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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Which Heroes game had the best spell system
Thread: Which Heroes game had the best spell system This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
AncientDruids
AncientDruids


Known Hero
BEware THe DRuids
posted April 05, 2018 06:27 PM

@fidanas Could you give any examples?

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fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted April 05, 2018 06:46 PM

Hmmm...for example, spellpower affects duration of blessing/cursing spells more clever.
No more 12 spellpower = 12 turns of haste
Might heroes is almost useless to cast spells against a spellcaster. Even if they reached lever 20 and above, they seemed to be way too vanilla in magic aspects.
Spellcasters suffers from power and mana in early game. They can't clear mines and local areas easily. But as game progresses, their magic gets better and better, and in great fights with high level AI heroes, the magic really means buisness, not just the bulk number of troops.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 05, 2018 08:09 PM

With all its flaws, H5's over any other so far. Too bad the ones that followed weren't an improvement. Elemental schools with skills on the side that improve spell casting would be the way to go in my book.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 05, 2018 08:23 PM

Stevie said:
Elemental schools with skills on the side that improve spell casting would be the way to go in my book.


That's almost like H4 system. If you called the alignment schools elementals.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 05, 2018 08:32 PM

For some reason, I don't remember H4 all that fondly.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 05, 2018 10:32 PM

Because game didn't work properly...
In any case, H4 skill system was the best, specially cause it was made with the idea that you would have two or more heroes in each army.
With just nine skills from which one is needed in all heroes, you have no useless skills and at the same time need a lot of effort to be good at everything. Much harder then to get level 24 in Heroes III and much more insightful then Heroes V where many skills and percs where simply absurd, like learning Attack so you could learn Tactics, if you wanted to use a few more large stacks in battle or learning Leadership so you could get Diplomacy and Herald of Death on Necromancers, etc...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 07, 2018 09:24 PM

Nothing that could not be improved by tweaking level up options. The trees themselves were pretty alright and could become better if you check H5.5. Base was good, flaws could be improved, high replayability.

But there aren't many builds you could use in H4. Sure, you could play a little with advanced classes but not so much with skill combinations. Always grandmaster in main skill, possibly your side skill(ie resurrection, summoning) and.. One more skill? Two underdeveloped ones? Always combat? Plus all magic skill trees the same.
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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2018 09:29 PM

That had more to do with H4 making skills require 5 points to fully invest in. If it were only 3 that would have more easily opened things up for messing with hero classes.

It worked well in the campaign since heroes carried through the missions and it made leveling them up a joy the entire campaign, but for pvp purposes it worked against it since unlocking the final tier of a spell school required so much effort...kind of makes me wonder if a mod of this sort exists, actually.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 09, 2018 10:12 PM

Even if you had 3 masteries and perks with one upgrade each, I don't see how that makes the system special. All magic skills still the same. Compared to H3, all it does is require more levels for the same thing(since H3 masteries included mana reduction and spell efficiency) while removing the need for a 'wisdom' skill.

Reasonable to be sure but it doesn't make magic skills unique like H5, 6 or 7. For instance, H6 air magic had an ability to daze with lightning spells. H6 water had one that increased chilled duration and ice breaker that gave a lucky attack vs frozen enemies. H7 magic had similar effects that fleshed out the school more. Arguably the skill system in H6 and H7 has issues but that was a good point. H5 is still better and mostly suffers from spell masteries being a potential unknown when they appear. Plus, the skillwheel complexity suggests that even 4 results in level ups might have been low. At least if we consider a random skill system. But with both fixed, we could have a solid skill system that supports different builds, even if two people picked the same magic skills.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 09, 2018 11:07 PM

Looking at my previous post I have to admit one thing I left behind, I never even tried Heroes 6 and 7, so what I said is only valid for II, III, IV and V. Sorry.

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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 10, 2018 12:06 AM
Edited by Mystic_Genie at 00:20, 10 Apr 2018.

I wouldn't worry too much. Considering how vastly different the heroes game got...and honestly how dated some of them are (thinking about heroes 1 here), I personally believe that anyone that finished all of them did it for completionist sake more than anything.

Speaking of, I want to inquire about heroes 7 since I've still yet to play it. Was there any reason limiting the spells of a certain level that the hero could learn to a main skill was so poorly received in heroes 7? Was the idea itself bad or was it the implementation? Like I tried to ask earlier, it seemed odd to me it required a new main skill (arcane knowledge) instead of being attached to the existing ones like spell power.

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AncientDruids
AncientDruids


Known Hero
BEware THe DRuids
posted April 10, 2018 12:43 AM

@Mystic_Genie What do you mean? Only two people commented on H7 spell system in this topic, why do you think it's not well received?

Prime skills should pertain to one category. Dumping spell learning on Magic doesn't seem like a good idea because then, there wouldn't be weak spells and strong spells. Only low-level spells and really strong high-level spells. I don't think that it's a good way to go.

