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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe
Thread: Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 26, 2018 10:56 PM

Minion said:
Russia[...]


Well, ok, thats one side of the coin. Now, what you read about Putin which is positive and explains why so many Russians trust him?

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 26, 2018 11:10 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 23:14, 26 Mar 2018.

Quote:
Russia does not have fair elections by any stretch of the imagination, it brutally murders journalists, Putins political opponents and yes also defected spies.

You forgot that Putin also eats babies and carries out 10 simultaneous assassinations on different parts of the globe all the while plotting to turn everything past the Polish border into a radioactive wasteland.  
Seriously now, every sane person is fully aware that Russia is a corrupt post-Soviet mockery of a democracy with autocratic tendencies ever since Putin took over the government but for some reason the same sane people forget that the rest of the world can also be full of **** if it wants to be. "The Russians did it!" is getting really old and in this case nobody even bothers to think what would their country, ruled by cherubs and saints apparently, do in an identical situation. Say, double-agent John Doe gives away the positions of all the US submarines to the Reds Russians and is about to tell them about secret bases here and there, etc., the infiltrated US agents get a chance to silence him but suddenly they start thinking about their immortal souls and let him do his treasonous stuff? And that is even if you just assume that "The Russians did it" is not a propaganda bull**** for once.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 26, 2018 11:27 PM

Well, Putin certainly did some good to his country but it's not like there is any opposition.

Whichever the scenario is, expelling diplomats under nothing more than assumptions (there is no evidence at all) is not going to make things go any better.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Soli deo gloria
posted March 26, 2018 11:31 PM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 00:09, 27 Mar 2018.

Bad enough listening to this **** on the radio nonstop at work for the past few weeks (and how it developed from just random factless blame throwing straight at Russia). They're trying waaaaaay too hard and it hurts, this is the worst pretext I've ever seen. Best part is the double agent part has not been mentioned AT all over the radio, nor any explanation, just decisions and statements.

Not that we need to know reasoning, we're just brainless peons that laugh when we're told to, soon we'll be so good at it we'll fear to stop lest the whip crack at our back.

Even if Russia had a hand in it (which is probable, but beside the point), it should be a bilateral incident, not the entire Western goonsquad heading down a frightfully stupid path. The fact that a nerve agent was used as well, either Russia is being incredibly dumb and showy with the way they kill, but highly doubtful, the chemical agent is the same BS we used plenty of times and secures multilateral support...IF it can be proven Russia did it, which is what makes me so anxious, no proof but we're already all hail Mary for this ****.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 27, 2018 12:04 AM
Edited by Minion at 13:20, 27 Mar 2018.

@Zeno. No matter which state attempts to murder people, I would be strongly against it. Heck I would be more vocal about it if it were a western nation behind it.

Edit: @Sal. Not sure what you are asking to be honest. Putin is the sole unquestioned leader of Russia, to his merit the country has been alot more stable since he came to power and it has seen decent economic growth. I would claim though that it would be greater if he and the oligarchs of Russia wouldn't hoard most of the wealth of the country. Also Putin has been in power for some 20 years now, it is easy to see why people there don't really even consider other options. Maybe people wouldn't even vote for someone else, who knows, but he jails his political opponents so come on. It is hard to say how popular he is in reality.
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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 02:11 AM

i'm more on maurice's side with this, but i call full false flag, instead of only suggesting the possibility. if this had anything to do with espionage, all countries already know the rules on that. you don't disclose espionage(until years down the road, where intel regarding said espionage is no longer useful), and spies themselves are fully expendable(being that they're primary targets for whoever they're spying on, and that they and espionage itself is dedicated to secrecy). and, if that many nations reacted the way they did to a supposed covert action on THEIR part that was foiled, it was never espionage in the first place.

both points easily say "false flag!", 100%. absolutely no question. the big point to take away here, was the removal of the russian diplomats. stay focused on that, and you'll know why.

