration, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back in most situations.  When doing the math, I often can't justify buff/debuff spells instead of something else, even if I assumed their duration was infinite.  I don't think it would break as much as you think it would.

Quote:
I also did not like 'spammable' spells. I mean, a necro could spam curse of the netherworld and not do anything else. There is no tactical value in such a spell. Armageddon is more interesting but casting it really depends at the pace the enemy is killing you. Plus armour breaking effect also applies on the caster so every unit on the field is stripped of its defense! I thought I'd take another approach and changed the fire perk order: Ignite unlocks fiery wrath which unlocks either master of fire(armour debuff) or fire protection. So if you plan to use armageddon, you can choose to have 50% protection from it. But you won't be applying both ignite and armour breaking. And if you had armour breaking and fire protection, you'd be shattering enemy defense AND protect yourself from its effects along with 50% reduced damage.


Could you explain how to modify the skill trees?  More importantly - do you do this with H5.5 and how does the skill wheel reflect that?

Quote:
H5 has many possibilities, I greatly enjoy that.


I do also - I also value this conversation with you.    We agree on some things and not on others.  I personally think it would be of great value to have a whole sub-forum for H5.5 so we can expand our discussions, intentionally experiment with things, and come to tougher and more solid conclusions by having lots of threads to discuss things in rather than this packed space.  

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 01, 2018 05:15 PM

Maybe it didn't bother me much during H3 because I rarely bothered buying a ballista and aoe were of a higher tier.

On rez and animate dead, are you referring to x% hp drop being reduced with spellpower? I should mention that my tweaks are on normal 3.1 but given the amount of changes, it is way past that.

Elemental effects I meant stun, freeze and ignite. Between the amount of damage you can spread, the spell's cost and the effect it can trigger, there is a healthy variety in destructive casting. One would think that people would just spam implosion and meteor shower but this is not the case.

One good reason amassed buffs scare me are pristine unicorns. That and remembering original balance with 1 turn/sp and haven/sylvan/dwarven buff insanity. These days my numbers are closer to H5.5 and mass spells are no longer half-turn but still, I know what happens when they accumulate and your throw luck and morale in the mix. And I've played more than a little.

Quote:
Could you explain how to modify the skill trees?  More importantly - do you do this with H5.5 and how does the skill wheel reflect that?

Just 3.1, none of the changes would show on a skillwheel unless dredknight released a version I could edit. To make up for that, I edit the skill description to make it clear what unlocks what during level ups. For instance in soldier's luck description it now says:

UNLOCKS ELVEN LUCK AND DEAD MAN'S LUCK

As for the editing itself, there is a skill file in reftables. If I want an ability to be tier 1 in a corresponding skill, its type should be changed to STANDART_PERK and it should match the skill ID, let's say HERO_SKILL_OFFENCE. If an ability is advanced, its type should be SPECIAL_PERK and it should contain the skill prerequisites for each class. For instance..

<Item> <Class>HERO_CLASS_DEMON_LORD</Class>
<dependenciesIDs> <Item>HERO_SKILL_DEMONIC_FIRE</Item>                                                       <Item>HERO_SKILL_FRENZY</Item>
</dependenciesIDs>
</Item>

Needless to say, it is a pain in the @ss. Most abilities are mispelled or have a different name and a single misplaced letter or copy-paste can break the game Some might not work under a different skill or have side-effects. You might forget to change an advanced ability from STANDART to SPECIAL and it will appear to everyone regardless if it's in their pre-requisites or not. Or type DEFENCE instead of DEFENSE and the skill would disappear from the game. Fun times.

There is so much more to this game if you experiment a little One of my latest were the kamikaze imps that explode when their stack dies. Originally meant for fortress and called avenging flame, it now says suicide bomber And given that the map I am experimenting on is meant for quick final battles, I have the option to transform basic units into a second alternative upgrade.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted March 02, 2018 04:27 PM

Quote:
On rez and animate dead, are you referring to x% hp drop being reduced with spellpower? I should mention that my tweaks are on normal 3.1 but given the amount of changes, it is way past that.


Yes that's what I meant - I've taken that out and made it a static 20% just like in Vanilla H5 - that was a much better plan.  It means you can use Resurrection, but there's a limit to how much you can do it before it backfires completely.