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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 10, 2018 09:06 AM
Edited by Mystic_Genie at 09:08, 10 Apr 2018.

I got the impression it was poorly received through doing some light research on the matter.

Granted the thread was a bit back and forth, but the fact that this was my top search at least hinted that it was kind of divisive.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 10, 2018 10:41 AM

Ebonheart said:
I would say H3 would have the best spell system if all mass-spells were moved to level 3-5 and Blind to level 3.
With that said, I believe Heroes 4 currently has the best spell system.


I also believe h4 has the best spell system. I see your point with h3's, but personally I love it just as much the way it is. People say it's broken but they play(ed) the hell out of it.

Elvin said:
Arguably the skill system in H6 and H7 has issues but that was a good point.


Whatever that means.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 10, 2018 11:22 AM
Edited by Elvin at 11:23, 10 Apr 2018.

Oh it was poorly received alright. The team realized that increasing magic schools to 7 was a hardly practical affair so they changed the system from a basic/adv/exp magic skill teaching lvl 2/3/4 spells(of the same school) to each level of mastery giving arcane knowledge.

Technically, the solution was better than the initial crap. But there really was no reason to make players keep track of arcane knowledge to see what they can learn. Also the way they made it, getting expert in a skill you could not learn top tier magic of that magic. You had to get basic in another magic skill to get the required points. Or get two magic skills in advanced?


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 16, 2018 11:23 PM

Pretty easy question: Heroes 5 had the best magic system.

Was it perfect? No. It was just better than all the rest. And btw. I disagree that getting multiple magic schools in H5 was not "possible", it was both possible and viable in more than a few situations.

What should be fixed about H5 magic system?
- More spells. 4 for each tier for each school would be suitable.
- AOE effects instead of mass spells.
- Area size of AOE spells should depend on spell power.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 17, 2018 05:36 AM

alcibiades said:
And btw. I disagree that getting multiple magic schools in H5 was not "possible", it was both possible and viable in more than a few situations.

Maybe when it came to dark for factions that could not otherwise get it. Otherwise, just academy and necro and even then, the latter was better off with power of speed/endurance and one magic school. As far as multiplayer goes, possible but not really viable.
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Mystic_Genie
Mystic_Genie


Adventuring Hero
posted April 17, 2018 09:59 AM

alcibiades said:

- AOE effects instead of mass spells.
- Area size of AOE spells should depend on spell power.

Dude...that legit sounds amazing...

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rafter
rafter

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2018 01:15 PM

I think the best spell System was part of Heroes 2, Heroes 3 and Heroes 4.
1) It is good when your hero need 1 or 2 level up, to cast all spells. For heroes 2 and 3, the heroe has the skill- Wisdom. In Heroes 4 that was Bad. Your hero need to level up 20- 30 levels to cast all spells. So tha game was for mighty heroes, not magic.
2)At Heroes 3, there are many creatures who may paralyze enemy troops- Stone gaze, Paralyze, Blind, Confusion. But the heroes might cast only Blind. It was bad. Even, at Heroes 2 the heroes may cast 2 spells- Paralyze and Blind. So more paralyzing spells for heroes are better than only one.
4) Sometimes, I may want to cast single spell- Slow, or Mass slow or Dispel, or Mass Dispell. We must have all these spells. I rarely took the skill- Water magic in Heroes 3, because of that- the Dispel spell become Mass Dispel and all troops on battlefield lose their bonuses from spells.
5) It is good when a AI hero receive Bonus troops in his castles and put some defensive troop in his towns like Heroes 2. It was too easy in Heroes 3, where the enemy heroes did not put any defense. So  a human player may capture every computer's castle with small army.
6) I like the graphic of Heroes 2, 3 and 4. I dont like 3D graphic of Heroes 5 and 6.
7) I think the Wait option must be a different skill( like Pathfinding, Logistics, Tactics). Because, if a creature is fast, that dont meant it will wait to attack last.
8) It will be goood, if the player may choose for his hero to participate in his combat( like Heroes 4 ) or stay outside the battle.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 22, 2018 05:55 AM
Edited by Elvin at 05:55, 22 May 2018.

1) Technically untrue, as you do not need all spells to be effective. But it would have been better with much less.

2) That's a matter of odds and duration though. 20% was high enough to be a threat but hardly a guarantee. More disabling spells would be welcome but not because units have similar effects.

4)Or you could change the way dispel works? No other reason to want to cast single instead of mass in H3. Mass spells were overpowered and could use some tweaks anyway.

7) Eh that's too basic an action to unlock with a specific skill. And ofc a fast unit would want to attack last, see archangels and archdevils At any rate, the H5 initiative bar works better. You wait, you spend half your turn so fast units wait less than others.
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