it's a move of aggression, most certainly. rising hostility, most certainly. what the end game here is, is anyone's guess, though. it could be an attempt to provoke russia into an aggressive response, where they would seem like the bad guys; and thus the nations that expelled their diplomats, could "defend themselves in righteousness, especially since it was russia that attacked their spies". or it could just simply be a move to keep russia at arm's length, and let them know who their allies are/aren't. as if they didn't already know that.

i go with the former, and i hope i'm wrong. probably not, though. everyone keeps taking serious pokes at one another, and eventually there's going to be a war on everyone's hands.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 27, 2018 08:13 AM

Minion said:
@Zeno. No matter which state attempts to murder people, I would be strongly against it. Heck I would be more vocal about it if it were a western nation behind it.
Then you are strongly against all states. Perhaps you're a (not-so-)latent anarchist.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 27, 2018 01:39 PM

Minion said:
Not sure what you are asking to be honest. Putin is the sole unquestioned leader of Russia, to his merit the country has been alot more stable since he came to power and it has seen decent economic growth.


Why the country is more stable and why it has seen decent economic growth since he is in power (despite continuous economical sanctions), it would be interesting to develop and I was curious what you read about. Notice that while you claim to give me positive thoughts about Putin, your commentary still shifts to negative immediately after laying some platitudes. This guy has 80% of russians supporting him, and even if 25% of it was trickery and cheat, still he would have twice more popular support than ANY of our western nations leaders. Yet he is painted at evil and the anti-democrat symbol.

Minion said:

It is hard to say how popular he is in reality.


Not at all, ask russians people around.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 27, 2018 03:23 PM

I've recently read an interview with one of our "former" intelligence officers where he claims that such an assassination attempt is too amateurish in its execution to be considered a deliberate Russian operation. His arguments are that it was carried out in public, creating a lot of noise and collateral damage, with a substance which is far from optimal for a task like that and in the end the intended victims are still alive despite their condition. He said that there are chemicals used by the secret services which can be applied to the victim just by patting him or her on the back which seemingly won't do anything immediately but the victim will get a heart attack or something similarly lethal out of nowhere a few days later - and that's how you kill someone uncomfortable. Then it's the official UK reaction that "It's gotta be Putin!" which was ready almost immediately, no real investigation results yet (the preliminary official reports were ready around a week later). The whole thing, he concludes, looks like a classical defaming operation carried out by a third party (the US, Ukraine, possible even the UK).
Even though I'm not convinced that the intelligence services are immune to stupid decisions and execution (no pun here) and real life is not like the movies where everything works flawlessly, right now such a position makes sense. The usual suspects aligned  almost overnight to point at Russia and start with the "penalties" for something which nobody has yet proven beyond reasonable doubt and something which nobody would care about if the victim wasn't a former GRU officer in exile, i.e. a prime PR material. Whatever the truth is,  there are now 20+ states which publicly claim that Russia is to blame, among them some of the most powerful in the world, so there will be 20+ states to apologize if someone proves to the world that the Russians actually didn't do it - which is why there will never be such a proof.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 03:52 PM

well, it's not like they're going to find evidence that they're correct in their "accusations", either. for instance, apparently nothing was found on the trump/russia collusion investigation. and still, you have people claiming otherwise; either because they're willfully ignorant and enjoy taking bait(or having their reality fed to them with a spoon by their oppressors); or because they'd just rather lie and feel good about themselves or their comfort-bubble reality, than face the simple truth.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2018 05:08 PM

UK doesn't really have any real proof. They did not catch any suspects. They did not do a real investigation either. They could have tried to dig for more info, but didn't. They didn't hand Russia a sample so they could analyze it. They closed the investigation just 10 days or so after it began. They simply jumped on the opportunity to blame Russia and close the affair.

Fun fact : that Russian gas was created in the previous century. 1980's or 1970's I believe? Such an old gas could be recreated by a powerful country if they wanted, if they had just one sample of it.