Quote:
Elemental effects I meant stun, freeze and ignite. Between the amount of damage you can spread, the spell's cost and the effect it can trigger, there is a healthy variety in destructive casting. One would think that people would just spam implosion and meteor shower but this is not the case.


Sorry I misunderstood.  You're right - these spells do indeed have debuff power.  The point still is that if you have sufficient spell power to crush a group completely, there is absolutely no point in a debuff - any use of a damage spell needs to compared to the relative effects of a buff/debuff; if you can do basically a little above a third of the effect of a buff/debuff with straight damage, then it seems to me that direct damage wins the day in this situation every time.

Quote:
One good reason amassed buffs scare me are pristine unicorns. That and remembering original balance with 1 turn/sp and haven/sylvan/dwarven buff insanity. These days my numbers are closer to H5.5 and mass spells are no longer half-turn but still, I know what happens when they accumulate and your throw luck and morale in the mix. And I've played more than a little.


I've played more than a little as well.     Buffs are great, but they have limits: that limit is determined by the size of your army against spell power relative to destructive magic direct damage.  It's a delicate balance that I don't think we've quite pinned down just yet.  Part of a comment could be made about the Defence skill, though, as it's more effective than Attack right now when both are at 2.5% each - definitely defence needs to be lower, as the effect of Defence scales up with more points, while the effect of Attack scales down.  Unrelated, but anyways, the point is - the whole reason I'm investing in buffs/debuffs with spell power is for their effect to stay, not for it to vanish.  I'd rather have smaller effects with longer duration than large effects (I don't think the current effects are that significant, btw, but it depends) with shorter duration.  Just as a side-note - with the current attack % values, 12 Attack increase from Righteous Might (as Vanilla H5) is equivalent to the 6 attack increase that was present in H3 from Bloodlust; and while Bloodlust was useful, I quite frankly rarely used it because one could most of the time come up with better things.  I observe that the current situation is much the same.  It would be interesting however to run trial battles under the same situation by saving and re-loading several times to see the results.  But in any case - total numbers involved totally skews what kind of magic school or style one should use in every situation.

Quote:
Quote:
Could you explain how to modify the skill trees?  More importantly - do you do this with H5.5 and how does the skill wheel reflect that?

Just 3.1, none of the changes would show on a skillwheel unless dredknight released a version I could edit. To make up for that, I edit the skill description to make it clear what unlocks what during level ups. For instance in soldier's luck description it now says:

UNLOCKS ELVEN LUCK AND DEAD MAN'S LUCK

As for the editing itself, there is a skill file in reftables. If I want an ability to be tier 1 in a corresponding skill, its type should be changed to STANDART_PERK and it should match the skill ID, let's say HERO_SKILL_OFFENCE. If an ability is advanced, its type should be SPECIAL_PERK and it should contain the skill prerequisites for each class. For instance...

<Item> <Class>HERO_CLASS_DEMON_LORD</Class>
<dependenciesIDs> <Item>HERO_SKILL_DEMONIC_FIRE</Item>                                                       <Item>HERO_SKILL_FRENZY</Item>
</dependenciesIDs>
</Item>

Needless to say, it is a pain in the @ss. Most abilities are mispelled or have a different name and a single misplaced letter or copy-paste can break the game  Some might not work under a different skill or have side-effects. You might forget to change an advanced ability from STANDART to SPECIAL and it will appear to everyone regardless if it's in their pre-requisites or not. Or type DEFENCE instead of DEFENSE and the skill would disappear from the game. Fun times.


Ugh lol.

Quote:
There is so much more to this game if you experiment a little  One of my latest were the kamikaze imps that explode when their stack dies. Originally meant for fortress and called avenging flame, it now says suicide bomber  And given that the map I am experimenting on is meant for quick final battles, I have the option to transform basic units into a second alternative upgrade.


I'm pretty content playing the standard game - I just like tweaking things for an optimal kind of balance, options, and gameplay.  I realize that there's much more to the game and there's room for experimentation - for me though it's like going to a restaurant with too many menu options; it just overwhelms me and I don't know what to pick, and in the end it's almost impulsive and random.  I don't mind trying new things, but at the end of the day, I'd rather just have three very good menu options and stick with them on a regular basis or rotation.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 03, 2018 05:36 PM

Gidoza said:
The point still is that if you have sufficient spell power to crush a group completely, there is absolutely no point in a debuff - any use of a damage spell needs to compared to the relative effects of a buff/debuff; if you can do basically a little above a third of the effect of a buff/debuff with straight damage, then it seems to me that direct damage wins the day in this situation every time.

Practically, games before week 4 are not balanced and past week 6 require ridiculous amounts of spellpower for destructive to be worthwhile. Within week 4-5, even a warlock with 16-20 spellpower needs those effects.

Quote:
I've played more than a little as well.  

Sure but competitively with ratings? A lot of things can pass vs the AI or even friends but not so against tested online players. First thing I learned in toh was that little of what I knew applied in such an environment and up to that point I was feeling pretty confident in my skill.


Quote:
Buffs are great, but they have limits: that limit is determined by the size of your army against spell power relative to destructive magic direct damage.  It's a delicate balance that I don't think we've quite pinned down just yet.

That's not a matter of balancing spell formulae but when the encounter takes place and how many dwellings, towns and treasures there are available. That's where mapmaking comes in. My testing suggests that changing encounter levels by +-2 or army growth by +-1 week can really change the dynamics. The first is easy to tell why too, 2-3 level ups can mean one less passive might skill. A might army is significantly less effective without a luck or defense bonus.

Quote:
I realize that there's much more to the game and there's room for experimentation - for me though it's like going to a restaurant with too many menu options; it just overwhelms me and I don't know what to pick, and in the end it's almost impulsive and random.  I don't mind trying new things, but at the end of the day, I'd rather just have three very good menu options and stick with them on a regular basis or rotation.

I know the feeling. Once I considered giving a second alternative upgrade to all units - Then I realized that things would be confusing for someone to step in and make sense out of all these units But still, 1-2 extra alts per faction are nice to have. Take academy djinns, one is a random caster, the other is a luck manipulator and the other is a classic efreet with fire shield. Each has a clear role and offers something different to your gameplay.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted March 05, 2018 03:51 PM

Quote:
Practically, games before week 4 are not balanced and past week 6 require ridiculous amounts of spellpower for destructive to be worthwhile. Within week 4-5, even a warlock with 16-20 spellpower needs those effects.

That's not a matter of balancing spell formulae but when the encounter takes place and how many dwellings, towns and treasures there are available. That's where mapmaking comes in. My testing suggests that changing encounter levels by +-2 or army growth by +-1 week can really change the dynamics. The first is easy to tell why too, 2-3 level ups can mean one less passive might skill. A might army is significantly less effective without a luck or defense bonus.


You're right, it's not necessarily about balancing spell formulae, but it's certainly part of it - I definitely found the previous (weaker) versions of Destructive magic more reasonable.  I play various map types, but on the current one where all players have an expansion of the same town type and TWO of every dwelling type, at week 6 (with a minimal number of items, no less), I'm unable to come up with a good reason to use anything other than a Destructive spell ever, even against such huge armies.  I find that all the mini skill bonuses (like +2 spell power in seemingly every skill assortment, somewhere) just adds things up frighteningly fast in a way I could never account in Heroes 3 (my similar hero in H3 would probably have less than half the stats that this hero does - and H3 had items that offered WAY more primary stat points that H5 does; I can't figure out where all these bonuses are coming from and I've always found them overkill in H5.5 in particular).



Quote:
Sure but competitively with ratings? A lot of things can pass vs the AI or even friends but not so against tested online players. First thing I learned in toh was that little of what I knew applied in such an environment and up to that point I was feeling pretty confident in my skill.


When will I ever have the time to do that?


Quote:
I know the feeling. Once I considered giving a second alternative upgrade to all units - Then I realized that things would be confusing for someone to step in and make sense out of all these units But still, 1-2 extra alts per faction are nice to have. Take academy djinns, one is a random caster, the other is a luck manipulator and the other is a classic efreet with fire shield. Each has a clear role and offers something different to your gameplay.