Now, Canada is expelling a few Russian diplomats as well. The Canadian government will pretend that this is a tough move against an injustice, and not a weak move of following the American example, and this tough message will be delivered by a crying Trudeau on live TV.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 05:22 PM
Edited by fred79 at 17:25, 27 Mar 2018.

Kayna said:
Fun fact : that Russian gas was created in the previous century. 1980's or 1970's I believe? Such an old gas could be recreated by a powerful country if they wanted, if they had just one sample of it.


now, that could actually be why all these countries are reacting the way they are. if russian-manufactured gas was indeed used, then even if russia had sold the gas to another country previously(which wouldn't be that big of a stretch to believe, really), they would still be the source of it; and could easily be held responsible.

but then again, if that gas had been manufactured that far back, it could have easily been reverse-engineered by russia's opposition, and kept handy for just such an event; for strategic reasons. it could have been an "ace" card up anyone's sleeve.

regardless, the overwhelming evidence still points to "false flag".


edit: lol, didn't read the second sentence that i had quoted(i had only been attempting to quote the first sentence). i'm just repeating what you said, kayna.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2018 05:49 PM
Edited by Kayna at 17:53, 27 Mar 2018.

I know little of Russia. All I really know is that being fed only negative opinions on TV for decades in a row is called propaganda.

The western world allied itself with countries worse than Russia in the past, as long as it served their interest. The amount of evil the Russian government does isn't the real factor. The real factor is that Russia simply doesn't play ball. Russia doesn't cooperate. Russia is extremely independent, doesn't take snow from nobody, doesn't flinch to leverage, even if said leverage is impressive, and that's what's truly bugging the western world.

Or maybe I should just say the American government.

Reaching the government level of the ladder requires a lot of boot licking, a true sycophant of the utmost level. The ones that makes it on top are those that can understand what the powerful wants and give it to them without even asking what they want ; it conceals the power play even more. The UK government might have well followed that shadow sycophant play and blamed Russia automatically just because everybody's blaming Russia for everything for I don't know how many years.

And seriously, try to get rid of that posturing grand ma threatening nuclear war with Russia. That dumb idiot thot don't know --- about when to talk and when to shut up, and we can now safely compare her to Trump and Kim Jung Un.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 06:07 PM

Kayna said:
The western world allied itself with countries worse than Russia in the past, as long as it served their interest. The amount of evil the Russian government does isn't the real factor. The real factor is that Russia simply doesn't play ball. Russia doesn't cooperate. Russia is extremely independent, doesn't take snow from nobody, doesn't flinch to leverage, even if said leverage is impressive, and that's what's truly bugging the western world.


russia is nearly the same as any other country, dude. they've sided with some pretty bad people as well, to their own ends. don't forget what they've done, or who they've sold arms to. they're no more innocent than anyone else. but i do respect that the russian military/government doesn't portray themselves as "innocent and honorable" hypocrites like the western world(from what i've seen, anyway). even their populace seem to be more in-tune with what's really going on, and aren't taken to believing bullsnow pushed down the tubes like the majority of the western world tends to be.

if nothing else, i respect honesty.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2018 06:12 PM

I'm well aware that Russia isn't a goodie goodie country.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 06:20 PM

sorry; i was getting that impression. you haven't been around in so long, i've forgotten your entire stance on these things.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted March 27, 2018 06:23 PM

this poisoning is the same ballpark as the murder of Boris Nemtsov.
difference is, that Nemtsov was very into playing with the girls working the oldest known profession, and those are controlled by one group in Muscovy - the Russian Mafia.
so what happened, most likely, is they whacked him because he was heavily in debt to them or something.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 27, 2018 07:23 PM

fred79 said:
for instance, apparently nothing was found on the trump/russia collusion investigation


When did the investigation end?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted March 27, 2018 07:30 PM

not that long ago, from what i've read about it. can't give you an exact date, tho.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 27, 2018 07:40 PM

That is because the investigation is still very much going on.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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