I think just diversifying the units we presently have a little more would be nice.  Like we have things that are great diversity-wise such as Pit Fiends VS Pit Spawn, Squires VS Vindicators (though I usually use both), Dungeon Level 1 VS other Dungeon Level 1 (forgot the name at the moment...); but THEN you have other things like the Dungeons level 2 units, the different kinds of Haven level 1's - Sylvan Level 7, and others - yes, these units *ARE* different from one another - but not in the same way that a Pit Lord and a Pit Spawn are different from one another, so much that they are completely different units for completely different things.  An Emerald and a Crystal Dragon have different *flavours* you could say, but they're hardly different units, and yes, I perfectly understand why you might use one instead of the other in a given situation - that's not the same as an overarching game plan that requires one clearly distinctive unit over another clearly distinctive unit, and I think that this is something worth aiming for.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 05, 2018 05:29 PM

Gidoza said:
When will I ever have the time to do that?

We could arrange the occasional game on the duel map It's 10 mins preparation on average and then final battle.


Quote:
.. an overarching game plan that requires one clearly distinctive unit over another clearly distinctive unit, and I think that this is something worth aiming for.

One of my better examples of successful alt upgrades: Crossbowmen with full range and highest dmg vs longbowmen with full range + scattershot vs marksmen with full range + piercing shot. All of them shooters but with a different focus: one on heavier single dmg, one for 3x3 aoe at half dmg and one for massive short range dmg. (Ps the reason they all have full range is 1) scattershot normally does 1/4 dmg at long range, which is now 1/2. 2) marksmen do not have to sacrifice a huge amount of their long range dmg in return for their special. Less long range than crossbowmen, more short range.)

Or high druids for +5 hero spellpower(capped) plus light buffs, druid elders for destructive and druid summoner for hive, elementals and earthquake. No sieges on the map but earthquake still helps destroy summoned obstacles

Or inquisitors for light magic, zealots for dark magic and battle priests for ranged retaliation and improved stats.

All useful under different circumstances.

And yes, not really feeling the fury alternative. It just gains hp at the cost of dmg and init but I haven't found a particularly satisfying solution.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted March 06, 2018 04:58 PM

Quote:
We could arrange the occasional game on the duel map It's 10 mins preparation on average and then final battle.


Oh yeah I forgot about duel maps.     Haven't actually tried those yet but I'd be willing.    I'm so used to playing normal games (which of course I like) that I forgot about duels.  Fancy new feature.  


Quote:
One of my better examples of successful alt upgrades: Crossbowmen with full range and highest dmg vs longbowmen with full range + scattershot vs marksmen with full range + piercing shot. All of them shooters but with a different focus: one on heavier single dmg, one for 3x3 aoe at half dmg and one for massive short range dmg. (Ps the reason they all have full range is 1) scattershot normally does 1/4 dmg at long range, which is now 1/2. 2) marksmen do not have to sacrifice a huge amount of their long range dmg in return for their special. Less long range than crossbowmen, more short range.)

Or high druids for +5 hero spellpower(capped) plus light buffs, druid elders for destructive and druid summoner for hive, elementals and earthquake. No sieges on the map but earthquake still helps destroy summoned obstacles

Or inquisitors for light magic, zealots for dark magic and battle priests for ranged retaliation and improved stats.

All useful under different circumstances.

And yes, not really feeling the fury alternative. It just gains hp at the cost of dmg and init but I haven't found a particularly satisfying solution.


This is good - my point was though that for those sets that are quite boring we should have an H5.5 subforum with an actual community discussion to hammer out adjustments rather than just having interesting choices being relegated to personal mods.  Personal mods will always exist, and that's fine - my point is simply that H5.5 can do better in this department and why not actively participate in putting that together?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 06, 2018 07:53 PM
Edited by Elvin at 20:11, 06 Mar 2018.

Gidoza said:
I'm so used to playing normal games (which of course I like) that I forgot about duels.

Ubi duel mode was nowhere near good enough so here we are Fixed skills/artifacts greatly reduce replayability.

Gidoza said:
This is good - my point was though that for those sets that are quite boring we should have an H5.5 subforum with an actual community discussion to hammer out adjustments rather than just having interesting choices being relegated to personal mods.  Personal mods will always exist, and that's fine - my point is simply that H5.5 can do better in this department and why not actively participate in putting that together?

H5.5 is magno's vision and it is perfect as it is. Even so I will agree on most accounts and disagree on others. Furthermore, H5.5 is a full game mod that has to take into account all phases of the game. My skillwheel has no need for adventure map skills and my balance focuses on 5 weeks of army strength. Also, a fixed army size means I can manipulate the bonus of high druids and goblin defilers which cannot happen in a full game. Different scope and focus.
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